IH leviathans banned at local event

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**catbarf**

SeanDrake wrote:
I feel dirty saying this but tbh it’s not really an issue with GW’s rules so much that it’s the frankly terrible itc rules becoming standard that causes a lot of these issues.

If you play the game as intended with actual meaningful objectives these huge point sink terror weapons are much less of an issue if there actually an issue at all.

Sometimes I look at the outrage online and wonder if it was started by some tourney player who can see a hard counter to there current point and click list.

ITC may exacerbate some of these problems with its kill-focused objectives- and if you have seen my posts, you know I am not exactly a fan of ITC- but the issues with the IH don't come from ITC.

There's only so much 'play the objective' you can do when an enemy unit is able to remove your objective-grabbing units with impunity. And while the Leviathan is definitely scary, that's not even touching on what Repulsors can do. They can outrun your infantry, park on objectives so you have to deal with them, and still be nearly as difficult to kill. The Leviathan can be deployed in addition to those to provide a nigh-unkillable firebase.

40K is not a game where an army can focus solely on objectives, to the exclusion of killing, and win. Movement distances and effective engagement ranges are too long compared to the size of the table for avoiding the big scary things to be a viable strategy. You can maneuver to try to reduce the amount of damage you take, and you can prioritize to leave the really tough stuff for last if needed, but if you don't have a way to kill something in your opponent's list it's an uphill battle for sure.

We've already seen this with Knight spam. If you can't take out Knights, 'just play the objective' is not a viable strategy, regardless of what mission set you're using.

**Mr Morden**

Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

**catbarf**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
All these space marine plebs sad we won’t let them keep broken units. Oh well.

I have a Malanthrope, Stone-Crusher Carnifex, Leman Russ Annihilator, and entire fething Death Korps of Krieg army. How many of those have you seen showing up in tournaments?

The balancing on Forge World models is all over the place, but CA17 jacked up the prices (outright doubling in some instances) on nearly all of the overperformers, to the point where they're a friendly game choice and little else. Besides the Leviathan I struggle to think of any FW models that are must-haves and actually represent a balance problem for the game.

**SeanDrake**

Ok once again FW no longer write rules for 40k that is all now done by the main studio and that has been the case for quite some time.

If you feel this is incorrect your welcome to email FW about whichever model touched you they will advise you to contact GW.

As per my comments about the ITC I thought that was widely known, if you play on planet bowling ball with the main objective to kill as much of the opposing force as possible then these units people freak out about can certainly have an impact.

However play on a decent board with some scenery and using objectives and suddenly a lot of these units are just not worth there points. as suddenly killing stuff is not the be all and end all of the game and you break up line of site and hinder movement of a model which in this case has 8” of movement.

**Xenomancers**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

They will likely adjusts the levi in CA to make it non viable for all non ironhands...typically this is how all GW fixes are after a unit has caused so much damage it gets gutted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

**Crimson**

SeanDrake wrote:
Ok once again FW no longer write rules for 40k that is all now done by the main studio and that has been the case for quite some time.

But this was not the case for the FW indices, which do contain most of the current FW rules, including the Leviathan.

FW writers have an unfortunate tendency to try to one up the studio rules (perhaps this is why they are no longer allowed to write stuff for 40K.) Why does FW's relic Contemptor have two more wounds and better save than the studio one? And aren't all Contemptors basically relics, why is there even relicer version? And the Leviatahan is a completely culmination of this. It is better than any studio dreads on an insane degree. better WS, BS, S, T, W and Sv than Redemptor, the largest and most powerful studio dread. And on top of that it has 4+ invulnerable save and crazy powerful guns. Yes, it costs more points, but this sort of rules just do not need to exist, it is like some sort of a Primarch of dreadnoughts. Nerf it hard and then lower the point cost somewhat.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Ok once again FW no longer write rules for 40k that is all now done by the main studio and that has been the case for quite some time.

But this was not the case for the FW indices, which do contain most of the current FW rules, including the Leviathan.

FW writers have an unfortunate tendency to try to one up the studio rules (perhaps this is why they are no longer allowed to write stuff for 40K.) Why does FW's relic Contemptor have two more wounds and better save than the studio one? And aren't all Contemptors basically relics, why is there even relicer version? And the Leviatahan is a completely culmination of this. It is better than any studio dreads on an insane degree. better WS, BS, S, T, W and Sv than Redemptor, the largest and most powerful studio dread. And on top of that it has 4+ invulnerable save and crazy powerful guns. Yes, it costs more points, but this sort of rules just do not need to exist, it is like some sort of a Primarch of dreadnoughts. Nerf it hard and then lower the point cost somewhat.

One is a Relic and the other isn't. It's in the name. Duh.

Also based on the fact the codex Contemptor is garbage and the Relic one is basically decent at best I don't see your point.

**Ice_can**

Xenomancers wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

They will likely adjusts the levi in CA to make it non viable for all non ironhands...typically this is how all GW fixes are after a unit has caused so much damage it gets gutted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

Please point out the FW stuff in eldar flyer spam lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus BA plus Castellen lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus triple Knights lists?

Most of the ones that were spammed were when GW did a GW level dumb dumb move like making atema pattern hellhounds which had a 0 point weapon cost the same as a codex one because they didn't even bother to check WTAF they were doing.

Also if Leviathans are so broken why are you always complaining marines suck and couldn't win a fight with a wet paper bag, then band wagoning that they are the most broken thing in all 8 editions?

**Xenomancers**

Crimson wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Ok once again FW no longer write rules for 40k that is all now done by the main studio and that has been the case for quite some time.

But this was not the case for the FW indices, which do contain most of the current FW rules, including the Leviathan.

FW writers have an unfortunate tendency to try to one up the studio rules (perhaps this is why they are no longer allowed to write stuff for 40K.) Why does FW's relic Contemptor have two more wounds and better save than the studio one? And aren't all Contemptors basically relics, why is there even relicer version? And the Leviatahan is a completely culmination of this. It is better than any studio dreads on an insane degree. better WS, BS, S, T, W and Sv than Redemptor, the largest and most powerful studio dread. And on top of that it has 4+ invulnerable save and crazy powerful guns. Yes, it costs more points, but this sort of rules just do not need to exist, it is like some sort of a Primarch of dreadnoughts. Nerf it hard and then lower the point cost somewhat.

This made me laugh a bit. Primarch of dreads. It is...Sad but true.

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:
Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

You heard it folks, everything wrong with 40k is Forge World's fault. Nothing that didnt come from them is broken.

Wait a second.

If FW is the root cause, does that mean that the Iron Hands are fine if they dont include Forge World units?

**Crimson**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

One is a Relic and the other isn't. It's in the name. Duh.

But in the fluff all Contemptors are ancient priced relics of bygone era, so that is already reflected in the studio profile.

Also based on the fact the codex Contemptor is garbage and the Relic one is basically decent at best I don't see your point.

FW made a just better version of the codex unit for no reason. They should have just used the codex profile and added the extra weapon options. And if the Contemptor is underpowered, then that is for the studio team to fix.

**Not Online!!!**

Sterling191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

You heard it folks, everything wrong with 40k is Forge World's fault. Nothing that didnt come from them is broken.

Wait a second.

If FW is the root cause, does that mean that the Iron Hands are fine if they dont include Forge World units?

I believe he hasn't quite the grasp to count yet.

**Xenomancers**

Ice_can wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

They will likely adjusts the levi in CA to make it non viable for all non ironhands...typically this is how all GW fixes are after a unit has caused so much damage it gets gutted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

Please point out the FW stuff in eldar flyer spam lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus BA plus Castellen lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus triple Knights lists?

Most of the ones that were spammed were when GW did a GW level dumb dumb move like making atema pattern hellhounds which had a 0 point weapon cost the same as a codex one because they didn't even bother to check WTAF they were doing.

Also if Leviathans are so broken why are you always complaining marines suck and couldn't win a fight with a wet paper bag, then band wagoning that they are the most broken thing in all 8 editions?

Not sure why you think some anecdotes make a point here. Everyone here has conceded GW also makes broken rules. They are just more likely to be centered around an army rule or a stratagem - not just a plane OP unit. Sure there are units like castellans and shinning spears and russ commanders. Also at this point FW units have been nerfed pretty hard in the eddition. Remember malefic lords? Remember prenerf shadow specteres? Remember big bird? Fireraptors? Basically every space marine vehicle compared to their codex counterpart (this is a big deal when you consider space marines are the most popular army in the game). Plus it's really hard to put a finger on it but the most outrageous points issues are always forge world on the plus or the negative side of things.

**Crimson**

IH rules are of course much bigger problem, but I understand if some tournament doesn't feel comfortable with banning a whole chapter. So they only banned the most broken combination.

**Ice_can**

Crimson wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Ok once again FW no longer write rules for 40k that is all now done by the main studio and that has been the case for quite some time.

But this was not the case for the FW indices, which do contain most of the current FW rules, including the Leviathan.

FW writers have an unfortunate tendency to try to one up the studio rules (perhaps this is why they are no longer allowed to write stuff for 40K.) Why does FW's relic Contemptor have two more wounds and better save than the studio one? And aren't all Contemptors basically relics, why is there even relicer version? And the Leviatahan is a completely culmination of this. It is better than any studio dreads on an insane degree. better WS, BS, S, T, W and Sv than Redemptor, the largest and most powerful studio dread. And on top of that it has 4+ invulnerable save and crazy powerful guns. Yes, it costs more points, but this sort of rules just do not need to exist, it is like some sort of a Primarch of dreadnoughts. Nerf it hard and then lower the point cost somewhat.

No they actually playtested some of there rules against the Giard codex and realised what they needed to write the stats as to make the unit work the way it should.
GW rules writer's actually seemed surprised to find that people were pissed being charged extra for a BS3 weapon that only ever hit on 4's at best. The main studio simply didn't think through all the rules interactions.
They haven't done it this time either.

They handed out a 1CP strategum to make 8 wound T8 , 3+Sv model with a 6+ FNP charictor x3 and 3 T7 3+Sv 6+FNP charictors

That can hide behind -2 to hit flyers

**Xenomancers**

Sterling191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

You heard it folks, everything wrong with 40k is Forge World's fault. Nothing that didnt come from them is broken.

Wait a second.

If FW is the root cause, does that mean that the Iron Hands are fine if they dont include Forge World units?

You should really go back and read everything I have been saying...I am probably the most adamant in here about Iron Hands rules being way too good. I can surely acknowledge that the levi is also to good though.

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:

You should really go back and read everything I have been saying...I am probably the most adamant in here about Iron Hands rules being way too good. I can surely acknowledge that the levi is also to good though.

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

**Ice_can**

Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

They will likely adjusts the levi in CA to make it non viable for all non ironhands...typically this is how all GW fixes are after a unit has caused so much damage it gets gutted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

Please point out the FW stuff in eldar flyer spam lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus BA plus Castellen lists?
Please point out the FW units in Guard plus triple Knights lists?

Most of the ones that were spammed were when GW did a GW level dumb dumb move like making atema pattern hellhounds which had a 0 point weapon cost the same as a codex one because they didn't even bother to check WTAF they were doing.

Also if Leviathans are so broken why are you always complaining marines suck and couldn't win a fight with a wet paper bag, then band wagoning that they are the most broken thing in all 8 editions?

Not sure why you think some anecdotes make a point here. Everyone here has conceded GW also makes broken rules. They are just more likely to be centered around an army rule or a stratagem - not just a plane OP unit. Sure there are units like castellans and shinning spears and russ commanders. Also at this point FW units have been nerfed pretty hard in the eddition. Remember malefic lords? Remember prenerf shadow specteres? Remember big bird? Fireraptors? Basically every space marine vehicle compared to their codex counterpart (this is a big deal when you consider space marines are the most popular army in the game). Plus it's really hard to put a finger on it but the most outrageous points issues are always forge world on the plus or the negative side of things.

You said FW was in almost every broken combo they arn't in those
You must have ment marine combos, well so was Guilliman who didn't exsist when FW wrote their rules sockingly to noone with a brain anything in a reroll your rerolls bubble is broke as I dont remember people storming events with Salamander or whitescars Fireraptors.

**ccs**

blood reaper wrote:
Orodhen wrote:
I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way when GW gets to balancing the Leviathans. I run one in my Sallies with the Melta Lance and a snippy claw (which is already a sub-par way to run it). Raising the points for the base model just because of it's interactions with IH would be quite devastating.

I'm looking forward to the eventual cull where one of the few units that makes my army viable is nerfed into the ground because GW can't balance its way out of a paper bag.

?? Can GK use Leviathans?

**Ice_can**

Sterling191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

You should really go back and read everything I have been saying...I am probably the most adamant in here about Iron Hands rules being way too good. I can surely acknowledge that the levi is also to good though.

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

How can he virtue signal if he picks a side? He could be (is) wrong, got to play both sides for maximum martyrdom points.

**Xenomancers**

Ice_can wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

You should really go back and read everything I have been saying...I am probably the most adamant in here about Iron Hands rules being way too good. I can surely acknowledge that the levi is also to good though.

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

How can he virtue signal if he picks a side? He could be (is) wrong, got to play both sides for maximum martyrdom points.

LOL I love how Dakka always resorts to BS personal attacks when they start to lose arguments. You guys don't even know what you are talking about anymore. We are talking about the levi and it being the most obvious busted combo and it being perfectly fine to ban the levi as a result in the short term until IH are inevitably nerfed.

Dont forget this edition is fluid and has a history of many FW units being nerfed because they were too good in one way or another...It is disproportional. That is all anyone is saying here.

**tneva82**

Xenomancers wrote:

Not sure why you think some anecdotes make a point here. Everyone here has conceded GW also makes broken rules. They are just more likely to be centered around an army rule or a stratagem - not just a plane OP unit. Sure there are units like castellans and shinning spears and russ commanders. Also at this point FW units have been nerfed pretty hard in the eddition. Remember malefic lords? Remember prenerf shadow specteres? Remember big bird? Fireraptors? Basically every space marine vehicle compared to their codex counterpart (this is a big deal when you consider space marines are the most popular army in the game). Plus it's really hard to put a finger on it but the most outrageous points issues are always forge world on the plus or the negative side of things.

Also? GW makes the most of the broken rules. When you have some broken list dominating tournaments you can generally bet it centers around GW rules. Not FW rules.

GW is by far the worst making even remotely balanced rules.

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:
LOL I love how Dakka always resorts to BS personal attacks when they start to lose arguments. You guys don't even know what you are talking about anymore. We are talking about the levi and it being the most obvious busted combo and it being perfectly fine to ban the levi as a result in the short term until IH are inevitably nerfed.

No, we're talking about your blanket statement that Forge World is the root cause of all balance problems, while at the same time in a different threat you're arguing that the Iron Hands rules are the root cause of a specific set of balance problems, irrespective of Forge World involvement.

Either the Iron Hands rules are broken, a scenario in which Forge World plays no part, or Forge World rules are the underlying balance problem, in which case the Iron Hands are fine.

The hilarious part is that there's a middle ground where both factors can apply, but because of your own inability to not fundamentally freak out over everything you've locked yourself out of making that argument. But by all means, please continue to try to move the goal posts yet another time. It's highly entertaining.

**Crimson**

Sterling191 wrote:

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

That's utter nonsense. More than one factor can in fact contribute to the problem.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

One is a Relic and the other isn't. It's in the name. Duh.

But in the fluff all Contemptors are ancient priced relics of bygone era, so that is already reflected in the studio profile.

Also based on the fact the codex Contemptor is garbage and the Relic one is basically decent at best I don't see your point.

FW made a just better version of the codex unit for no reason. They should have just used the codex profile and added the extra weapon options. And if the Contemptor is underpowered, then that is for the studio team to fix.

They didn't make a better version, because the FW one was always around first. Instead, GW made a far worse version.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The way I see it, there's a valid argument for banning forge world from competitive play: if nobody is going to actively update the rules like ever, and standard GW rules are written without regards to their existence, then there's a lot of room for something unforseen and really broken to show up that has no chance of getting fixed because there's no review cycle for them.

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's the best solution, but I definitely see the point.

Because half of ca is fw updates?
Lmao.

They will likely adjusts the levi in CA to make it non viable for all non ironhands...typically this is how all GW fixes are after a unit has caused so much damage it gets gutted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Historically most busted units come from the codexes - wierd how all the hate is for FW.

But again any TO can decide what house rules they use - isn;t that what ITC and all the others do - create house Rules

The players have to decide if they want to go to the tournament.

Nah dude...it's a combination of stuff. FW is always in the picture with the most busted stuff.

When you consider FW units are maybe 20% of the total units in the game...and they are in almost every broken combo...it is pretty obvious that FW deserves it's reputation.

"almost every broken combo"
Yeah you have basically goldfish memory to make that statement. It's cute you think that way, though.

**Ice_can**

Crimson wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

That's utter nonsense. More than one factor can in fact contribute to the problem.

Yes an issue can be caused by more than 1 issue.
However people weren't jumping up and down about nerfing a model before IronHands supliment was dropped so the leviathan pre ironhands wasnt broken by dakkas own admission.
IronHands as a suplement breaks more than just Leviathans I know I did the maths it just has some combos that shouldn't have left the brainstorming session let alone made it past playtesting.

**ccs**

bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
It's funny that people basically lose their gak when a FW ban is suggested (triggered anyone?). I get it, you spent a lot of money on your new models and want to play them. The thing is, you can still play them anywhere else, but having a tournament just suggest no FW (therefore narrowing the number of datasheets present) is not a terrible suggestion. It's easier for a TO to referee an event if the number of datasheets are limited. The suggestion of banning new marines or sisters is very childish as these are base armies, not expansions on to existing armies. Exactly how does removing FW hurt anyone's list options?...you have a codex with a plethora of other options to choose from. If you want to expand to allow newer players to enjoy the experience of the tournament scene, maybe not exposing them to a new set of rules and overly expensive models (above and beyond GW) would also be prudent. Sure, the top tournaments may want to keep things more open and I don't think I ran into anything FW at this year's LVO.
TOs can go a step further and modify existing rules (and some do), it is absolutely their prerogative. Don't like it? Don't go. Super simple.

The problem is, I don't think just banning the Levi is going to be enough to balance the IH, but I'm willing to see a lot more games played before that conclusion is reached.

You know what else TOs should ban? Genestealer Cult and AdMech when they were first released because that's more datasheets to memorize!

Again, another dumb response. You have a great record. Those are base armies, not expansions to armies. I wouldn't also be bothered if Vigilus or PA books were banned for an event, less book keeping. have you ever TO'd a decent sized event?

So you're heads big enough to hold allthe data from the existing stuff, all the current - future FAQs/Errata/etc, presumably the various Index volumes as those are valid some places, the next xxx books GW releases throughout this edition, & whatever misc stuff you can pull in from WD (assassins)/Kill Team/that RT retinue/etc.
But add the initials FW at any point & your brain melts down??

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
It's funny that people basically lose their gak when a FW ban is suggested (triggered anyone?). I get it, you spent a lot of money on your new models and want to play them. The thing is, you can still play them anywhere else, but having a tournament just suggest no FW (therefore narrowing the number of datasheets present) is not a terrible suggestion. It's easier for a TO to referee an event if the number of datasheets are limited. The suggestion of banning new marines or sisters is very childish as these are base armies, not expansions on to existing armies. Exactly how does removing FW hurt anyone's list options?...you have a codex with a plethora of other options to choose from. If you want to expand to allow newer players to enjoy the experience of the tournament scene, maybe not exposing them to a new set of rules and overly expensive models (above and beyond GW) would also be prudent. Sure, the top tournaments may want to keep things more open and I don't think I ran into anything FW at this year's LVO.
TOs can go a step further and modify existing rules (and some do), it is absolutely their prerogative. Don't like it? Don't go. Super simple.

The problem is, I don't think just banning the Levi is going to be enough to balance the IH, but I'm willing to see a lot more games played before that conclusion is reached.

You know what else TOs should ban? Genestealer Cult and AdMech when they were first released because that's more datasheets to memorize!

Again, another dumb response. You have a great record. Those are base armies, not expansions to armies. I wouldn't also be bothered if Vigilus or PA books were banned for an event, less book keeping. have you ever TO'd a decent sized event?

What would happen if a tournament decided to ban Stratagems? They're not part of the base army, they're an appendix tacked onto the end.

People would lose their gak.
Some might even spontaneously combust out of shear rage.

**Crimson**

Ice_can wrote:

However people weren't jumping up and down about nerfing a model before IronHands supliment was dropped so the leviathan pre ironhands wasnt broken by dakkas own admission.

Leviathan has been anomalously good for the whole edition. It has often been present in compettive lists, and it is usually recommended here over the codex dreads. It's just marines as a whole were so weak that it really wasn't a problem.

IronHands as a suplement breaks more than just Leviathans I know I did the maths it just has some combos that shouldn't have left the brainstorming session let alone made it past playtesting.

Yes, this is absolutely true and it is much bigger problem than Leviathan.

**Xenomancers**

Crimson wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

That's utter nonsense. More than one factor can in fact contribute to the problem.

Nope - that's moving the goalposts apparently.

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

Thats the joke genius. Your two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Either Forge World is the factor that makes a combo broken, or Iron Hands are by definition overpowered. Both statements deny the other, yet you're advancing both simultaneously.

Pick a histrionic argument to make and stick with it please.

That's utter nonsense. More than one factor can in fact contribute to the problem.

Nope - that's moving the goalposts apparently.

Pour on that salt son.