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2019/10/03 00:14:26
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
T3 rounded out the original tale, and provided a new Judgement Day.
Salvation? Well, what actually was that film meant to be about? Kinda Future War, but entirely and stylistically different to the glimpses we got in 1-3.
It's more akin to a Knock-Off movie than an actual entry.
This is literally what I wanted for terminator 4. Desperate, worn out and basically nearly homeless looking people or a desperate human resistance that fights a hit and run battle against the machines. Seriously what I should be seeing is a human extinction level event that looks like a worse version of the homelessness problem in L.A. except with more war going on. Is that joke in poor taste? I figure I should at least draw attention to that issue through comedy.
I still think this would make a great animated series akin to 'The Animatrix' or even when they did the old Dead Space and Command and Conquer 3 animated online series way, way back. That was an art style that I actually wished stayed with us. Even something along the lines of the animated anime-eque (almost gundam art style) fan-made Star Wars youtube video would be fantastic. If you don't know what I mean it'd be something like this style. I mean even an Alien animated comic series could've been done in this art style and i'd have loved it.
Lol wow I forgot that had so much swearing.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 00:41:06
T3 is painfully tone-deaf compared to the first two. All the horror and brutality of the series is gone, replaced with third-wall gags and slapstick. The only remaining thematic constant is action, which is then ratcheted up for its own sake. "You liked when a truck chased a motorcycle? How about a hundred cars chasing a fire truck?"
In t2, even a comedy moment has horror undertones. John discovers he can order around his "very own Terminator", only to discover brutal consequences of playing with a dangerous weapon. Scenes of bonding between John and the Terminator set up one-liners for later use, but also highlight the lack of parental nurturing Sarah has provided her child, and her sadly fatalistic awareness that she has been forced to create a traumatized child soldier.
The T-800s in the first two movies are both intimidating because of their unfeeling, amoral pursuit of their mission, combined with physical indestructibility. The T1000's horror was its ability to infiltrate and utilize the forces of law and government. Arnie could barely pass for human, but no one interacting with T800s trusts them or wants to be near them. As infiltrators, they're still stuck on the fringes of society. The T1000 didn't only pass for human, it could abuse the cooperation and deference that a cop's face and uniform gave.
The T-X, by comparison, is treated to a series of "but she's just a woman" jokes, without demonstrating an ability to exploit any advantages of her appearance (beyond making her tits bigger in a nod-to-the-audience joke). Her hacking ability is straight out of dumb 90s internet paranoia flicks. Arnie is made to do a cringy parody of a Terminator, in scenes written like SNL skits.
If T3 didn't have the Terminator franchise behind it, no on would remember it. As a Terminator movie it's just a bunch of loud noises covering up a plot that's treading water. It doesn't add positively to the depth of the franchise or the meta-plot spanning multiple movies. It's unimaginative fanfiction with a bunch of skilled SFX and stunt professionals slathered on top. It's a bad movie. It's perfectly fine to enjoy bad movies, but that doesn't make them good.
2019/10/14 18:26:55
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
I mean, its the second worst Indiana Jones film, so there's not a lot great to say about it. I did enjoy watching Harrison Ford play Sean Connery though.
2019/10/15 12:29:52
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Gonna stick with my original thought that it’s just too flamebait. Much as I enjoyed it in its own way, not sure there’s that much actual hyperbole involved for those that don’t enjoy it
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
What is there to defend? I think I remember about ten minutes worth of chase scene that culminates in a library that was worth watching. Once.
Lol remember that scene where the giant ants covered and slam dunked the one dude into their giant ant hill. For some reason that part was funny to me even though it probably didn't intend that.
Really interesting that the transformer's actor fell so hard. I've seen him in only two movies since then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/17 22:26:11
It was, by all appearances, entirely an act of self sabotage. He apparently decided he wanted to be "taken seriously as an actor" which apparently required some distinctly odd ball behaviour IRL and some real left field choices at work. (Nymphomaniac anyone?)
Perhaps in time some deep personal trauma will emerge as the reason for it all, but based on currently available information, it appears that douchebags gonna douche.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
The theme of the entire series is the fluidity of the timeline. The premise for the first film is squarely on changing the timeline so as to erase the greatest threat at the most vulnerable point. Paradoxes aside, the premise also holds true with the second movie, as the entire concept was to eliminate Skynet from even happening. In the director's cut, there's a future scene where Judgement Day was averted entirely.
T3 took a piss on all of that, in some nihilistic edgelord grimdark emo cut yourself sort of tantrum. I can't look past that.
I'm also a fan of the saying "if you mix 5 gallons of ice cream with 5 gallons of gak, you get 10 gallons of gak." T3 is the epitome of this.
I enjoyed the chase down the street with the crane vehicle. It doesn't justify the films existence but that sequence was well done. Admittedly I haven't seen it in years so I could be remembering it better than it was but it really is the main thing I recall from the film, aside from the very end.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2019/10/18 08:05:08
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Azreal13 wrote: It was, by all appearances, entirely an act of self sabotage. He apparently decided he wanted to be "taken seriously as an actor" which apparently required some distinctly odd ball behaviour IRL and some real left field choices at work. (Nymphomaniac anyone?)
Perhaps in time some deep personal trauma will emerge as the reason for it all, but based on currently available information, it appears that douchebags gonna douche.
When he "wanted to be taken seriously" he tried to be political by live-streaming an anti-trump flag in a secret location. It took all of a few hours for internet trolls to figure out where it was (When the sun set, star locations, etc.). They then stole the flag. He set it up again somewhere else and it got stolen again within a couple days.
His frustration with this was hilarious on so many levels. Honestly, he'll always be a B-level Disney Channel actor to me. Trying to make him an action star was even more ill conceived than when they tried to make Genna Davis an action star in Cutthroat Island.
2019/10/18 12:22:35
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Oh haven't you heard? He's done a thing with someone who has Down's, and that's fixed him apparently. Continuing the trend of the mentally ill only existing in cinema as boogey men or as magical beings who can cure egotistical actors of their fake mental health problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/18 12:23:03
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2019/10/18 14:04:55
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Ahtman wrote: I enjoyed the chase down the street with the crane vehicle. It doesn't justify the films existence but that sequence was well done. Admittedly I haven't seen it in years so I could be remembering it better than it was but it really is the main thing I recall from the film, aside from the very end.
Arnold paid his own money to make that happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: The theme of the entire series is the fluidity of the timeline. The premise for the first film is squarely on changing the timeline so as to erase the greatest threat at the most vulnerable point. Paradoxes aside, the premise also holds true with the second movie, as the entire concept was to eliminate Skynet from even happening. In the director's cut, there's a future scene where Judgement Day was averted entirely.
See, I never got that out of the first one. The first one is about fate. Time isn't fluid in the film. Everything anyone does (man and machine alike) creates the future they're trying to change.
One of the big things I think the series seems to forget (more and more as they try to make John the villain....) is that there's no future in which humanity is doomed in the original. Skynet LOST. The humans win and in desperation, Skynet sends the Terminator back in a last ditch attempt to alter history. Doing so very literally creates the instrument of its destruction. There's no changing time in the first movie. Everything the T-800 did in the past is what the T-800 did in the past. It gives Sarah the experience to train her son to be a weapon to stop the machines and a father to bring him into existence in the first place. It's closed loop fate.
Honestly, if T2 wasn't such a good movie full stop, it would be where the series lost its way. That's the film in which changing time is something that can be accomplished and the series has been lost in paradox nonsense ever since. It's simply too fine a film to really levy this as real criticism, but it takes a VERY different approach to time travel than the first one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/18 14:17:17
2019/10/18 17:17:16
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Reese himself stated that the future wasn't set. It's not like he was striking off a checklist "Oh, tonight? We have to be at this one motel at exactly 1900 no matter what." I realize in the end it did become a self fulfilling prophecy, but if the concept of changing the past wasn't plausible, a logical machine wouldn't have used that as an option.
Just Tony wrote: Reese himself stated that the future wasn't set. It's not like he was striking off a checklist "Oh, tonight? We have to be at this one motel at exactly 1900 no matter what." I realize in the end it did become a self fulfilling prophecy, but if the concept of changing the past wasn't plausible, a logical machine wouldn't have used that as an option.
He may believe that, but there's zero evidence in the film that its true. It's not like he's a seasoned time traveler or anything. The twist of the film is that Reese is sent back by his own son. That's more than self fulfilling. That's "this couldn't have happened unless it already happened". There's no reason to assume Skynet knows for sure either. Again, the premise of the original is that Skynet is desperate and far from infallible.
2019/10/18 18:57:07
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
This might not be a self-fulfilling prophecy if you are familiar with N-jump theory of time travel. This theory is awesome as the paper I read that described it actually used the Terminator as an example.
The theory states that there was originally a 100% unaltered timeline. Sarah Conner has a child (not John, and Kyle Reese is not the father), Skynet is created, Judgment Day happens, and Sarah's child leads the Resistance.
(Imagine two points on that line. Point A is where the Terminator gets into the time machine, and point B is where he arrives in 1984. Once the Terminator is in 1984 time plays out until it reaches the future and Point A again, where that same Terminator has been manufactured and put back into the time machine with the same mission: Kill the kid of Sarah Conner.
This loop keeps playing out millions, perhaps billions or trillions, of times. Each loop getting closer and closer to making a closed loop so that everything that happened before is going to happen again.
2019/10/18 20:10:56
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Right. The loop gets locked if no information from prior loops is able to reach the actors that create the loop. With Skynet unable to know why the T-800 failed, it can't alter its actions and that specific scenario plays out every time. I still think that particular story works better when it plays to the strengths of inevitability, but T2's "no fate but what we make" message is certainly less cynical.
On a side note, speaking of loops, I rather enjoy BlazBlue's love of quantum nonsense in this regard. As a solution to the problem of fighting games having dozens of protagonists, the idea of time loops acting as something of a Schrodinger box to create infinite possibilities so that an observer can end the loop and "open" it to an improbable one is rather fun; even if figuring out what's going on is a lot of nonsense.
2019/10/19 11:01:15
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Yeah, Terminator 1 is a prime example of immutable time. The only other movie I can think of that's as good on that front is - I kid you not - Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
2019/10/19 11:48:48
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, Terminator 1 is a prime example of immutable time. The only other movie I can think of that's as good on that front is - I kid you not - Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Bill and Ted's has the greatest time travel loop scene ever that still breaks my brain, even to this day:
Bill: If only we could go back to two days ago before your dad lost his keys, and steal them.
Ted: Well, why don't we?
Bill: Cuz we don't have time, dude.
Ted: We could do it after the report.
Bill: Oh, yeah! Where should we put 'em?
Ted: How 'bout behind this sign?
Bill: OK... Whoa! It worked!
Ted: Right, so when we're done with the report, we have to remember to do this or else it won't happen... but it did happen! Wow, it *was* me who stole my dad's keys!
Dr. Who and Looper can suck it when it comes to explaining time travel as far as I'm concerned.
2019/10/21 06:40:22
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Ahtman wrote: I enjoyed the chase down the street with the crane vehicle. It doesn't justify the films existence but that sequence was well done. Admittedly I haven't seen it in years so I could be remembering it better than it was but it really is the main thing I recall from the film, aside from the very end.
You're not wrong. This was, IIRC, the same summer that the Matrix 2 came out, and it had a much-hyped highway chase scene that I remember thinking at the time kind of paled in comparison.
Terminator 3 was still pretty bad, though - and more importantly, I think it's the movie that irrevocably screwed up the plotline for literally the rest of the franchise.
edit: Come to think of it, though, I do remember leaving the theater kind of amazed that was the ending. Like man, they did it and stuck to it. And, impractical as they were, those T1s were pretty awesome.
Maybe it was better than I recollect even though again, it really did screw things up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/21 07:31:30
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2019/10/21 08:15:36
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, Terminator 1 is a prime example of immutable time. The only other movie I can think of that's as good on that front is - I kid you not - Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Spoiler:
Bill and Ted's has the greatest time travel loop scene ever that still breaks my brain, even to this day:
Bill: If only we could go back to two days ago before your dad lost his keys, and steal them.
Ted: Well, why don't we?
Bill: Cuz we don't have time, dude.
Ted: We could do it after the report.
Bill: Oh, yeah! Where should we put 'em?
Ted: How 'bout behind this sign?
Bill: OK... Whoa! It worked!
Ted: Right, so when we're done with the report, we have to remember to do this or else it won't happen... but it did happen! Wow, it *was* me who stole my dad's keys!
"Remember a trash can"
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2019/10/21 12:28:33
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Terminator: Dark Fate is basically Terminator: The Force Awakens. A satisfying, exciting reboot that's essentially the best parts of T1 & T2 in a blender.
...I struggle to invest them with much credibility. I'll hold off for opinions from people who're not from the Wrong Timeline where everyone's wrong about everything
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2019/10/21 15:57:10
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Indeedy, and unpack that comment a little more, run the comparison backwards - that dude believes TFA wasn't just praiseworthy, but "essentially the best parts" of the OT used to create a "satisfying, exciting reboot"
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2019/10/21 17:21:33
Subject: Mad Doc Defends - Terminator 3, Rise of the Machines
Ahtman wrote: I enjoyed the chase down the street with the crane vehicle. It doesn't justify the films existence but that sequence was well done. Admittedly I haven't seen it in years so I could be remembering it better than it was but it really is the main thing I recall from the film, aside from the very end.
You're not wrong. This was, IIRC, the same summer that the Matrix 2 came out, and it had a much-hyped highway chase scene that I remember thinking at the time kind of paled in comparison.
Terminator 3 was still pretty bad, though - and more importantly, I think it's the movie that irrevocably screwed up the plotline for literally the rest of the franchise.
edit: Come to think of it, though, I do remember leaving the theater kind of amazed that was the ending. Like man, they did it and stuck to it. And, impractical as they were, those T1s were pretty awesome.
Maybe it was better than I recollect even though again, it really did screw things up.
Agreed re the chase sequence - I remember a load of hype about Matrix 2 - watched both and concluded it was a much worse film that T3 which at least has an awesome ending.
The whole point of T2 was that the time line had changed - T3 does not change that but rather builds on it.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
