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Not Online!!! wrote:

And if GW incorporated the tiny number of changes ITC has? What then?

Do you realize that ITC has influenced changes on GW missions? Did you notice these?

These come off from a high horse, like "Do you have even any clue?"
Atleast imo.

As for terrain, honestly everything is better then baseline terrain rules from GW beyond blanket no terrain. So ofcourse itc terrain tweaks are superior.

because their focus is always split between narrative and competitive

And lastly there's the issue, GW doesn't need 2 pts system. GW should publish one tight ruleset. And then add in the scenarios suggesstions for Narrative and comptetive.
There is no need for GW publishing whole narrative campaigns because GW narrative ones are, let's be blunt, quite mediocre at best.

ITC has actually it's fair bit of problems with terrain, in that they use only 10% of it. Namely, only ruins.

No craters, barricades, sector mechanicus... nothing.

Now that GW has included the ITC bit about negating LoS, i would say that the GW package is superior in terms of terrain.

Note though, that if you want a NOVA like approach with symmetric terrain, you will never get it, since in GW rules you never know how you are going to deploy.

Not Online!!! wrote:

These come off from a high horse, like "Do you have even any clue?"
Atleast imo.

Ok, thank you - I will work on wording those better.

Hey don;t worry everyone GW has heard all the complaints about the first PA book and understood that real issue is.....

not enough stuff about Marines!

New book is much better - 10 whole pages devoted to new relics and strats for Marines then more all about the Black Templars - also lots of Chaos Marine stuff.

All sorted.

And then there are some of us who would happily trade the extended amount of rules in the book for their respective faction for a new / refurbished character and unit with a smaller rules update.

Emperor's Champion + Crusader Squad
Fabius or Lucius + Noise Marines
??? + Khorne Berserkers
...

Grass is always greener on the other side, huh?

a_typical_hero wrote:
And then there are some of us who would happily trade the extended amount of rules in the book for their respective faction for a new / refurbished character and unit with a smaller rules update.

Emperor's Champion + Crusader Squad
Fabius or Lucius + Noise Marines
??? + Khorne Berserkers
...

Grass is always greener on the other side, huh?

Like I said - we really needed 10 more pages for generic Marines - not like they have just had a full Codex and months of releases - oh wait.

I briefly hope this book might have been

Black templars mini-supplement
Proper rules for Legions to bring them up to Marine level

and maybe, just maybe some rules for someone other than Marines for five mins

 Mr Morden wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
And then there are some of us who would happily trade the extended amount of rules in the book for their respective faction for a new / refurbished character and unit with a smaller rules update.

Emperor's Champion + Crusader Squad
Fabius or Lucius + Noise Marines
??? + Khorne Berserkers
...

Grass is always greener on the other side, huh?

Like I said - we really needed 10 more pages for generic Marines - not like they have just had a full Codex and months of releases - oh wait.

I briefly hope this book might have been

Black templars mini-supplement
Proper rules for Legions to bring them up to Marine level

and maybe, just maybe some rules for someone other than Marines for five mins

I see why they might have done it this way, but it isn't the best way to do it given how the release schedule panned out.

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

Shut up NPC race #4!! Get back in your loser bin with all the other NPC races!! *GW employee pulls out a bat made of rolled Codex SM supplements*

 Mr Morden wrote:

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

I probably would. There's a good chance these particular items do not apply to BA as they currently have no access to litanies.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

He it couldn't even fix the traits after 3 other books and a codex rerelease, i'd rather have no warlord traits and fuctioning baseline traits then this.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

I`m not surprised, but what really put insult to injury is that the Sisters box is cheaper and have codex in it and we have to pay extra just to get the book.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

He it couldn't even fix the traits after 3 other books and a codex rerelease, i'd rather have no warlord traits and fuctioning baseline traits then this.

Characters are a big part of the game for me so I fear I'm in the opposite camp on this.

I appreciate where you're coming from though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

Shut up NPC race #4!! Get back in your loser bin with all the other NPC races!! *GW employee pulls out a bat made of rolled Codex SM supplements*

To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

The focus on Black Templars certainly feels derivative. I can't be the only one who feels like the chapter supplements were spread out way too thin over the course of months. Makes me cold to the idea of seeing more of the same.

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

This.

SM was in need of an update, totally agreed.

GW wildly overcorrected, they ignored their play testers who told them it was a wild overcorrection, and now we're expected to believe that they're going to somehow right the ship with this PA nonsense, please spare me.

Why even bother to have play testers if you intend to ignore them? I mean, we knew GW game designers were bottom of the bin, but this is just on another level of incompetent.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

Shut up NPC race #4!! Get back in your loser bin with all the other NPC races!! *GW employee pulls out a bat made of rolled Codex SM supplements*

To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

And also to be fair, GW didnt fix anything that is wrong with 8th, they just keep going with the power creep. I would have rather an overhaul of the game than all these new traits that are just more powerful. I want Marines scary on the table, i want 30 marines able to march on the field, not 300pts tanks and 100pts guns hiding behind walls that are only scary b.c they wont miss and has insane damage.

Yep.
The core is not fixed.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

Shut up NPC race #4!! Get back in your loser bin with all the other NPC races!! *GW employee pulls out a bat made of rolled Codex SM supplements*

To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

And also to be fair, GW didnt fix anything that is wrong with 8th, they just keep going with the power creep. I would have rather an overhaul of the game than all these new traits that are just more powerful. I want Marines scary on the table, i want 30 marines able to march on the field, not 300pts tanks and 100pts guns hiding behind walls that are only scary b.c they wont miss and has insane damage.

I totally agree. I am happy that an intercessor (a marine) is finally worth a dang. They didn't need to make ironhands and CF super traits to make that happen though. Just a situational bonus AP and attack was perfect for that. Power creep totally blows. If we could ever just get an edition where all the rules came out at once and were all close in power - I'd die a happy man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

This.

SM was in need of an update, totally agreed.

GW wildly overcorrected, they ignored their play testers who told them it was a wild overcorrection, and now we're expected to believe that they're going to somehow right the ship with this PA nonsense, please spare me.

Why even bother to have play testers if you intend to ignore them? I mean, we knew GW game designers were bottom of the bin, but this is just on another level of incompetent.

Given the quality of balance between codex all edition I've seriously doubted play testers existence. If play testers exists and you don't listen to their feed back they might as well not exist anyways.

Marin wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

I`m not surprised, but what really put insult to injury is that the Sisters box is cheaper and have codex in it and we have to pay extra just to get the book.

SO I think you're comparing the Sisters box to the Blood of the Phoenix Box. If so, in BotP, you get 22 infantry models and 3 vehicles including a tank, plus a campaign book. In the Sisters box, we get 24 infantry models, one vehicle (NOT a tank) and a codex. By every comparison that can possibly be made, your box should cost more. See, I could say as a Sisters player that it is unfair that at this time, we MUST buy the box in order to play, because the new dex invalidates the beta dex, and it is not sold separately yet.

You, on the other hand, can buy your dex for either of the factions; you can also buy your new rules as a separate book.

But for me, the bigger issue, and I think I said this way back on page 1 or 2, is that many of the people here, you included (if I have interpreted correctly) are comparing apples to oranges. Both the Marine Dex + Supplements AND the Sisters release are CODICES. They can be effectively compared to other CODICES for discussion purposes. Viglus, PA 1 and PA 2 are CAMPAIGN SUPPLEMENTS. They can be effectively compared for discussion purposes.

You shouldn't expect a Codex to be a Campaign Supplement. They are two different types of releases that serve two different gaming purposes, and while this might be lost on many Dakkanauts, they are also serve two types of players. If you are a competitive, tournament player, PA was not made for you. It was made for the narrative players, and generally, if you've read all 20 pages of this thread, you can see that the majority of people complaining have competitiveness at the core of their dissatisfaction (though many do have additional points of dissatisfaction); if you look at any who has said they didn't mind it (though there are fewer of us), we've talked about story hooks, or campaign tools, or customization.

I love Kill Team. But when Kill Team released the Arena set, I knew it was not the set for me, because I couldn't really care less about winning or losing; competitive, tournament style play bores me to tears, even if the rules are awesome and balanced. If there's no story achieved via linked scenarios where battle impacts the growth and composition of the army, I just don't care.

But the other thing about me is that I don't rage when GW makes products that fit your play style. I didn't whine for twenty pages that Arena was made; I don't want them to stop making products for competitive people. I just knew myself and the game well enough to know that Arena wasn't the product for me, and I chose not to buy it- doesn't mean it was a bad product either- it just didn't fit my needs. Simple. Now you can argue that you need the rules if you play the updated units; you can't complain that rules for the new units aren't in the box, because they are in the form of the Datacards. I do understand you being upset that you can't get the new units without buying the box- that's totally valid.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

If its not Marines they cant be bothered is obvious

Like they said - "everyone gets something" and this is the marine portion of that.

This is the first part of the Marine boosts - we know there is at least a Blood Angel book - wanna bet there is not a whole load of stuff for all Marines in that one as well.

Shut up NPC race #4!! Get back in your loser bin with all the other NPC races!! *GW employee pulls out a bat made of rolled Codex SM supplements*

To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

And also to be fair, GW didnt fix anything that is wrong with 8th, they just keep going with the power creep. I would have rather an overhaul of the game than all these new traits that are just more powerful. I want Marines scary on the table, i want 30 marines able to march on the field, not 300pts tanks and 100pts guns hiding behind walls that are only scary b.c they wont miss and has insane damage.

I totally agree. I am happy that an intercessor (a marine) is finally worth a dang. They didn't need to make ironhands and CF super traits to make that happen though. Just a situational bonus AP and attack was perfect for that. Power creep totally blows. If we could ever just get an edition where all the rules came out at once and were all close in power - I'd die a happy man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair - space marines have had literally the worst codex sans Greyknights for what had been nearly 2 years. So it's not as if space marine players were not due for an update - they've basically had an index book this whole edition. Is this too much? Absolutely. I have never been so uninterested in new updates coming out of GW. Like...I really don't care about these special snow flake chapters which #1 are going to have terrible internal balance and #2 should have all been released at once. It is...incredibly boring.

This.

SM was in need of an update, totally agreed.

GW wildly overcorrected, they ignored their play testers who told them it was a wild overcorrection, and now we're expected to believe that they're going to somehow right the ship with this PA nonsense, please spare me.

Why even bother to have play testers if you intend to ignore them? I mean, we knew GW game designers were bottom of the bin, but this is just on another level of incompetent.

Given the quality of balance between codex all edition I've seriously doubted play testers existence. If play testers exists and you don't listen to their feed back they might as well not exist anyways.

Even if it takes a year to come out with the rules, they could make Grand rules like they did in AoS, stop gap rules that all Imperial, All Xenos (no aeldari) ,all Aeldari Chaos could have, very basic rules. That would be a good way to play soup, if you want to play soup you have to use the Grand rules only, so no codex traits, WL traits and relics.

PenitentJake wrote:

Marin wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

I`m not surprised, but what really put insult to injury is that the Sisters box is cheaper and have codex in it and we have to pay extra just to get the book.

SO I think you're comparing the Sisters box to the Blood of the Phoenix Box. If so, in BotP, you get 22 infantry models and 3 vehicles including a tank, plus a campaign book. In the Sisters box, we get 24 infantry models, one vehicle (NOT a tank) and a codex. By every comparison that can possibly be made, your box should cost more. See, I could say as a Sisters player that it is unfair that at this time, we MUST buy the box in order to play, because the new dex invalidates the beta dex, and it is not sold separately yet.

You, on the other hand, can buy your dex for either of the factions; you can also buy your new rules as a separate book.

But for me, the bigger issue, and I think I said this way back on page 1 or 2, is that many of the people here, you included (if I have interpreted correctly) are comparing apples to oranges. Both the Marine Dex + Supplements AND the Sisters release are CODICES. They can be effectively compared to other CODICES for discussion purposes. Viglus, PA 1 and PA 2 are CAMPAIGN SUPPLEMENTS. They can be effectively compared for discussion purposes.

You shouldn't expect a Codex to be a Campaign Supplement. They are two different types of releases that serve two different gaming purposes, and while this might be lost on many Dakkanauts, they are also serve two types of players. If you are a competitive, tournament player, PA was not made for you. It was made for the narrative players, and generally, if you've read all 20 pages of this thread, you can see that the majority of people complaining have competitiveness at the core of their dissatisfaction (though many do have additional points of dissatisfaction); if you look at any who has said they didn't mind it (though there are fewer of us), we've talked about story hooks, or campaign tools, or customization.

This is farcical. Even if some aspects of comparing BotP to the Sisters box aren't one to one, you can still compare the two. And in every way, the Eldar get massively hosed. 6 kits plus rules plus dice plus battle cards... versus 8 kits, half of them crusty old units, all of them basically unviable for competitive. And make no bones about it -- whether it's a codex supplement or a codex or White Dwarf or WTF ever, it's RULES. Why does the source matter, outside of how GW packages it?? Call it what you want, it's just crappy for Eldar players. And I don't begrudge SoB players at all. But this is bullgak and if you don't want me to rage about it on the internet, send an email to GW just like I did.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Given the quality of balance between codex all edition I've seriously doubted play testers existence. If play testers exists and you don't listen to their feed back they might as well not exist anyways.

The FLG guys have been play testing for them for quite awhile. As to the quality of their feedback or GW actually listening to them, who knows, but in this case they specifically raised the red flags on this and were ignored.

FYI that "tank" Eldar got is so crap and common and old as feth people are struggling to sell it on ebay... On market NOS for less than 1/2 of the store price? Ohh yeah great deal there..

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Given the quality of balance between codex all edition I've seriously doubted play testers existence. If play testers exists and you don't listen to their feed back they might as well not exist anyways.

The FLG guys have been play testing for them for quite awhile. As to the quality of their feedback or GW actually listening to them, who knows, but in this case they specifically raised the red flags on this and were ignored.

There was a chap a while back who made a point about historical advisers in films. He spoke of one such adviser who was given a copy of the script and made many notes about historical errors and how to correct them. All were ignored. After that, his job was basically to sit around eating Mars Bars. Only once during filming was he actually asked for advice on anything (it was to do with where a column of infantry would hold a standard - he pointed out that they were currently holding a cavalry standard).

Anyway, the upshot was that he had never been hired.to give any historical advice. Rather, he had been hired so that the film could boast that it had had a historical adviser.

I suspect the same is true of GW's playtesters. They exist not to give the design team advice but so GW can truthfully claim that it has playtesters.

 vipoid wrote:
There was a chap a while back who made a point about historical advisers in films. He spoke of one such adviser who was given a copy of the script and made many notes about historical errors and how to correct them. All were ignored. After that, his job was basically to sit around eating Mars Bars. Only once during filming was he actually asked for advice on anything (it was to do with where a column of infantry would hold a standard - he pointed out that they were currently holding a cavalry standard).

Anyway, the upshot was that he had never been hired.to give any historical advice. Rather, he had been hired so that the film could boast that it had had a historical adviser.

I suspect the same is true of GW's playtesters. They exist not to give the design team advice but so GW can truthfully claim that it has playtesters.

This sounds accurate given what we know now.

This is probably going to be unpopular, but from a marines point of view (I have a whole slew of armies...Dark Angels, Eldar, Deathwatch, Harlequins, Iron Warriors, Ravenguard), I don't consider my armies as "marine" armies. I have Dark Angels, not marines, I have Deathwatch, not marines. So it's easy to understand that players are happy that their faction got a codex and new rules, with that faction being more than just "marines'.

On the flipside, I do feel the hate for the Eldar update....it was pretty lacklustre. There are some shining examples, but overall it feels more like a WD article than a campaign book.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

Look I understand the anger about pr as it is pretty weak but why be angry that the legions actually may get something?

Before pa2 my night lords had:
1 relic
1 warlord trait
1 legion specific strategem (admittedly a pretty good one)

Most legions are in the same boat. Does it really matter that we get thrown a few more crumbs in light of what's been given to the loyalists in their supplements which is what is the real problem?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

Look I understand the anger about pr as it is pretty weak but why be angry that the legions actually may get something?

Before pa2 my night lords had:
1 relic
1 warlord trait
1 legion specific strategem (admittedly a pretty good one)

Most legions are in the same boat. Does it really matter that we get thrown a few more crumbs in light of what's been given to the loyalists in their supplements which is what is the real problem?

Yea man you guys have it so hard, I mean my ‘Legion’ (Klan) of Orks has:
1 relic
1 warlord trait
1 klan specific stratagem

Not like those sneaky Eldar Craftworlds, Covens, Kabals and Cults who all got a relic, stratagem and warlord trait in PA1. Oh wait. That’s right, they didn’t. They got sweet FA aside from a build your own faction rules and exarch powers for Craftworld. Cool.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

Look I understand the anger about pr as it is pretty weak but why be angry that the legions actually may get something?

Before pa2 my night lords had:
1 relic
1 warlord trait
1 legion specific strategem (admittedly a pretty good one)

Most legions are in the same boat. Does it really matter that we get thrown a few more crumbs in light of what's been given to the loyalists in their supplements which is what is the real problem?

To be fair that's all the different craftworlds have too in terms of separate rules, it's not that legions get something, it's that the eldar got the short end of the stick.