Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.
Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Rinion wrote: Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!
Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.
Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!
Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.
With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 09:54:21
Rinion wrote: Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!
Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.
Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!
Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.
With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...
If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.
I didn't mean they'd become Legends (most FW stuff is still in production!), just that I hoped the rules would be made available online in the same way. They've already confirmed that the main 40k studio is now handling 40kFW rules; I understand that's where the Knight & Custodes updates came from earlier this year. Would be nice for everyone else to get the same treatment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 10:11:02
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
guardsmen are udnerpointed, this we know to be a fact.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
guardsmen are udnerpointed, this we know to be a fact.
And? Militia is still worse then conscripts even.
So regardless how you cut it, MIlitia is not worth 4 pts.
And the comparison torwards Guardsmen comes from the fact that Militia was Guardsmen stats with worse morale but for 1pts less allways. Infact in 7th they were even worse and only cost 3pts with upgradability to guardsmen stats for guardsmen prices.
If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.
I didn't mean they'd become Legends (most FW stuff is still in production!), just that I hoped the rules would be made available online in the same way. They've already confirmed that the main 40k studio is now handling 40kFW rules; I understand that's where the Knight & Custodes updates came from earlier this year. Would be nice for everyone else to get the same treatment.
One can dream...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 10:17:49
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
guardsmen are udnerpointed, this we know to be a fact.
And? Militia is still worse then conscripts even.
So regardless how you cut it, MIlitia is not worth 4 pts.
And the comparison torwards Guardsmen comes from the fact that Militia was Guardsmen stats with worse morale but for 1pts less allways. Infact in 7th they were even worse and only cost 3pts with upgradability to guardsmen stats for guardsmen prices.
my point is I'd rather see guard given a price bump to 5 or 6 PPM.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Seems like CA2019 is perfectly positioned to destroy the meta, if it truly was sent to the printer before the marine supplements.
Heavy nerfs to the few mono builds that can stand up to supplement nonsense, and we would be seeing a solidly 90+% marine meta.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
Issue comes from scalability. Is IG trooper 33% better than militia? Is 3pts militia really same value as other 3 pts models?
GW really, really, really should like triple cost of everything and play 6k games. Would give more room for point differences.
the_scotsman wrote: Seems like CA2019 is perfectly positioned to destroy the meta, if it truly was sent to the printer before the marine supplements.
Heavy nerfs to the few mono builds that can stand up to supplement nonsense, and we would be seeing a solidly 90+% marine meta.
on the other hand buffs applied in the right areas could help factions that are currently struggling. if, for example, chaos elite troops get 2 wounds that makes them a little better at soaking fire from AP -2 bolt rifles.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Rinion wrote: Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!
Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.
Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!
Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.
With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...
If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.
Nothing so far has indicated legends includes models with existing rules. Just the stuff that has legacy rules BUT NO MODELS ON SALE.
Last time I checked FW units are in still sale. GW knows sales would drop stone dead if they were banned from being able to play. That's why they cram everything into 40k rules even when it doesn't make sense and just breaks the system trying to cope with units that arent' suitable for the scale to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: 4pts grots wont stop grot farms, it'll mean someone will drop a smasha gun and a couple of lootas here and there.
It will make them dead. No point taking grots over boyz then. They aren't broken good anyway. As it is they are only barely tougher per points against some weapons and that's not factoring leadership but when you realize that killing 5 grots means 50-50 losing whole squad and killing 6 means 83% chance to kill all 10...They are not tough at all. They have zero offensive power. They dont' benefit from culture. IG conscripts are bad for 4 pts yet they are waaaaaaaaaay better than grots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 11:44:24
Argive wrote: Damn.. no rumours for CWE tweak? I'm still holding out hope for: Rangers being able to Infiltrate properly & Point drops to EVERYTHING apart from WS, and hiking CHE points lol.
Just a small modest wishlist….
Points changes to models across the board doesn't fix the core issue Craftworlds have with their internal balance. The codex needs a rewrite to balance things.
On the topic of Craftworlds, a lot of the index options will be going to warhammer legends which is a pretty big hit to how Eldar work competitively. Losing wargear like banshee masks, reaper launchers, warp jump generators impacts the options to just hawk wings on the Autarch.
Pretty pathetic that as time goes on GW has managed to make the game less balanced lol. I fully anticipate CA19 to kneecap the only builds still able to participate with new marines.
The perfect analogy for GW rules development truly is "The old lady who swallowed a spider"
I am OK with making errors, but this dated model of printing patches needs to die in a fire. They need to make a living document online that folks subscribe to for rules, codexes can be for background and narrative expansion with a hobby section.
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
guardsmen are udnerpointed, this we know to be a fact.
And? Militia is still worse then conscripts even. So regardless how you cut it, MIlitia is not worth 4 pts. And the comparison torwards Guardsmen comes from the fact that Militia was Guardsmen stats with worse morale but for 1pts less allways. Infact in 7th they were even worse and only cost 3pts with upgradability to guardsmen stats for guardsmen prices.
my point is I'd rather see guard given a price bump to 5 or 6 PPM.
is a guardsmen worth 6 pts? I agree with doubling the points cost for more granularity.
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
Issue comes from scalability. Is IG trooper 33% better than militia? Is 3pts militia really same value as other 3 pts models?
GW really, really, really should like triple cost of everything and play 6k games. Would give more room for point differences.
IG trooper is wsbs 4+. Militia is 5+. IG trooper has a fixed morale value Milita has d6+2 Ig has a 5+sv, Milita has a 6+ Yeah, it is about right. Of course if you take the IG guardsmen as mesaurement bar. and yes doubling or trippling would do wonders probably for the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 15:52:20
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I mean, we are talking about a rumor that has a guardsmen be equally worth a model with S2 T2 LD5 Sv- armed with a laspistol.
So militia are worse than guardsmen.
Gretchin are way, WAY worse.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
Maybee they will realise that a militia member is NOT worth 4 pts like a guardsmen, finally, after what 2 years?
And a GROT is?!
Not fieldable, the issue is not the Grot but the fact gw decided to drop guardsmen and not adequatly improving militia to a 4 pts Modell.
Which they btw never were. (4th too 7th)
The solution is simple double prices, then balance propperly.
But gw rather throw out more marines And not even fix the csm traits in what amounts to 10 books in 8th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 17:17:55
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Argive wrote: Damn.. no rumours for CWE tweak? I'm still holding out hope for: Rangers being able to Infiltrate properly & Point drops to EVERYTHING apart from WS, and hiking CHE points lol.
Just a small modest wishlist….
Points changes to models across the board doesn't fix the core issue Craftworlds have with their internal balance. The codex needs a rewrite to balance things.
On the topic of Craftworlds, a lot of the index options will be going to warhammer legends which is a pretty big hit to how Eldar work competitively. Losing wargear like banshee masks, reaper launchers, warp jump generators impacts the options to just hawk wings on the Autarch.
I think we can all agree that CWE, Daemons, Death Guard, and CSM could use fundamental codex re-designs. I don't hold out hope for CSM given that they have releases 3 update publications for them in the past 9 months, none of which fixed the fundamental problems or the shortcomings relative to SMs.
I am not sure about CWE, since they also just got a supplement that gave them some neat new options. Sort of the same boat as CSM. But CWE don't have the outdated codex design problems that CSM do.
Tyranids have a really good and interesting codex. They just can't stand up to the shooting of other armies, especially given the lack of invul saves. Really more of a problem with shooting armies being too good in 8th rather than anything else. Maybe you could fix Tyranids with points cuts.
Grey Knights I have no idea what to do. I think shock assault and bolter discipline helped a bit. They have a few pretty good units. Hard to balance them without making Imperial soup better. I think if they did a second round of cutting points on all terminator-type models (maybe 2 ppm across all codexes) it would work.
Argive wrote: Damn.. no rumours for CWE tweak? I'm still holding out hope for: Rangers being able to Infiltrate properly & Point drops to EVERYTHING apart from WS, and hiking CHE points lol.
Just a small modest wishlist….
Points changes to models across the board doesn't fix the core issue Craftworlds have with their internal balance. The codex needs a rewrite to balance things.
On the topic of Craftworlds, a lot of the index options will be going to warhammer legends which is a pretty big hit to how Eldar work competitively. Losing wargear like banshee masks, reaper launchers, warp jump generators impacts the options to just hawk wings on the Autarch.
Yeah Once legends go I don't think we will see any Autarchs on the field again lol. With 4 attacks and a crappy re-roll 1s(now mostly redundant with master crafters), he's not in a good spot..
If CHE gets an overdue hike and all the stuff that's gone up in points over the last 2 years due to ynnari fire twice stuff I think we would be in a good spot.
Yes some new warlord traits, relics, and strats are needed also but it would allow for CWE to really bring all sorts of units and nothing being particularly OP everything has its strengths and weakness as it should be. CHE is a relly hard crutch because everything else, particualry troops is stupidly overpriced. I stand by my belief a point drop to things like DA, PLs, Avatar, aspects, Wraithguard would allow for a different look. For me souping in DE or Harlies is not an answer... The airwing has been a strong part of the meta for ages, there is a reason for that and that is because it's by far the most hilariously efficient option... Make other stuff more efficient is a good start.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Red Corsair wrote: I am OK with making errors, but this dated model of printing patches needs to die in a fire. They need to make a living document online that folks subscribe to for rules, codexes can be for background and narrative expansion with a hobby section.
This. 100% this. I would really like to see one living document that just gets updates. I know there are some that dont want to go digital, but I think at this point it just makes sense to do. Maybe have a option to order a physical copy like Drive Thru RPG does for players who rather have the hard copy in hand.
Red Corsair wrote: I am OK with making errors, but this dated model of printing patches needs to die in a fire. They need to make a living document online that folks subscribe to for rules, codexes can be for background and narrative expansion with a hobby section.
This. 100% this. I would really like to see one living document that just gets updates. I know there are some that dont want to go digital, but I think at this point it just makes sense to do. Maybe have a option to order a physical copy like Drive Thru RPG does for players who rather have the hard copy in hand.
Code in the book to access the digital version or for a 3 month sub or something. Sign me up!
Not Online!!! wrote: I agree with doubling the points cost for more granularity.
No need. Just make some models only available on bundle of 2. If someone complains about not being able to take 19 conscripts instead of 20 or 18... ignore him?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Regarding grots - it seems like a bad idea, but then there is the conundrum of using survivoship bias in point changes. Either you increase grots, because you see them a lot or you drop everything else, because they don't get used enough.
Unit X hasn't been seen for a year - drop it's points. But unit X was already good - people didn't choose it, because of the perceived meta. And then they drop it again later, because we're still not seeing it, but the end result is the unit becomes so cheap that it becomes meta-defining itself and then you start another wave of issues.
Sometimes it is better to increase the cost of over-performing units than to reduce the cost of under-performers. That way you get to unveil the units hiding at the line between used and unused. This only gets more complex with things like grots, because they're serving a defined purpose that other units do not accomplish.
And the marine meta doesn't help...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 18:44:41
Last years CA was much more about cutting points, so my guess is a lot of points reductions again. Only some of the most used units will get increases. Plaguebearers make sense, as Chaos always gets its best unit nerfed in CA. SM will surely stay unchanged as DE and other late codices did last year.
I agree only nerfing the strongest units would be the easier way to balance the game, but that would also mean the worst units will stay crap tier forever. With points reductions there is atleast hope for them.
Daedalus81 wrote: Regarding grots - it seems like a bad idea, but then there is the conundrum of using survivoship bias in point changes. Either you increase grots, because you see them a lot or you drop everything else, because they don't get used enough.
Unit X hasn't been seen for a year - drop it's points. But unit X was already good - people didn't choose it, because of the perceived meta. And then they drop it again later, because we're still not seeing it, but the end result is the unit becomes so cheap that it becomes meta-defining itself and then you start another wave of issues.
Sometimes it is better to increase the cost of over-performing units than to reduce the cost of under-performers. That way you get to unveil the units hiding at the line between used and unused. This only gets more complex with things like grots, because they're serving a defined purpose that other units do not accomplish.
And the marine meta doesn't help...
And here i thought you were supposed to HELP gw sales
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Grots at the same cost of a guardsmen or termagant is hilariously bad.
Previous posts already covered it, but I echo the sentiment of just how bad the system of printed errata is. CA19 will hammer factions and units that performed well months ago and now may struggle or even be completely rolled over by the new power level of the marine books.
I wonder if they will be compelled into an emergency errata to CA19 like with the iron hands book.
Eldar- 4436 pts
