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Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?

I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that

agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.

If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?

Nothing, the levi should probably go up more for regular marines, hopefully.
The decimators and some other things could come down.
Maybee they also realize that using the drunken intern was a bad idea for R&H, DKoK and Corsairs aswell as elysians.

They never should have been the same price in the first place. Definitely not now considering doctrines. And csm won't be getting any kind of equivalent judging by the points cost on csm.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.

Four points cheaper.

Storm bolters are not free.

They said 17 after kitted out. This implies 17 with the Storm Bolter.

We’ll see. That’s more significant a decrease as 40 per squad basically pays for 2 heavy weapons and or some hammers

I hope all of the Forgeworld stuff is included (and gets adjustments as needed) in the points book.

Quasistellar wrote:
I hope all of the Forgeworld stuff is included (and gets adjustments as needed) in the points book.

They confirmed on Facebook that it'll contain the Forgeworld stuff in it. Whether they see changes, I cannot say.

Darsath wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I hope all of the Forgeworld stuff is included (and gets adjustments as needed) in the points book.

They confirmed on Facebook that it'll contain the Forgeworld stuff in it. Whether they see changes, I cannot say.

I hope so, so many cool models are unplayable because they cost more than 100pts too much

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I hope all of the Forgeworld stuff is included (and gets adjustments as needed) in the points book.

They confirmed on Facebook that it'll contain the Forgeworld stuff in it. Whether they see changes, I cannot say.

I hope so, so many cool models are unplayable because they cost more than 100pts too much

That's a fact.

But you don't have to go to fw to see that. Just ask any ork player about the stompa.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I hope all of the Forgeworld stuff is included (and gets adjustments as needed) in the points book.

They confirmed on Facebook that it'll contain the Forgeworld stuff in it. Whether they see changes, I cannot say.

I hope so, so many cool models are unplayable because they cost more than 100pts too much

That's a fact.

But you don't have to go to fw to see that. Just ask any ork player about the stompa.

Or boyz, comparatively to grotz.

Boyz do see use. Unlike stompa. Or tons of FW units.

 lonewolf81 wrote:
not a single sw info...i guess sock assault fixed everything...not... is the article saying that DA are getting rules along with point drops

nothing on orks my guess got to save something for the PA4 article!

Sounds like it, I'm hoping they address buggy prices for Orks and guys like Flash Gitz or Burna Boyz being brought down in cost.

tneva82 wrote:
Boyz do see use. Unlike stompa. Or tons of FW units.

Yeah, as a dum dum missile instead of an core unit that it supposed to be. Forgive me for beeing old fashioned.

But yeah atleast they see the table, that is true.

nice! Loving how these look!

Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?

Yeah I hated that too

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

Which way sells more models? That's the key to every decision GW makes.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?

Yeah I hated that too

I mean otoh you can literally run legion tactics now. If the legions astartes would've played HOI IV, and only ever used the Mass assault doctrine, which btw out of my personal experience actually worked decent enough casually, until new marines showed up....

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.

Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.

CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?

Yeah I hated that too

Yup. Csm are now officially "INFERIOR " marines.

Selfcontrol wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.

Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.

CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.

I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.

Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.

CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.

I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?

I know you are being ironic, but still I want to give my thoughts on Mutilators

- They are bad at killing hordes, bad at killing MEQ because of very high variance and they are bad at killing vehicules because of said variance AND their max Strength is 8 but most of the time you will be around 7.
- Getting into melee range has always been the trickiest part of a melee unit and Mutilators are incredibly bad at getting into melee range : either you have to deal with the dreadful M4 or you have to deepstrike them but unfortunately, they don't have access to icons thus they can't even get a charge reroll through Icon of Wrath.
- Even with some PA stuff (Mutilators getting a charge easily with the EC stratagem Honor the Prince), why in the name of the Warp would you want to use it on Mutilators when you take into consideration point 1 ?

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Boyz do see use. Unlike stompa. Or tons of FW units.

Yeah, as a dum dum missile instead of an core unit that it supposed to be. Forgive me for beeing old fashioned.

But yeah atleast they see the table, that is true.

Bah, typical competitive lists have 90 ork boyz which is 645-669 points depending on which close combat weapon you choose for the nobs. It's 30% or more of a 2000 points list, a very significant percentage of it. Even if you bring "just" 60 boyz that's over 20% of the list. In smaller games 2x30 or 3x30 boyz are equally common and that's over 50% of the list invested in boyz, the basic troop of the army. What are the other core units of the army, if not boyz? Everything else it's just characters, a single shooting unit, mek gunz and gretchins. These little dudes are there only for tactical reasons, and typically in smaller numbers than boyz.

Old fashioned orks didn't have more boyz unless they were specific lists about the green tide style, not the norm thankfully. Typical orks lists had 40-60 boyz, in 7th even 20ish or no boyz at all.

IMHO 90 ork boyz are a ton of them, very close to 100 which was the number of the green tide formation. I really wish I could bring less boyz and more toyz. I agree that they aren't killy though, but that's because this edition highly favors shooting over melee, pretty much everyone can screen properly and power klaws have become a joke.

Selfcontrol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Kind of depressing tbh.

They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop

What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.

Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.

CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.

I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?

I know you are being ironic, but still I want to give my thoughts on Mutilators

- They are bad at killing hordes, bad at killing MEQ because of very high variance and they are bad at killing vehicules because of said variance AND their max Strength is 8 but most of the time you will be around 7.
- Getting into melee range has always been the trickiest part of a melee unit and Mutilators are incredibly bad at getting into melee range : either you have to deal with the dreadful M4 or you have to deepstrike them but unfortunately, they don't have access to icons thus they can't even get a charge reroll through Icon of Wrath.
- Even with some PA stuff (Mutilators getting a charge easily with the EC stratagem Honor the Prince), why in the name of the Warp would you want to use it on Mutilators when you take into consideration point 1 ?

I dunno,also they are the single most fugly thing in all of chaos model wise.
Heck i prefer the cartoon possesed over them any day of the week.

Further i ain't paying 35 pts for such an unreliable pile of failcast. I can get a 5 man csm termite squad with chainaxes Instead...

None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.

Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.

CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.

 Red Corsair wrote:
None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.

Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.

CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.

Tbf, mutilators never worked especially because of bad movement.
And yes i think you have the size creep (really at this point it's an escalation) and the Point of it out.

 Red Corsair wrote:
None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.

Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.

CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.

Not sure about that, my 7th ed Dark Eldar list would have been pretty similar in terms of number of models. It's worth remembering that when the indexes came out almost everything went up in points between editions.

Then your list was probably an edge case. I had a coven army that was a corpse thief claw and grotesquerie with urien and a haemi at 1750.

That same list is currently 1340. Thats a pretty major difference, my kabal and cult themed armies had similar drops.

But you get the point, I am not gonna post every build from every faction I own as I own large collections from 8 factions.

Thats probably why I notice more then some folks, all my lists drop roughly the same with the rare exception of the odd army like my Necrons last year.

Butcher Cannons and Storm Cannons could probably go up, Leviathan wise.

Though it's not that overcosted, it's not Leviathan Dreads people are taking in the top table lists, are they?

Constantly pushing points down is shrinking the design space more and more.

A marine is 12 (with its bucket of special rules now), a Guardsman is 4 (should be 5) and everything in between has to fit in there.
There simply isn't going to be room left for nuance.

Armigers getting into the point territory of Dreadnoughts.

Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

 Red Corsair wrote:
Then your list was probably an edge case. I had a coven army that was a corpse thief claw and grotesquerie with urien and a haemi at 1750.

That same list is currently 1340. Thats a pretty major difference, my kabal and cult themed armies had similar drops.

But you get the point, I am not gonna post every build from every faction I own as I own large collections from 8 factions.

Thats probably why I notice more then some folks, all my lists drop roughly the same with the rare exception of the odd army like my Necrons last year.

I do get your point, but then I loked back through my 7th ed codexes and have realised that for the three Eldar factions and Tyranids, thats just not true. In fact, whilst Craftworlds, Drukhari and Nids come out as a bit of a wash, Harlequins are notably more expensive across the code this edition than they were last.

Also, there's no chance in hell you could have saved 400pts across just 5 Talos and Urien, thats closer to 150.