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 RiTides wrote:
Unfortunately, I just haven't been able to get hooked by KoW. I tried it, even got an army together for it, but in the end it felt like it should be played at 15mm. Not being able to reform ranks, units being blocks and not individual models... I can see why it's awesome, but it just wasn't for me.

Fair nuff, and kudos to you on giving KOW a shot. Playing KOW has opened my eyes to how many NPE and just dumb stuff is in the editions of WHFB. And while I don't think we pretended that the armies were balanced in the least (OMF 7E tho), I can't imagine going back to any of those garbage metas.

Now that my fury has subsided a bit, I mostly just want to play a bunch of KOW's new edition Go figure.

Darsath wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Did somebody say square-based RNF mini-wargaming??

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/videos/794774804299081/

I really don't like Mantic's models.
I'm sure their rule sets beat GW, but their models do nothing for me.

I have never played Kings of War, but I don't like the look of their models. Only models I have are zombies from mantic, and if you have played Vampire Counts in WHFB you'll know why.

Yeah GW Zombies, Skellys and Ghouls always looked crap to me.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
That is a very underwhelming announcement. To be honest I'm much more interested in what's coming from Hysh. I don't care if they're working on a game that takes place in the old world that's coming out in three or more years.

Unless it's a new version of Warmaster with small scale plastic armies. Probably in 12mm so people with existing Warmaster armies can't use them...

Warmaster was 12mm much to annoyance of people with existing 10mm fantasy armies

tneva82 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I wonder how blown that guy who burned his army is!

Seeing there's no hard facts supporting old armies being usable...it could be warmaster reboot to avoid 2 different same scale fb lines separate from each other for example

Definitely. I don't think they are going to spend three years making a set of rules for old Warhammer players to use with the old Warhammer models they already have.

I wonder if GW scrapping a lot of the distinct, old rank and file models (i.e., Orcs and Goblins) was making way for this kind of change.

I’m excited, pumped and overall enthralled!!

3 years is a long time to wait though....

To be honest I'd actually prefer this was relaunched at a 12-18mm scale, especially after receiving my Joan of Arc miniatures and seeing just how much detail can be achieved at that size with modern tech. I Doubt that's what the majority of the potential customer base is after though.

Can we all just appreciate that this announcement comes hot on the heels of resculpted Chaos Warriors in unrankable poses.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Did somebody say square-based RNF mini-wargaming??

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/videos/794774804299081/

I really don't like Mantic's models.
I'm sure their rule sets beat GW, but their models do nothing for me.

Luckily Mantic makes army lists for all GW WHFB factions and lets you use GW models.

wonder if GW'll try to hit em with a C&D order.

Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.

their referane to squares suggests it'll use the old minis. I can't think of a better way for GW to destroy the goodwill this announcement has generated then to change the scale

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Did somebody say square-based RNF mini-wargaming??

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/videos/794774804299081/

I really don't like Mantic's models.
I'm sure their rule sets beat GW, but their models do nothing for me.

Luckily Mantic makes army lists for all GW WHFB factions and lets you use GW models.

wonder if GW'll try to hit em with a C&D order.

If they are just putting out rules for generic things like Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs etc I don't see how they can.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.

Nothing, in-itself, no. However, since this was likened as akin to 40k's HH, it seems unlikely to involve a scale change. Not to mention, it allows some of what, likely, are perfectly serviceable old molds and the like to be reused rather than gathering dust. None of that is proof, per se, but circumstantial evidence that GW will likely stay "on scale."

No one will know, though, as a certainty, for a good bit. But I'm sure some info will come down the line next year to clarify the actual position of the product line.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there anything to indicate that this will use 28mm miniatures? A fresh start like this would be a good time to switch to a smaller scale to recreate the truly epic battles of the Old World.

It would work extremely well here, the relative size you get between a line troop and say a large dragon towering over them, creates a visual impact on the table that you just cant get at 32mm, without making the larger stuff much bigger than what is affordable and practical. Makes multiple armys affordable, easier to paint, smaller table requirements, easier to store and transport.... so many positives. I have been saying for a while the future of mass battle games are at a smaller scale, I just don't know if this is a vision GW shares.

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Did somebody say square-based RNF mini-wargaming??

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/videos/794774804299081/

I really don't like Mantic's models.
I'm sure their rule sets beat GW, but their models do nothing for me.

Luckily Mantic makes army lists for all GW WHFB factions and lets you use GW models.

wonder if GW'll try to hit em with a C&D order.

They can't, which is the main reason why AoS factions are something "new" and not stuff GW copied from somewhere else

and a reason why we won't see a 1:1 copy of old Warhammer but new stuff that is easier to protect

Games Workshop got rid of Warhammer Fantasy because it didn't have the players to support it.

This is pretty easily proven false. There were a ton of fantasy players.

There was just nothing to spend money on because GW wasn't pushing out anything for whfb beyond a few token releases now and again.

Thank you GW for bringing back the best game you ever made. My vendetta against you is done and the healing process can begin

Why would GW care about Mantic Games's KoW anyway ? As long as KoW players keep buying GW miniatures because they look better/are more enjoyable to build, they don't really have to. So Mantic Games can be all snarky as they want, it doesn't matter.

Besides, MG does indeed build worlds but they also remove units without any notice.

 kodos wrote:
They can't, which is the main reason why AoS factions are something "new" and not stuff GW copied from somewhere else

and a reason why we won't see a 1:1 copy of old Warhammer but new stuff that is easier to protect

"new" yet just as easily 3rd partied. All it accomplishes is make harder for non-gw gamer to find gw models as alternative models for other games

tneva82 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They can't, which is the main reason why AoS factions are something "new" and not stuff GW copied from somewhere else

and a reason why we won't see a 1:1 copy of old Warhammer but new stuff that is easier to protect

"new" yet just as easily 3rd partied. All it accomplishes is make harder for non-gw gamer to find gw models as alternative models for other games

this is a little bit different

GW cannot C&D a company that makes a Fantasy Version of the Holy Roman Empire fighting against Orks to help the dwarfs from the mountains (no matter if they make just rukes, models, artwork, fiction or all of that)

but they can if someone made a game with Steampunk Dwarfs driving air ships and search for mythical gold in the mist of the high mountains, fighting Orruks

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ahhhhh, GW do something people have been asking for.

Then comes the complaining.

GW does what the customers ask for the same way the monkey’s paw grants wishes. We’re all just waiting to see how our ‘wish’ will turn against us.

I've been trying not to talk too specifically about KOW in this thread, but screw it, gotta step up for bae:

 Sarouan wrote:
Why would GW care about Mantic Games's KoW anyway?

And yet why would they make an announcement about a release 2-3 years in the future right now? What other relevant event has happened in the world of RNF miniwargaming that would make GW break its extremely well-documented - and loathed by retailers - habit of not announcing things ahead of time?

As long as KoW players keep buying GW miniatures because they look better/are more enjoyable to build, they don't really have to. So Mantic Games can be all snarky as they want, it doesn't matter.

I've seen far more KOW armies built out of Mantic models than I have AOS models (I didn't say WHFB, I said AOS, the game GW still sells minis for), and the WHFB minis I see in KOW armies are pretty obviously rebased and given new life from WHFB armies the Dub didn't care to support

Besides, MG does indeed build worlds but they also remove units without any notice.

Hahahahahhahahaha your first edition change mate? And I take it you've seen the units in the upcoming Uncharted Empires book? Because I haven't.

I have not, nor will I ever, forgive GW for what they did to WHFB and the Old World to create Age of Sigmarines. As far as this announcement goes? Too late, GW. Too friggin' late. I'm not coming back to your abysmal rules writing, your ridiculously overdesigned, over the top models, and your prices. Hell, I hated 8th Ed. enough to never play it.
'Modern' GW does a lot more right than Kirby-era GW, and I don't hate them on principle, but announcing this now to try and get attention away from KoW's 3rd Ed release is as cynical a move as they come, and it won't work on me.
They burned this bridge a long time ago, it'll take a lot more than tugging on some nostalgia strings to make me care.

 kodos wrote:
but they can if someone made a game with Steampunk Dwarfs driving air ships and search for mythical gold in the mist of the high mountains, fighting Orruks

Yes. That's why the models wouldn't be marketed as "steampunk dwarfs driving airships and searching mythical gold in the mists of high mountains fighting orruks". Rather something more generic sounding like just steampunk mercenary dwarves that just happen to be similar enough to be used as the gw overlords.

I wish I could share peoples excitement. The Old World was and is far better than anything AoS brought about. However, GW's consistency in "no model, no rules", and their prices mean this is a dead product to me. I am happy for the proper WFB fans though.

 auticus wrote:

Games Workshop got rid of Warhammer Fantasy because it didn't have the players to support it.

This is pretty easily proven false. There were a ton of fantasy players.

There was just nothing to spend money on because GW wasn't pushing out anything for whfb beyond a few token releases now and again.

yeap, all they had to do was put as much effort into the game as they have with AoS this past year and most likely would have continued on great. When there were armies with books that hadn't been redone in years and models still be sold from the 80s and early 90s (and models we were still waiting on that had rules!) there is no wonder that they couldn't sell the game.

---

There is a actually a lot to unpack in this announcement (surprising as it was only a logo!). As someone that has continued to enjoy WFB & loved the first three years of AoS (this year has been ok, but I'm not impressed with many of the releases), I'm not actually as excited over the announcement as someone who loves WFB should be (Though I'm not going to shout and rant and rage on facebook either!) but it was better than I'd actually expected it be and the announcement & tease today was far better done than yesterdays.

The good-

The old world is back!

We might finally see the battle for blackfire pass get its release! (That book looked awesome before they canned it!)

[list]I'm still happily painting old world armies which now might see new models (and I have just enough to paint up at least 3 more models in this unit before the release!

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
That is a very underwhelming announcement. To be honest I'm much more interested in what's coming from Hysh. I don't care if they're working on a game that takes place in the old world that's coming out in three or more years.

Unless it's a new version of Warmaster with small scale plastic armies. Probably in 12mm so people with existing Warmaster armies can't use them...

Warmaster was 12mm much to annoyance of people with existing 10mm fantasy armies

Okay. So they'll probably go with 8mm.

 kodos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
They can't, which is the main reason why AoS factions are something "new" and not stuff GW copied from somewhere else

and a reason why we won't see a 1:1 copy of old Warhammer but new stuff that is easier to protect

"new" yet just as easily 3rd partied. All it accomplishes is make harder for non-gw gamer to find gw models as alternative models for other games

this is a little bit different

GW cannot C&D a company that makes a Fantasy Version of the Holy Roman Empire fighting against Orks to help the dwarfs from the mountains (no matter if they make just rukes, models, artwork, fiction or all of that)

but they can if someone made a game with Steampunk Dwarfs driving air ships and search for mythical gold in the mist of the high mountains, fighting Orruks

Apart from literally the word "Orruks", no they can't. And even then, only if you use the word "Orruks" in a particular way.

GW's ability to defend their IP has never really rested on the actual law, which is nowhere near as much in their favour as people assume even biased as it is towards corporations, it was based on their ability to throw their weight around. If someone wants to make steampunk dwarfs in airships they can. If they want to make superpowered armoured paladins with masks they can. If they want to make elves riding flying sea creatures they can. So long as you don't essentially duplicate the specific version of such a broad concept that GW produce, and you don't use any of their trademarks without making it clear you're only doing so to indicate compatibility/aid discovery, they don't have a leg to stand on.

The legal stuff was never what drove their success. They did well when they offered cool models to use in a reasonably fun game at the right price, and 99% of their customers either didn't know or didn't care that you could buy historicals or third party stuff for much less. If they do that again, the same will be true again, regardless of whether or not "Empire Halberdier" is a "protectable" term or aesthetic.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Did somebody say square-based RNF mini-wargaming??

https://www.facebook.com/manticgames/videos/794774804299081/

“We don’t blow up worlds. We build them.” Shots fired back! I’m going to have to duck out of this crossfire.

Are the new Mantic plastic Chaos Dwarfs our yet? If so, this could get feisty.

The logo, ”Warhammer - the old world” is an important first step.

Now Black Library can separate classic Fantasy from Sigmarine drivel, computer games can indicate the correct fantasy setting - and it even makes it possible for GW to re-/release stuff that doesnt fit into AoS such as BB - and Mordheim...