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I really rustled some jimmies, eh? You guys can keep your enlightened maturity if it means I have to like models that look like they were designed by hasbro. I'll stay an edge lord with good taste, thank you!

 Arbitrator wrote:

I think the key difference is that the human factions are generally depicted as a lot more grounded. People don't have an issue with Daemons being over the top, same with Lizardmen and even the various flavours of Elves, but the stark contrast of Empire/Bretonnia/Kislev in most peoples minds has always been much more grounded. Sure, you got stuff like the mechanical horse and the Pegasus, but those were the exception, not the norm. I think just about everybody expected some sort of bear cavalry unit, but as has been said, them to be the absolute top tier rare unit rather than the faction being the Fantasy equivalents of Space Wolves Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws riding Wolves for the Wolf Time. Instead just about every Tom, Dick and Harry who isn't a chaff pleb seems to be getting one. That the Gryphon Legion are remarkable BECAUSE they're riding common garden horses says a lot.

I agree with this 100%.

Ohman wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really confused about this new take on the Old World. Yes, still early days, no solid information yet and all that. Still...

Where is this game going to fit in the current line-up? From what is known right now I don't see how the models are going to be any different from what is being released for AOS. Square bases sure, but two fantasy model lines with very similar themes and styles? How is that going to work? Cross compatibility maybe? All the minis get rules for both AOS and TOW?

I've been under the assumption for a while now that the "Old World" is just a marketing gimmick to lure in old players (and take some of the steam away from rank&flank competitors)

All the models from the Old World will probably get rolled over into Cities of Sigmar for AoS eventually. Kislev might as well be an AoS army if they copy the video game design.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I assume it's going to work like 30k and 40k.

It seems the obvious way to do it. I wonder if they would consider making Ossiarchs, Stormcast etc playable with the Old World rules too? Basicially having one giant range of fantasy minis, all playable with both rule sets.

Original announcement was in Nov 2019 and said "this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more." So they should be about halfway done if nothing unforseen has happend. It would be really fun if they told us something about what kind of game they are planning to release and when!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goose LeChance wrote:
I've been under the assumption for a while now that the "Old World" is just a marketing gimmick to lure in old players (and take some of the steam away from rank&flank competitors)

All the models from the Old World will probably get rolled over into Cities of Sigmar for AoS eventually. Kislev might as well be an AoS army if they copy the video game design.

I HOPE it's a lot more than just a marketing ploy but they usually don't announce games three years before release and I don't know why they did it this time.

I could see there being some overlap (much like 30k/40k), but I have to assume that at some point an actual AoS "Normal" Human Army will come out and the old WFB refugee models will be retired. It might even stay as the CoS book, just with models that fit the setting better.

As for the seemingly endless high vs. low fantasy setting, are the people in the low camp only and specifically talking about the Empire? Because I remember pegasus air forces in 6th, and having 75% of your army either riding a mythical beast or just being a wizard doesn't really scream "grounded" to me. Sure, you could also run peasant blocks backed up by lances of knights of the realm, but that wasn't the only way to do it.

Heck, Kislev had a bear in their Mordheim warband and that was one of the lowest, scrabbliest, dirtiest games GW ever produced. When your whole force is half a dozen starving mercs who could only dream of one day living to see a suit of light armor in person, having ready access to trained war-bears must mean that they're relatively common.

Pegasus Knights were limited to 0-1, unless you were using a Lord on Royal Pegasus, and chances are that meant you were playing against some WAAC tournament player. They were a huge point of contention even back then.

Secondly no one has a problem with magic itself, or fantastical beasts.

I don't see much complaining about a single bear or bear cavalry unit. It's more about the excessive Godzilla bear and Santa sled, also all the ice magic/ice weapons.

Personally, I was really hoping they would take a lot more influence from 6th edition (Tolkien, Historicals), or Dark Souls for a pop culture reference, and a whole lot less World of Warcraft.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People confuse the gritty low-magic RPG with the epic extremely high magic wargame. Kislev's most elite cavalry being bear riders is extremely in line with what WHFB has been since its inception; GW even sold a bear-riding Kislev character for a time.

Giant Ice Bear breaking the setting? Tell that to the gigantic daemon literally MADE OF MAGIC that it's duelling.

I think the key difference is that the human factions are generally depicted as a lot more grounded. People don't have an issue with Daemons being over the top, same with Lizardmen and even the various flavours of Elves, but the stark contrast of Empire/Bretonnia/Kislev in most peoples minds has always been much more grounded. Sure, you got stuff like the mechanical horse and the Pegasus, but those were the exception, not the norm. I think just about everybody expected some sort of bear cavalry unit, but as has been said, them to be the absolute top tier rare unit rather than the faction being the Fantasy equivalents of Space Wolves Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws riding Wolves for the Wolf Time. Instead just about every Tom, Dick and Harry who isn't a chaff pleb seems to be getting one. That the Gryphon Legion are remarkable BECAUSE they're riding common garden horses says a lot.

See that is mischaracterizing the Kislev roster they've shown. The overwhelming majority is regular human stuff. When we narrow things down to just the rare choices and special characters things are quite different.

The Empire has a giant magical laser beam of multiple magnifying glasses and a giant rotating celestial model summing lightning storms. But then people say 8th edition doesn't count.

So we can hop over to Norsca and ride a Mumak-sized Chaos Mammoth with an immense maw at the end of its trunk. But Chaos humans don't count.

So let's go to Brettonia with its pegasai, griffins, and ascended fae humans. Or back to the Empire with its literal tanks running on steam power.

Most of the WHFB human armies were regular humans. Most of the Kislev roster is too. It is entirely, perfectly in line with the design themes WHFB has always had.

Just dunk the models in some cowpatties for the Dark Souls effect

Adding cowpatties works, but the models need to come with dismayed or anguished faces as they ponder the exigencies of their brief, disease-ridden lives.

The giant elemental bear is very in keeping with the icy wilderness coming to life to protect the people of Kislev imo

Really hope I'm wrong, but i fear more and more that the old world will end up to be vaporware or a really limited release (boardgame like).

 streetsamurai wrote:
Really hope I'm wrong, but i fear more and more that the old world will end up to be vaporware or a really limited release (boardgame like).

I'm 100% ready for the first starter set to sell out within 5 minutes and never come back.

Oh, no, the first starter isn't going to last anywhere near 5 minutes

I think they are going to have a lot of the old world kits do double duty for AoS. Just like how much of the 30k stuff has rules in 40k.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Really hope I'm wrong, but i fear more and more that the old world will end up to be vaporware or a really limited release (boardgame like).

Well, let's hope not. In the last 18 months they have given us the following:

1. Square Bases.
2. Sneak peaks of a nice map they're working on.
3. Concept art that is supposedly made for Total War III and TOW.

That is not a whole lot but GW usually never reveal new products more than a few months before release so maybe that's why we still don't know anything? I'm also a bit confused over why they would announce a new game three years before release and than tell us nothing about it for a year and a half (and maybe even longer).

Might have been a better plan to tease it like a year before release and then be able to post regular updates during that year.

Goose LeChance wrote:
I guarantee most people have never heard of whatever low fantasy RPG your'e talking about it, including me.

I'd say the majority of people who don't like the direction this is going were fans primarily during 6th edition. And yes, we all know Lizardmen and magic existed.

Demons are horrifying monsters from the warp, hardly comparable to the Santa Claus magic ice sled pulled by bears...

Kislev had a Bear God who took the form of the bear - who also represented the Land of Kislev itself which they believed would take form and defend itself - , bears were an integral part of their society, had guys riding bears, had Ice Witches, the Ice Court, an Ice Queen in an Ice Palace....but now the Ice Bear representing the Land of Kislev, a Sled covered in Ice, and bears being used as something other than mounts is going in a different direction?

Man O war back in 1993 had Dwarf submarines and Ironclads and balloons. Chaos Dwarfs had giant rocket artillery and mortars. The Empire had a ship that was a single giant floating cannon as well as a mortar version. There were Griffon and Pegasus riders. I don't really see where the supposed change between fantasy styles happened and things suddenly became less low-fantasy, The Empire had Steam Tanks for a long time too.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Kislev might as well be an AoS army if they copy the video game design.

It's been confirmed by both sides that the "video game design" of the new TWW3 armies are being based on the designs GW is doing for Old World. So it's actually that the video game is copying the miniatures designs.

Yeah, that's what's so worrying about it.

Disappointing.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Yeah, that's what's so worrying about it.

Or exciting, depending one's subjective opinion.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What they've shown so far is still Warhammer Fantasy, Kislev has always had magic and bears as a big part of their culture to a larger extent than similar things are in the Empire

This discussion keeps being dredged up, but I think some of what people are reacting to are the gulf between older warhammer and newer warhammer (I'd argue post-6th edition, culminating in 8th edition), which ultimately arrived at a world where the empire had magical lasers and robot horses. It was the kitschification of the game, because everything was special and crazy, nothing was anymore.

Kislev having bears and ice as part of their culture is one thing, but taking an Oprah level of "you get a bear, you get a bear, EVERYONE GETS A BEAR!" undermines the setting. If they had left it with bear cavalry being the ultimate expression of bear-ness, it would be special. I could even accept the elemntal ice bear as having a place. However taking a cannon on a sled, which is already a unique idea, and then having the sled pulled by bears and sliding on magic ice, is pretty much the definition of kitsch.

It's background design to sell toys to 12 year olds.

Sorry, but over the top magic and technology has always been part of Warhammer. In the Vengeance of the Lichemaster scenario for WHFB 2nd ed and WHRPG there were cyborgs and robots. One of the first WHF stories I read was about a Khorne warrior who was wielding a laser pistol. In the original Shadows Over Boffenhagen RPG, the party can screw up and cause Tzeentch to manifest in the town. The whole concept of the Skaven is of an over the top technological society from the beginning. In the game you could open demonic portals and spew armies of demons at your opponent.

To complain about the silliness and over the top nature of the this stuff is to forget that this game was created by a bunch of college kids high/drunk on multiple legal and illegal substances in the 80s.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Pegasus Knights were limited to 0-1, unless you were using a Lord on Royal Pegasus, and chances are that meant you were playing against some WAAC tournament player. They were a huge point of contention even back then.

Secondly no one has a problem with magic itself, or fantastical beasts.

I don't see much complaining about a single bear or bear cavalry unit. It's more about the excessive Godzilla bear and Santa sled, also all the ice magic/ice weapons.

Personally, I was really hoping they would take a lot more influence from 6th edition (Tolkien, Historicals), or Dark Souls for a pop culture reference, and a whole lot less World of Warcraft.

As I said, the pegasus air force was a valid army from 6th edition, the very one you say was "grounded". Yes, you had to take a lord on another pegasus to run the list, but how does adding more mythical beasts make it less of an issue? Surely a pegasus is much more high fantasy than a bear, so an army made up of 75% pegasi must be less grounded than an army with a handful of bears in it. Even if the bear cav is the equivalent of the old special (and I wouldn't be surprised to find out they're "rare", as that would give you a nice progression of cav), that means you'll cap out at the same proportion, but with normal old bears that we train today.

Again, no one's saying you can't have low magic lists or run games about rat catchers struggling to survive in the gutters. We're just pointing out that including the high fantasy stuff that's always been there isn't somehow ignoring the lore or "wrong". Mordheim and it's weird artistic direction are some of my favorite bits of the old world, but that's not the entirety of the setting. I don't personally like the ice sled (it seems like a waste of magic - unless Kislev has a lot of naturally occurring, self replenishing magical ice deposits somewhere), but that's just my opinion.

Isn't 'naturally occurring, self replenishing ice deposits' just... a lake?

Ohman wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I assume it's going to work like 30k and 40k.

It seems the obvious way to do it. I wonder if they would consider making Ossiarchs, Stormcast etc playable with the Old World rules too? Basicially having one giant range of fantasy minis, all playable with both rule sets.

Original announcement was in Nov 2019 and said "this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more." So they should be about halfway done if nothing unforseen has happend. It would be really fun if they told us something about what kind of game they are planning to release and when!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goose LeChance wrote:
I've been under the assumption for a while now that the "Old World" is just a marketing gimmick to lure in old players (and take some of the steam away from rank&flank competitors)

All the models from the Old World will probably get rolled over into Cities of Sigmar for AoS eventually. Kislev might as well be an AoS army if they copy the video game design.

I HOPE it's a lot more than just a marketing ploy but they usually don't announce games three years before release and I don't know why they did it this time.

They did it at this time solely to knock the steam out of Kings Of War releasing 3rd Edition.

We need to face facts that GW has several playable editions of this game that could be rereleased with some balance edits at the drop of a hat if they were THAT worried about keeping their Fantasy fanbase. They're going to try to make bank on a severely overpriced short sell and that's the last we'll see of it. I'm done being optimistic about this...

 Galas wrote:


Giant chaos dragons and heavy metal album-like background and knights fighting trolls was peak mature hobby time oh yeah.

Absolute! Peak of Warhammer - them Golden Century of WHFB.

Ohman wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Really hope I'm wrong, but i fear more and more that the old world will end up to be vaporware or a really limited release (boardgame like).

Well, let's hope not. In the last 18 months they have given us the following:

1. Square Bases.
2. Sneak peaks of a nice map they're working on.
3. Concept art that is supposedly made for Total War III and TOW.

That is not a whole lot but GW usually never reveal new products more than a few months before release so maybe that's why we still don't know anything? I'm also a bit confused over why they would announce a new game three years before release and than tell us nothing about it for a year and a half (and maybe even longer).

Might have been a better plan to tease it like a year before release and then be able to post regular updates during that year.

My pet theory is it was to scare off Kings of War, 9th Age, Oathmark and any other game thinking of claiming the Rank and File audience.

The only other game they've teased years in advance is a new Battlefleet Gothic (Battlefleet Heresy I think?) and that may have been a response to Drop Fleet Commander. But they never even showed art for that.

Just Tony wrote:They did it at this time solely to knock the steam out of Kings Of War releasing 3rd Edition.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:My pet theory is it was to scare off Kings of War, 9th Age, Oathmark and any other game thinking of claiming the Rank and File audience.

Certainly possible even if it is unlike GW to show such insecurity about their own brand appeal. I don't have a better explanation myself.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Isn't 'naturally occurring, self replenishing ice deposits' just... a lake?

Not in summer.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Ohman wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Really hope I'm wrong, but i fear more and more that the old world will end up to be vaporware or a really limited release (boardgame like).

Well, let's hope not. In the last 18 months they have given us the following:

1. Square Bases.
2. Sneak peaks of a nice map they're working on.
3. Concept art that is supposedly made for Total War III and TOW.

That is not a whole lot but GW usually never reveal new products more than a few months before release so maybe that's why we still don't know anything? I'm also a bit confused over why they would announce a new game three years before release and than tell us nothing about it for a year and a half (and maybe even longer).

Might have been a better plan to tease it like a year before release and then be able to post regular updates during that year.

My pet theory is it was to scare off Kings of War, 9th Age, Oathmark and any other game thinking of claiming the Rank and File audience.

The only other game they've teased years in advance is a new Battlefleet Gothic (Battlefleet Heresy I think?) and that may have been a response to Drop Fleet Commander. But they never even showed art for that.

Another thing I can think of is that GW considered the Battle Sister marketing that ended around the same time Old World was announced such a success that they wanted a follow up series. It's not a theory without flaws, but there are appreciable similarities between Sisters getting a plastic range overhaul after so long and the return of a nuked setting. As it stand now about half of the development time of Old World has been spent not telling us anything of substance about a project that we'd really like to have as much substantial information about as quickly as possible, which is a mirror of what happened to Sisters. It'll be interesting to see if the Old World articles pick up soon akin to the Battle Sister bulletin and start actually showing off models in reasonable intervals.

As for Ohman's last line, they're able to post regular updates. They just don't do it. Probably because they are afraid of posting something that later gets changed and held against them as a false promise. Based on that I agree that they should have held back until they're confident that what they have to show is set in stone. With that said, I think they still could have had an article a month showing a sketch or artwork or CAD model (or even just parts of that) of a faction they know will be in the game on release. Can't be hard to get together a dozen and a half of those things without really committing to anything.

 silent25 wrote:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What they've shown so far is still Warhammer Fantasy, Kislev has always had magic and bears as a big part of their culture to a larger extent than similar things are in the Empire

This discussion keeps being dredged up, but I think some of what people are reacting to are the gulf between older warhammer and newer warhammer (I'd argue post-6th edition, culminating in 8th edition), which ultimately arrived at a world where the empire had magical lasers and robot horses. It was the kitschification of the game, because everything was special and crazy, nothing was anymore.

Kislev having bears and ice as part of their culture is one thing, but taking an Oprah level of "you get a bear, you get a bear, EVERYONE GETS A BEAR!" undermines the setting. If they had left it with bear cavalry being the ultimate expression of bear-ness, it would be special. I could even accept the elemntal ice bear as having a place. However taking a cannon on a sled, which is already a unique idea, and then having the sled pulled by bears and sliding on magic ice, is pretty much the definition of kitsch.

It's background design to sell toys to 12 year olds.

Sorry, but over the top magic and technology has always been part of Warhammer. In the Vengeance of the Lichemaster scenario for WHFB 2nd ed and WHRPG there were cyborgs and robots. One of the first WHF stories I read was about a Khorne warrior who was wielding a laser pistol. In the original Shadows Over Boffenhagen RPG, the party can screw up and cause Tzeentch to manifest in the town. The whole concept of the Skaven is of an over the top technological society from the beginning. In the game you could open demonic portals and spew armies of demons at your opponent.

To complain about the silliness and over the top nature of the this stuff is to forget that this game was created by a bunch of college kids high/drunk on multiple legal and illegal substances in the 80s.

While I don't really agree with the complaints about them supposedly changing myselfs, I expect what some might say in response to this is specifically relating to Empire/Bretonnia/Kislev stuff - It sounds like they have the impression that those places/factions specifically were relatively low-fantasy until they suddenly changed with things like the Clockwork horse and this new Kislev ice bear, while for some strange reason the older Steam Tank, Pegasus and Griffons don't count (I guess because they were a very small part?) so was there anything else they had in the older lore that was just as non-grounded as those later additions?

I've not seen anything overly worrying with what they've shown so far. The complaints seem like somewhat missing that these sorts of things have always been there. Cathay for example was talked about back in 1992 (2nd edition) and supposedly had such things as turtle ships, eternally sharp swords, very elaborate fantasy dragon-themed armour (very much so), terracotta automatons, ogres, lightning unicorns, magical warrior monks, monkey warriors, living stone dogs used as mounts (which had miniatures even) and crow men, and had magic as a much bigger part of their culture than the Empire had. It's not like the sled and bear now mean Kislev went from hardly any ice magic and bears to suddenly bears and ice magic everywhere, or the Empire with its luminark and clockwork horse went from just a normal human civilization to suddenly having fantasy technology all over the place - Kislev always had a heavy focus on ice Magic and bears, and the Empire had it's strange fantasy contraptions before those, they were just some additions to that.

For Kislev and the Empire Magical/fantasy elements like that were always part of the setting and factions, I don't see what's meant to have changed.

Goose LeChance wrote:

I don't see much complaining about a single bear or bear cavalry unit. It's more about the excessive Godzilla bear and Santa sled, also all the ice magic/ice weapons.

Personally, I was really hoping they would take a lot more influence from 6th edition (Tolkien, Historicals), or Dark Souls for a pop culture reference, and a whole lot less World of Warcraft.

The Ice Magic and Ice weapons is from 6th edition, as it has been a part of Kislev since at least the WHFB RPG second edition, released in 2004.

Goose LeChance wrote:


Personally, I was really hoping they would take a lot more influence from 6th edition (Tolkien, Historicals), or Dark Souls for a pop culture reference, and a whole lot less World of Warcraft.

Warcraft was directly lifted from WFB! It was originally planned to be a MMORPG based in the Warhammer world,

I think it's something like the change that happened in D&D.

I always thought of the D&D worlds as the middle ages (OK the Hollywood take on them were everyone had straight teeth and bathed at least once a month whether they needed it or not) + the occasional demi human or monster outside the borders of civilization.

Now D&D worlds look like the Star Wars cantina with turtle folk and rabbit people in the inn and flying ships everywhere.

The Olde Worlde of Warhammere was even more mundane than D&D. Your typical peasant might see actual magic, one in his life and tell everyone about it forever. But now it too looks more like an anime or video game where there's magic on every street corner. And I think that's what's being lost.