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grahamdbailey wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:


Personally, I was really hoping they would take a lot more influence from 6th edition (Tolkien, Historicals), or Dark Souls for a pop culture reference, and a whole lot less World of Warcraft.


Warcraft was directly lifted from WFB! It was originally planned to be a MMORPG based in the Warhammer world,


Not quite - from what I recall Warcraft 1 was a joint project but for some reason GW decided to pull out. Blizzard had developed enough of the game by then that they didn't want to throw it away, so they changed the story, adjusted the lore and visuals and made Warcraft 1.

Since then the two firms have swapped ideas back and forth; Blizzard copied GW in doing a sci-fi version of the game; GW copied hydralisks etc.... Little things jump back and forth. Of course Bliz went on to make World of Warcraft which has had a huge effect on fantasy.


I also agree that over the last 20 years or so the fantasy scene has changed at large. It's gone from settings where magic is super rare and special (no matter if its earth shattering or just cantraps) into something that's sort of supposed to be rare, but is common enough that every adventuring party has several mages etc... Also as time has passed there's been an increase in content. DnD has far more races and characters than ever and, of course, people want to play them. So what started out as a rare species is now common enough that they can be roleplayed without every tavern they walk into suddenly going nuts because they aren't human etc....


It's been a steady change over time so you tend to notice it more when you step back and start comparing to the past.


I'd also say some of the quest and story writing has got a bit silly - in the bid to always have things be big and epic it tends to end up "Day 1 I'm a farmer" "Day 3 I just saved the kingdom" "Day 5 I just saved the entire world and all existence and god and also I got a good grade at wizarding school today!"

The constant upping of the gravity of the situation tends to end up hitting silly and losing a bit of a touch with its own setting.

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Ohman wrote:
Original announcement was in Nov 2019 and said "this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more." So they should be about halfway done if nothing unforseen has happend. It would be really fun if they told us something about what kind of game they are planning to release and when!

Good job that nothing unforeseen has happened since November 2019 then.
   
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Patriarch wrote:
Good job that nothing unforeseen has happened since November 2019 then.


Well yes, something big did happen, you are correct. I'm guessing it will have had an impact on things. I'm not sure to what degree though. The Old World appears to be in the development stage and I don't think there were any plans to start producing books, minis or anything this year. I think there is a good chance that the project is still on track, more or less.
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The Olde Worlde of Warhammere was even more mundane than D&D. Your typical peasant might see actual magic, one in his life and tell everyone about it forever. But now it too looks more like an anime or video game where there's magic on every street corner. And I think that's what's being lost.


No its just YOUR Old World was like that - but that was never the Total setting - just a element of it - once again the great thing about Warhammer was you could set it low key fighitng a few rats in a sewer or ride Dragons with High Elf lords against Daemons - or everything between.

Look at the covers of all the WFRP rulebooks from 1st ed - similar scene invcluding heroes including a fireball slinging wizard fighting monsters. Look at all the covers of all the Warhammer books from the very beginning especially Fantasy Battle and all spin off games.







This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/30 12:26:19


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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
(OK the Hollywood take on them were everyone had straight teeth and bathed at least once a month whether they needed it or not)

just that is was at least once a week and better daily

this thing about not bathing at all was much later and had to do with linen became popular, which was easier to clean so people could appear "clean" without a daily bath (and as clean cloths, as well as expensive makeup became a sign of social status etiquette and medical manuals advised people to only wash the parts of the body that were visible to the public as the appearance was more important than hygiene) and with 17th century bathing was out of fashion

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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The only other game they've teased years in advance is a new Battlefleet Gothic (Battlefleet Heresy I think?) and that may have been a response to Drop Fleet Commander. But they never even showed art for that.


Adeptus Titanicus.

Seems clear enough that the preview "rules" for the main GW studio don't apply in the same way for SG. As I know you know (but others may not), GW used to preview new army books/codexes and their associated miniatures well in advance of release.

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Thinking about it, a less cynical reason for revealing early may have been simple exuberance.

I imagine people in the studio liked the Olde Worlde even more than we did and were even more crushed to see it go. I'd further imagine they were told the word Olde Worlde would never cross their lips again.

So once the ban was lifted I imagine they were jumping to share the good news.

Thinking about it this is probably more likely than a fear of Oathmark or 9th Age.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 14:20:29


 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's something like the change that happened in D&D.

I always thought of the D&D worlds as the middle ages (OK the Hollywood take on them were everyone had straight teeth and bathed at least once a month whether they needed it or not) + the occasional demi human or monster outside the borders of civilization.

Now D&D worlds look like the Star Wars cantina with turtle folk and rabbit people in the inn and flying ships everywhere.

The Olde Worlde of Warhammere was even more mundane than D&D. Your typical peasant might see actual magic, one in his life and tell everyone about it forever. But now it too looks more like an anime or video game where there's magic on every street corner. And I think that's what's being lost.


I just point back to the Lichemaster RPG adventure. That was a low level introductory adventure for WHFRP and one of the tasks for the party was to get the robot working. The RPG was a akin to an anime series where the ordinary and mundane protagonist gets thrown into a crazy fantastical world. In the Doomstone campaign you end up on a dwarf airship. Yes you may start out as a dirty rat catcher, but full blown fantasy and technology elements are presented to players right away.
   
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Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.

 
   
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Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

I may be wrong, but that's literally the case in Star Wars, right? Luke was a farmer, and I always had the impression he had never even been to Mos Eisley, which is a wretched hive of scum and villainy... and filled with gnishgnaks, garoos, wizzlfubs, and all other sorts of strange alien beings basically down the block from him. Oh and also the starport!

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Bilbo and Frodo had seen a wizard, though, and wizards are much rarer than elves in Middle Earth, so it's kind of a matter of perspective.

I think armies are supposed to have all the big magic/fantastical stuff. The baseline mundane life is for the farmers, who don't feature much in the battle games.

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 silent25 wrote:
I just point back to the Lichemaster RPG adventure. That was a low level introductory adventure for WHFRP and one of the tasks for the party was to get the robot working.


You keep referring back to this example and it seems to form the bedrock of your argument, so I actually wasted 20 minutes of my morning looking up the exact reference in the book in question.

It does not in any way refer to the entity as a robot. In fact, it is quite explicitly referred to as a magical construct:

"This chamber is bare, save for what appears to be a statue of a man, made of solid (but rather rusty) iron and standing around seven feet tall. Characters with Magical Sense skill will feel that the thing is magical in some way, although there is no obvious means of making it do anything.

This is one of de Muscadet's magical creations."
   
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They aren't everywhere, they are a small minority of options and they are the rare ones to boot. I am surprised so many people are implying that bears are common in the new Kislev roster when that is so untrue.

To summarize, the units are:
-regular humans
-regular humans
-demiwizards with magic gear
-regular humans
-regular humans
-horse cavalry
-horse cavalry
-horse cavalry
-bear cavalry
-horse cavalry
-bear chariot (beariot)
-heavy beariot
-chaos warhounds but they are order warcats
-elemental bear
-bear artillery

On top of that regular human infantry/cavalry are repeatedly referred to as being the mainstay of Kislev forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
 silent25 wrote:
I just point back to the Lichemaster RPG adventure. That was a low level introductory adventure for WHFRP and one of the tasks for the party was to get the robot working.


You keep referring back to this example and it seems to form the bedrock of your argument, so I actually wasted 20 minutes of my morning looking up the exact reference in the book in question.

It does not in any way refer to the entity as a robot. In fact, it is quite explicitly referred to as a magical construct:

"This chamber is bare, save for what appears to be a statue of a man, made of solid (but rather rusty) iron and standing around seven feet tall. Characters with Magical Sense skill will feel that the thing is magical in some way, although there is no obvious means of making it do anything.

This is one of de Muscadet's magical creations."
It being a magical construct instead of a robot doesn't undermine his point though...?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 15:30:13


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It being a magical construct instead of a robot doesn't undermine his point though...?


I would say it does.

In a universe where magic is a thing but not very common, a golem found in the basement of a wizard is much more of a reasonable idea than human engineers who can barely work gun powder weaponry creating functional mechanical horses.

No one is saying there shouldn't be fantastical things in WFB. The argument I've been making is that the fantastical needs to be kept on rails so as to keep it fantastical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 15:35:52


 
   
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Speaking of technology, didn't the Empire only have a total of like, less than ten Steam tanks in it's entirety, and nobody could build the bloody things? I'm pretty sure Steam Tanks only became a thing humans could manufacture, like, at all, only in Age of Sigmar.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They aren't everywhere, they are a small minority of options and they are the rare ones to boot.


Your list has fifteen entries, and five of them are bears.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a lot of bears, and that's before the mounts are accounted for.
   
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 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It being a magical construct instead of a robot doesn't undermine his point though...?


I would say it does.

In a universe where magic is a thing but not very common, a golem found in the basement of a wizard is much more of a reasonable idea than human engineers who can barely work gun powder weaponry creating functional mechanical horses.

No one is saying there shouldn't be fantastical things in WFB. The argument I've been making is that the fantastical needs to be kept on rails so as to keep it fantastical.


Furthermore, if the human factions are mundane that makes the non-human factions all the more interesting. The aesthetic of daemons, forest spirits, and undead is stronger if they're facing ordinary humans (maybe with a monster) than if they're facing an army of griffons and crazy mechanical contraptions. Likewise, if the most of the army of Khemri, for example, is skeletons with different mounts and weapons it makes the mummies and animated statues stand out more.

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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thinking about it, a less cynical reason for revealing early may have been simple exuberance.

I imagine people in the studio liked the Olde Worlde even more than we did and were even more crushed to see it go. I'd further imagine they were told the word Olde Worlde would never cross their lips again.

So once the ban was lifted I imagine they were jumping to share the good news.


I've seen that happen. Jervis did a seminar in the evening between two days of GT in Maryland in the long, long ago. He was supposed to just talk about the new HE army book at the time, but slipped on something about Gorkamorka. He said something like 'I'm really not supposed to talk about this,' but people pressed him, and he just shrugged and started gushing. It was kind of hilarious and charming, because his enthusiasm for the project just spilled over.

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Ohman wrote:
Patriarch wrote:
Good job that nothing unforeseen has happened since November 2019 then.


Well yes, something big did happen, you are correct. I'm guessing it will have had an impact on things. I'm not sure to what degree though. The Old World appears to be in the development stage and I don't think there were any plans to start producing books, minis or anything this year. I think there is a good chance that the project is still on track, more or less.


If COVID affected GW anything like it did Kickstarter than they'll soon be telling us they're actually further away from finishing the game than when they started.

As to the "magical" nature of Warhammer, the whole discussion reminds me of why good authors can make millions of dollars... it's obvious understanding the fine nuance of these things and being able to ride that line is something most people simply cannot do. It takes some real talent. Warhammer's level of fantasy, verisimilitude, grittiness and so on is just as it is, and at its best achieved an ambrosiac mixture for the imagination. You can't describe it by saying it was "High Fantasy" or "Low Fantasy" or citing a single instance from some book's cover art, or the events in a WFRP scenario (not the least of which because those events invariably were for all intents and purposes meant to be wild, one-in-a-million stories) and do anything close to an adequate job summing it up, or really even roughly describing it. It was a complex alchemy and longtime fans know it when they see it, and know when it's off the rails too. With some allowance for differing tastes.
   
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Voss wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thinking about it, a less cynical reason for revealing early may have been simple exuberance.

I imagine people in the studio liked the Olde Worlde even more than we did and were even more crushed to see it go. I'd further imagine they were told the word Olde Worlde would never cross their lips again.

So once the ban was lifted I imagine they were jumping to share the good news.


I've seen that happen. Jervis did a seminar in the evening between two days of GT in Maryland in the long, long ago. He was supposed to just talk about the new HE army book at the time, but slipped on something about Gorkamorka. He said something like 'I'm really not supposed to talk about this,' but people pressed him, and he just shrugged and started gushing. It was kind of hilarious and charming, because his enthusiasm for the project just spilled over.


Yeah, I remember chit-chatting with him about Cathay. He told me (in a somewhat conspiratorial manner) that the current idea at the studio was that it wouldn't be another human army. Whether that eventually morphed into Ogre Kingdoms or was a different idea that never materialized, I have no idea. Even if the Old World still existed, there'd probably be a lot of sensitivities around Cathay. But yeah, the designers are human beings and get excited about things they're working on.

 frankelee wrote:
As to the "magical" nature of Warhammer, the whole discussion reminds me of why good authors can make millions of dollars... it's obvious understanding the fine nuance of these things and being able to ride that line is something most people simply cannot do. It takes some real talent. Warhammer's level of fantasy, verisimilitude, grittiness and so on is just as it is, and at its best achieved an ambrosiac mixture for the imagination. You can't describe it by saying it was "High Fantasy" or "Low Fantasy" or citing a single instance from some book's cover art, or the events in a WFRP scenario (not the least of which because those events invariably were for all intents and purposes meant to be wild, one-in-a-million stories) and do anything close to an adequate job summing it up, or really even roughly describing it. It was a complex alchemy and longtime fans know it when they see it, and know when it's off the rails too. With some allowance for differing tastes.


I think part of the reason Kislev doesn't 'feel right' to some folks is that they're seeing individual concept sketches and not armies on the tabletop. Not ranks of Kossars flanked by Winged Lancers and Gryphon Legion alongside a bear sled and a unit of ice archers. If one cherry-picked the most fantastic Empire elements absent ranks of halberdiers, etc. then Empire would look pretty crazy also.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:35:39


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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world..


Because they live in a backwater /hicksville not a great city

So sure Farmer Heinz may not have seen a Elf, a Dragon or a Elemental Bear in the village of Knowherestadt of the Empire but good chance have seen Beastmen and Goblins and if he travelled to Nuln, Altdorf or Middenheim he will have seen much more - indeed from the very start of Warhammer, Middenheim has had a major magical festival with a flying wizard display team etc etc.

Anyone who actually knows the lore for Kislev will recognise that the Elemental Bear is very much in keeping.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:03:06


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And honestly, the wargame was always much more "fantastical" than the RPG (which isn't surprising, modern day walmart greeter will also likely never get within 10ft of an F-35, and yet they exist and if you're a fighter pilot, you're likely to see them all the time), and we, the players, tend to have our games be those once-in-a-lifetime scenarios instead of 50 Empire swordsmen clashing with 30 zombies somewhere near Sylvania.
As a general rule, with some exceptions, wargamers want to see Tigers and Panthers going against the IS2s and KV2s on the table, not the half-frozen Heer soldiers with horse-drawn artillery being turned to paste by a swarm of identical T-34s. Or to put it Old World terms, Reiksguard Greatswords and Helblasters, the high-tech, cutting-edge wonders of Nuln going against demons and elves riding giant raptors, even if 99% of Imperial military would never fight with anything more advanced than a crossbow (handguns were being adopted by the Empire as regular weapon at the time of Karl Franz, with Nuln being renown for fielding larger numbers of them vs other provinces after all)

To put it simply- in the Warhammer world, there were more wizards than engineers. the Empire wasn't the norm, it was the outlier in how low-magic it was. Flying was more common than having powered land vehicle.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:19:37


 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.


Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf because Hobbits purposefully kept out of the dealings of the rest of the world and preferred to stay in the Shire. Luke had never been off world because he was a relatively poor moisture farmer and had reason to leave nor anywhere to go - he had to stay to help Owen and Beru. They were both backwater places with characters who didn't venture anywhere, the experience of WHFB peasant is still going to be that sort of low-level fantasy where it's mundane most of the time - things like the clockwork horse, Kislev Ice Bear etc are not going to be common things that no one is bothered about having seen.

The old lore still had these sorts of things. There's been Griffon and pegasus riders alongside giant oversized nonsensical canons the size of a ship since Man O War, Steam tanks have been part of the Empire for a long, long time as well as various other Imperial Engineer school creations. Dwarfs had all their various contraptions. Cathay had terracotta automatons, stone dog mounts, crow men, lightning unicorns and monkey men. Kislev had the Ice Magic weapons, Ice Palace, Ice Witches everywhere, a bear god who took the form of a bear with the land of Kislev being a bear and them making uses of Bears as mounts and such. I really don't get how things are meant to be different now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:23:17


 
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.


Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf because Hobbits purposefully kept out of the dealings of the rest of the world and preferred to stay in the Shire. Luke had never been off world because he was a relatively poor moisture farmer and had reason to leave nor anywhere to go - he had to stay to help Owen and Beru. They were both backwater places with characters who didn't venture anywhere, the experience of WHFB peasant is still going to be that sort of low-level fantasy where it's mundane most of the time - things like the clockwork horse, Kislev Ice Bear etc are not going to be common things that no one is bothered about having seen.

The old lore still had these sorts of things. There's been Griffon and pegasus riders alongside giant oversized nonsensical canons the size of a ship since Man O War, Steam tanks have been part of the Empire for a long, long time as well as various other Imperial Engineer school creations. Dwarfs had all their various contraptions. Cathay had terracotta automatons, stone dog mounts, crow men, lightning unicorns and monkey men. Kislev had the Ice Magic weapons, Ice Palace, Ice Witches everywhere, a bear god who took the form of a bear with the land of Kislev being a bear and them making uses of Bears as mounts and such. I really don't get how things are meant to be different now.


I mean, the Empire had like 8 Steam tanks in total, and the technology to make them was long forgotten, so they could never make more...

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 silent25 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's something like the change that happened in D&D.

I always thought of the D&D worlds as the middle ages (OK the Hollywood take on them were everyone had straight teeth and bathed at least once a month whether they needed it or not) + the occasional demi human or monster outside the borders of civilization.

Now D&D worlds look like the Star Wars cantina with turtle folk and rabbit people in the inn and flying ships everywhere.

The Olde Worlde of Warhammere was even more mundane than D&D. Your typical peasant might see actual magic, one in his life and tell everyone about it forever. But now it too looks more like an anime or video game where there's magic on every street corner. And I think that's what's being lost.


I just point back to the Lichemaster RPG adventure. That was a low level introductory adventure for WHFRP and one of the tasks for the party was to get the robot working. The RPG was a akin to an anime series where the ordinary and mundane protagonist gets thrown into a crazy fantastical world. In the Doomstone campaign you end up on a dwarf airship. Yes you may start out as a dirty rat catcher, but full blown fantasy and technology elements are presented to players right away.

The Lichemaster is a bit different, but the case of the Doomstones campaign is interesting on account of it being written as a regular D&D campaign that was later on slightly reworked to kinda sorta fit into WFRP. It is also more or less univerlassy bashed as being not very good nor very Warhammer-y.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:37:44


 
   
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There's a few issues with the whole fantastic ideas and increased 'unique' playable species.

1. How often they turn up is on the Story teller of a given world, and running into a few bunny girl fighters in an adventurer tavern doesn't make them common.

2. Even if said BGFs are common, it just means they aren't the fantastic part of the fantastic journey.

A real world look at these though. By the late 1880/90s most large American cities had a Chinatown neighborhood. Chinese Americans were part of the American culture by that point.

How many people, those in those cities, were likely to actually encounter one of these people? For a good long part of US history, communities, even inside a larger urban area could be very insular. You *might* see a Chinese American walking down the street every now and then, but the odds are you wouldn't stop to talk to them.

Then remember, until the mid 1930's, most of the US population was rural. With most Chinese Americans living in cities, how many farmboys would ever actually meet one?

This now brings up fiction. We know Chinese Americans were part of society. But they were still mysterious to most Americans that entire subsections of fiction were about the goings on of their lives and neighborhoods. Places of mystery (even as the real life was just mundane with accents), where all types of adventure lurked, and mystical and magical things abounded.

   
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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.


Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf because Hobbits purposefully kept out of the dealings of the rest of the world and preferred to stay in the Shire. Luke had never been off world because he was a relatively poor moisture farmer and had reason to leave nor anywhere to go - he had to stay to help Owen and Beru. They were both backwater places with characters who didn't venture anywhere, the experience of WHFB peasant is still going to be that sort of low-level fantasy where it's mundane most of the time - things like the clockwork horse, Kislev Ice Bear etc are not going to be common things that no one is bothered about having seen.

The old lore still had these sorts of things. There's been Griffon and pegasus riders alongside giant oversized nonsensical canons the size of a ship since Man O War, Steam tanks have been part of the Empire for a long, long time as well as various other Imperial Engineer school creations. Dwarfs had all their various contraptions. Cathay had terracotta automatons, stone dog mounts, crow men, lightning unicorns and monkey men. Kislev had the Ice Magic weapons, Ice Palace, Ice Witches everywhere, a bear god who took the form of a bear with the land of Kislev being a bear and them making uses of Bears as mounts and such. I really don't get how things are meant to be different now.


I mean, the Empire had like 8 Steam tanks in total, and the technology to make them was long forgotten, so they could never make more...


Not quite... there were 12 originally created, 8 still remain 500 years later - its unclear why there are no more built given that more advanced tech (mechanical animals) has been created since by the Humand and Dwarf engineers of the Empire, Marienburg also commissioned some slightly odd versions from Nuln.

Dwarfs had plenty of tech including Airships, Flamethrower cannons, A steam powered sentry gun

And then there is the Skaven with warp powered trains, ships....

Elves ride Dragons - you can even hire one as a mercenary.....

Chaos can even be given tech as reward for service.

Now again would Farmer Heinz have seen any of these - probably not but he also might have depending on where he lives in the Empire - also remember that an entire Province is ruled by the Undead.

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 Mmmpi wrote:
There's a few issues with the whole fantastic ideas and increased 'unique' playable species.

1. How often they turn up is on the Story teller of a given world, and running into a few bunny girl fighters in an adventurer tavern doesn't make them common.

2. Even if said BGFs are common, it just means they aren't the fantastic part of the fantastic journey.

A real world look at these though. By the late 1880/90s most large American cities had a Chinatown neighborhood. Chinese Americans were part of the American culture by that point.

How many people, those in those cities, were likely to actually encounter one of these people? For a good long part of US history, communities, even inside a larger urban area could be very insular. You *might* see a Chinese American walking down the street every now and then, but the odds are you wouldn't stop to talk to them.

Then remember, until the mid 1930's, most of the US population was rural. With most Chinese Americans living in cities, how many farmboys would ever actually meet one?

This now brings up fiction. We know Chinese Americans were part of society. But they were still mysterious to most Americans that entire subsections of fiction were about the goings on of their lives and neighborhoods. Places of mystery (even as the real life was just mundane with accents), where all types of adventure lurked, and mystical and magical things abounded.


The problem is you assume that the Empire/America in this example is the norm. It's very much the exception to a globe full of wizards, lizards, dinosaurs, demons and tiger-people. Franz the kraut-herder is the exotic non-magical creature of fables, not the elven wizard riding a dragon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 17:56:43


 
   
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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.


Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf because Hobbits purposefully kept out of the dealings of the rest of the world and preferred to stay in the Shire. Luke had never been off world because he was a relatively poor moisture farmer and had reason to leave nor anywhere to go - he had to stay to help Owen and Beru. They were both backwater places with characters who didn't venture anywhere, the experience of WHFB peasant is still going to be that sort of low-level fantasy where it's mundane most of the time - things like the clockwork horse, Kislev Ice Bear etc are not going to be common things that no one is bothered about having seen.

The old lore still had these sorts of things. There's been Griffon and pegasus riders alongside giant oversized nonsensical canons the size of a ship since Man O War, Steam tanks have been part of the Empire for a long, long time as well as various other Imperial Engineer school creations. Dwarfs had all their various contraptions. Cathay had terracotta automatons, stone dog mounts, crow men, lightning unicorns and monkey men. Kislev had the Ice Magic weapons, Ice Palace, Ice Witches everywhere, a bear god who took the form of a bear with the land of Kislev being a bear and them making uses of Bears as mounts and such. I really don't get how things are meant to be different now.


I mean, the Empire had like 8 Steam tanks in total, and the technology to make them was long forgotten, so they could never make more...
And the bear artillery reads the same way, but again people are applying a double standard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/30 18:16:08


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 Mr Morden wrote:
Not quite... there were 12 originally created, 8 still remain 500 years later - its unclear why there are no more built given that more advanced tech (mechanical animals) has been created since by the Humand and Dwarf engineers of the Empire, Marienburg also commissioned some slightly odd versions from Nuln.

Dwarfs had plenty of tech including Airships, Flamethrower cannons, A steam powered sentry gun

And then there is the Skaven with warp powered trains, ships....

Elves ride Dragons - you can even hire one as a mercenary.....

Chaos can even be given tech as reward for service.

Now again would Farmer Heinz have seen any of these - probably not but he also might have depending on where he lives in the Empire - also remember that an entire Province is ruled by the Undead.


Technology and magical creatures...feh. I want to hear more about Farmer Heinz's abscess and head lice.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes but that's because it's a story and supposed to have cool things happen. The heroes journey and all that.

Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf before they started their journey.

Luke was on a farm hanging out with his buddies on the weekend and never been off world.

But if there's elves and dwarves and dragonkin and catfolk all drinking at the inn and the airship station is down the block then there's no hero's journey, you're already in a world of wonder.

If an WHFB army has A pegasus and A wizard that's one thing. When there's steam tanks and griffon knights and ice bears everywhere there's no baseline mundane life to move on from.


Bilbo and Frodo had never seen an elf because Hobbits purposefully kept out of the dealings of the rest of the world and preferred to stay in the Shire. Luke had never been off world because he was a relatively poor moisture farmer and had reason to leave nor anywhere to go - he had to stay to help Owen and Beru. They were both backwater places with characters who didn't venture anywhere, the experience of WHFB peasant is still going to be that sort of low-level fantasy where it's mundane most of the time - things like the clockwork horse, Kislev Ice Bear etc are not going to be common things that no one is bothered about having seen.

The old lore still had these sorts of things. There's been Griffon and pegasus riders alongside giant oversized nonsensical canons the size of a ship since Man O War, Steam tanks have been part of the Empire for a long, long time as well as various other Imperial Engineer school creations. Dwarfs had all their various contraptions. Cathay had terracotta automatons, stone dog mounts, crow men, lightning unicorns and monkey men. Kislev had the Ice Magic weapons, Ice Palace, Ice Witches everywhere, a bear god who took the form of a bear with the land of Kislev being a bear and them making uses of Bears as mounts and such. I really don't get how things are meant to be different now.


I mean, the Empire had like 8 Steam tanks in total, and the technology to make them was long forgotten, so they could never make more...
And the bear artillery reads the same way, but again people are applying a double standard.


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