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Tomb Kings aren't like Tomb Kings in space. They've been continuously active throughout the millennia, fending off treasure hunters, retrieving lost artifacts, haunting the ocean they claimed as their territory and going on slave raids. There is no point in the Imperial timeline where you would struggle to insert Tomb Kings,

 Geifer wrote:
There is no point in the Imperial timeline where you would struggle to insert Tomb Kings,

No, just the problem of justifying why a band of Wood Elves have ventured into Khemri. Or how a group of Tomb Kings have profaned a sacred elven woodland. As with Lizardmen, it's not their lack of existence that requires a bit of a thinking to justify, but their geographical isolation.

well, those are all over the World, Wood Elves are not just in 1 forest but in many, Lizardmen have cities in the south of Khemri as well as there is Chaos Waste in the southern lands too

Laurelorn Forest has had a powerful influence on the Empire through its history and as the Enoir (the Wood Elves that dwell there) are different to those of Athel Loren - there is the opportunity for new models etc

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Laurelorn_Forest

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
There is no point in the Imperial timeline where you would struggle to insert Tomb Kings,

No, just the problem of justifying why a band of Wood Elves have ventured into Khemri. Or how a group of Tomb Kings have profaned a sacred elven woodland. As with Lizardmen, it's not their lack of existence that requires a bit of a thinking to justify, but their geographical isolation.

That's a problem with Wood Elves, not Tomb Kings. You'll struggle to find reasons for a lot of factions to fight isolationist hippies, including the Empire.

The Badlands, Border Princes and part of the southern Empire are the rightful territory of one or another Nehekharan monarch. Bashing in some barbarian heads to restore order and Nehekharan rule is all the justification you need without going into more specific scenarios.

Similarly, the ocean south of the Border Princes and Tilea see fleets out of Zandri because the city claims those waves for itself.

Tomb Kings never suffered the supposed isolation they're frequently accused of. They're next door neighbors with the Old World and have strategic interests* in the southern parts of it.



*both literally and alternatively read as a euphemism for royal ego.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
There is no point in the Imperial timeline where you would struggle to insert Tomb Kings,

No, just the problem of justifying why a band of Wood Elves have ventured into Khemri. Or how a group of Tomb Kings have profaned a sacred elven woodland. As with Lizardmen, it's not their lack of existence that requires a bit of a thinking to justify, but their geographical isolation.

Quests, summoning magic gone wrong, revenge, chaos did it...

Yeah it's weird, but in a world of magic and ancient civilizations it's more rational than say, Samurai at the pyramids of Giza.



Oh wait.

Eumerin wrote:


Unfortunately, I suspect that Tomb Kings is the group most likely to get dropped from the Old World release (and I say this as someone who played them). There seemed to be little interest in them amongst the GW staff back in the day. And many elements of their army came across as "similar to Vampire Counts, but weaker and more complicated", which suggests a lack of interest by GW in writing their army books (even 8th edition).

There was at least enough interest to get them both a book and multiple new units in 8th, which is infinitely more interest from the studio than Bretonnians which got their 6th ed releases then literally nothing but an 8th ed FAQ.

I remember Tomb Kings being very popular locally until their 8th Army Book completely killed their power level.

It didn't help that Vampires also had skeletons and got a massive update with ghosts as well alongside and also a more powerful battletome.

Again whilst power isn't everything; if your army dies in most encounters and is tough to use purely because its got bad or out of date stats then interest wanes. People move onto working on another army etc...


Kirby era GW I think didn't understand this well at the top end of the firm. All they understood was quality sculpting, boutique sales and sales figures. If they invested lots into making TK look cool and they didn't sell then that was the only issue, they either didn't look cool enough or they were wrong from the outset and would never sell.

Again it was policy born of a management team too isolated from their actual customers and viewpoints to really understand the whole of the sales data. At least that's my impression of those times.

Yea it seemed Kirby thought he was selling display case figurines and the rulebook side of the business was a weird hobby that Priestly and his gang had that was just a dumb drain on resources.

Tomb Kings always had a very cool look (though it got a bit silly with the skull sphinxes and such) but were very limited.

It would be like splitting Necrons into 2 armies, one that gets almost everything, the other which only gets warriors and a few other units.

Not sure what the fix would be but GW never found it either.

That would certainly explain the 1st edition AoS “rules”, such as they were.
Not even considering the wacky cluck like a chicken junk; the idea that 20 wounds worth of goblins was an even match against 20 wounds of Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead, somehow… or that if you had more than those 20 gobbos there was a decent chance Nagash could win by only killing a quarter of them, because he was so badly outnumbered.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Tomb Kings always had a very cool look (though it got a bit silly with the skull sphinxes and such) but were very limited.

It would be like splitting Necrons into 2 armies, one that gets almost everything, the other which only gets warriors and a few other units.

Not sure what the fix would be but GW never found it either.

The Tomb Kings were supposed to have loads of construct-warriors. Like the Ushabti and Bone Giants but moreso. If they’d leaned into that then I’m sure more units could have been added. Similarly their elite tomb guards were supposed to have been dedicated to their gods and got specific bonuses in life; that could have been a thing for their raised remains too.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
the idea that 20 wounds worth of goblins was an even match against 20 wounds of Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead, somehow…

The Wounds as points thing was a fan add, not an actual part of the rules.

Oh yes because the base version was even worse. As in model count only. So Nagash was so horribly outnumbered by a minimum sized unit of goblins he could declare a sudden death condition and win by killing five of them. Or something.

There wasn't even that. The game launched with the idea that you just put down what you wanted and played.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
That would certainly explain the 1st edition AoS “rules”, such as they were.
Not even considering the wacky cluck like a chicken junk; the idea that 20 wounds worth of goblins was an even match against 20 wounds of Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead, somehow… or that if you had more than those 20 gobbos there was a decent chance Nagash could win by only killing a quarter of them, because he was so badly outnumbered.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Tomb Kings always had a very cool look (though it got a bit silly with the skull sphinxes and such) but were very limited.

It would be like splitting Necrons into 2 armies, one that gets almost everything, the other which only gets warriors and a few other units.

Not sure what the fix would be but GW never found it either.

The Tomb Kings were supposed to have loads of construct-warriors. Like the Ushabti and Bone Giants but moreso. If they’d leaned into that then I’m sure more units could have been added. Similarly their elite tomb guards were supposed to have been dedicated to their gods and got specific bonuses in life; that could have been a thing for their raised remains too.

There's an interview that surfaced somewhere and basically AoS did have sensible rules in development for launch. However one of the managers over the rules team "liked silly rules" and the rules team worked to appease their manager which resulted in the formal rules going out the window and joke rules being the only thing that came along. The total mess of messing up the armies and such I think was purely a marketing move.

My impression is the AoS product was going to be joke/casual rules with only 4 "Grand Alliance Armies" with no worries about balance. GW would then release "mini" armies which would be one or two release waves and that would be it. They could then retire and release armies all over the place because of how the lore works with AoS. Utterly no limits.

With only 4 GA armies to worry about they could "retire" armies and you'd still have valid forces etc..


Basically a purely shelf filling model line with some rules on the side with only support for some core factions that sell really well or which get marketed like crazy - ergo Stormcast (the new Marines who I suspect they also wanted to come in multiple chapters like Marines).


AoS is a product and marketing choice born of a management team totally isoalted from the actual customers; purely looking at the numbers and neurotic about leaks (which is an irony because GW at that time leaked like crazy). It was also made without the marketing team actually being involved - hence the massive marketing push for Old World prior to its removal from sale (without warning) and the surprise release of a totally "new game" with zero pre-release marketing.


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 Platuan4th wrote:
There wasn't even that. The game launched with the idea that you just put down what you wanted and played.

Yep, no points, no structure, no army limits. The only people that really liked it at that time were those doing home-brew rules because after years of being ignored they suddenly ruled their local clubs because the core AoS structure was beyond daft. That and most people used 8th ed points for armies that had them.

The Tomb Kings were created in a ritual that ended abruptly (and unexpectedly) with Nagash's death. When Nagash was recreated for the first time following his death, he had his fatal run-in with Sigmar not long afterwards. The Tomb Kings have been around for a *long* time, and pre-date the Empire.

As for why the Tomb Kings would send an army somewhere? Well, the Tomb King leading the army found out that a gold necklace from his Treasury had turned up in the region, and...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Old World is not getting cancelled. There's no way current GW would pass up on the biggest nostalgia trip to the bank possible, when even brave new AoS is dredging ideas from WFB's past.

I agree but I think we all have to brace for disappointment.

My guess:
Launch box with 2 factions.
3-5 insanely priced army books for the old factions
Made to order?
Death

The disappointment is going to be that everyone jumping the gun and building armies for the game before we even know much about it won't be able to use half the stuff that they thought they could, and then within a year all the legacy stuff will be sidelined into a "legends" type format where they won't get balance updates and will be considered unusable by the community at large. Even though its predictable, folks will still whinge that they spent thousands of dollars buying and countless hours assembling and painting obsolete model kits and that they are getting screwed by GW.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The disappointment is going to be that everyone jumping the gun and building armies for the game before we even know much about it won't be able to use half the stuff that they thought they could, and then within a year all the legacy stuff will be sidelined into a "legends" type format where they won't get balance updates and will be considered unusable by the community at large. Even though its predictable, folks will still whinge that they spent thousands of dollars buying and countless hours assembling and painting obsolete model kits and that they are getting screwed by GW.

Yes.
I think people thinking this is going to be "WHFB 9th, just ignore the missing decade" are set to be very disappointed.

I admittedly can't tell what GW will do - but they will want me to buy new minis. Not use the ones I bought 10-25 years ago.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/10/09/sunday-preview-kill-team-expands-middle-earth-heroes-return-and-new-hobby-tools/

Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got a busy week right here on the Warhammer Community website. There are reveals for Warcry, more on Kill Team: Shadowvaults, and an update on The Old World.

 Platuan4th wrote:
There wasn't even that. The game launched with the idea that you just put down what you wanted and played.

One of my favorite things about the AoS launch version is that the core rules actually included the sudden death rule.

Also, just for the record, the correct way to phrase it is that sudden death helps your three Nagashs defeat five Goblins. Cut it out with this wound counting nonsense the players came up with and embrace the game designers' vision already.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Old World is not getting cancelled. There's no way current GW would pass up on the biggest nostalgia trip to the bank possible, when even brave new AoS is dredging ideas from WFB's past.

I agree but I think we all have to brace for disappointment.

My guess:
Launch box with 2 factions.
3-5 insanely priced army books for the old factions
Made to order?
Death

The disappointment is going to be that everyone jumping the gun and building armies for the game before we even know much about it won't be able to use half the stuff that they thought they could, and then within a year all the legacy stuff will be sidelined into a "legends" type format where they won't get balance updates and will be considered unusable by the community at large. Even though its predictable, folks will still whinge that they spent thousands of dollars buying and countless hours assembling and painting obsolete model kits and that they are getting screwed by GW.

You're not wrong, but wouldn't it be just as predictable to GW as it is to us? Wouldn't the question then be why GW doesn't market the Old World accordingly instead of inviting discontent with a way too early announcement and nothing to follow up on it?

Maybe fan satisfaction is otiose in a niche.

If GW releases a rerange for skavens in the Old World before AoS ill die of irony

Garrac wrote:
If GW releases a rerange for skavens in the Old World before AoS ill die of irony

? It would be the same range? Skaven are basically identical.

Honestly don't know if I should base up my unbuilt fantasy Skaven for square or round.

I'm so scared of them ruining Skaven that I've been slowly amassing a collection to avoid the worst outcome. I just need a Doomwheel and I'll be safe from the worst of it. Once that's done, I can finish collecting Clanrats to actually build an army.

Even if The Old World is bad, I'll just keep playing 6th edition, but in person instead of on TTS. It's not the end of the world for me, unless they ruin the Skaven line of models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, square is better, because I'll never touch Age of Sigmar.

Could magnetize squares onto round base extenders. 3d printed ones come pretty cheap, and are thin enough the magnetization would go through to a tray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I'm so scared of them ruining Skaven that I've been slowly amassing a collection to avoid the worst outcome. I just need a Doomwheel and I'll be safe from the worst of it. Once that's done, I can finish collecting Clanrats to actually build an army.

Even if The Old World is bad, I'll just keep playing 6th edition, but in person instead of on TTS. It's not the end of the world for me, unless they ruin the Skaven line of models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, square is better, because I'll never touch Age of Sigmar.

Could look at the Underworlds Skaven bands to get an idea of the aethetics & motifs they are going with, though obviously those are far more dynamic than units would be.

If GW didn't stop selling Doomwheels when the blew up the Old World, they're not gonna stop when they bring it back.

My worry isn't that they'll stop selling anything. My worry is where the Skaven aesthetic will go if they update all my favorite models. I don't like the new Deathmaster because of the absolute lack of emotion, but the AoS Skryre guy is fine, if not just a bit tall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never realized they did an Underworlds thing for Skaven. Maybe I'll grab a pack to run as Assassins with different loadouts. That could be fun.

jullevi wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/10/09/sunday-preview-kill-team-expands-middle-earth-heroes-return-and-new-hobby-tools/

Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got a busy week right here on the Warhammer Community website. There are reveals for Warcry, more on Kill Team: Shadowvaults, and an update on The Old World.

Let's hope for something other than a new map-update this time!

 Ohman wrote:

jullevi wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/10/09/sunday-preview-kill-team-expands-middle-earth-heroes-return-and-new-hobby-tools/

Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got a busy week right here on the Warhammer Community website. There are reveals for Warcry, more on Kill Team: Shadowvaults, and an update on The Old World.

Let's hope for something other than a new map-update this time!

Hopefully. We've basically had nothing since the start of the year, and even then all we got was stuff to do with TW:W3. Now that that's released it should at least be something other than Kislev and Cathay.