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That's understandable, a buddy sold me some metal sisters for dirt cheap to flesh out my army and the scale difference is pretty rough

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
That's understandable, a buddy sold me some metal sisters for dirt cheap to flesh out my army and the scale difference is pretty rough

This is the main reason why I'm going to try and not get any of the new plastic models. If I do end up needing more units, I'm planning on getting more metal ones from ebay and the likes. I think I'm pretty good right now but time will tell.

The plastic models are simply amazing. I have waited for this twenty years, and I'm finally starting a Sister army because of them.

 Crimson wrote:
The plastic models are simply amazing. I have waited for this twenty years, and I'm finally starting a Sister army because of them.

I'm not arguing that they don't look great. The scale it just a (small) disappointment for those of us that already have full sisters armies that the change IMHO would throw off. Enough of my army is already modeled "illegally" with options that were legal in "Witchhunters" (ie Evicerators on Seraphim Superior) but have been long removed

On a tactics note, what are peoples thoughts on Sacred Rights. I'm thinking mostly Divine Guidance as general and Aegis of the Emperor vs psyker heavy forces

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The plastic models are simply amazing. I have waited for this twenty years, and I'm finally starting a Sister army because of them.

I'm not arguing that they don't look great. The scale it just a (small) disappointment for those of us that already have full sisters armies that the change IMHO would throw off. Enough of my army is already modeled "illegally" with options that were legal in "Witchhunters" (ie Evicerators on Seraphim Superior) but have been long removed

On a tactics note, what are peoples thoughts on Sacred Rights. I'm thinking mostly Divine Guidance as general and Aegis of the Emperor vs psyker heavy forces

Some of them aren't too bad, seraphim for example don't look very different aside from the wings being smaller, and the repentia aren't super noticeable either, but man the regular sisters are a good 2 foot height difference if you were talking "in real life". And the bases don't help either, especially with some really odd choices like the new repentia being on 28mm bases instead of 25's for some bizarre reason. I'm probably going to have a mix but will likely keep the models in separate units where possible.

As for sacred rights I never cared much for abilities that give +1 AP on a 6 to wound. I was thinking mostly Hand of the Emperor or Spirit of the Martyr, both pair well with sisters on foot, but I could see Aegis, passion, and light of the emperor all having uses. I feel like you could roll 2d6 most games and end up alright, especially since you can reroll them throughout the game and avoid a reroll. Probably woundnt pick one unless I knew I really needed it, like aegis against 1k sons or something.

I have rolled my Sacred Rites every game and come out okay. Don't forget the reroll stratagem.

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Sure. I mean, except for the fact that blessed bolts maybe didn't exist before?

I'd guess the nerf is probably there to give dominions a reason to exist. With Argent shroud you can get them in rapid with blessed bolts turn 1 without a transport - fairly solid, cheap offensive firepower. I like that better than melta dominions.

the_scotsman wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Sure. I mean, except for the fact that blessed bolts maybe didn't exist before?

I'd guess the nerf is probably there to give dominions a reason to exist. With Argent shroud you can get them in rapid with blessed bolts turn 1 without a transport - fairly solid, cheap offensive firepower. I like that better than melta dominions.

Blessed Bolts existed in the beta codex.

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP

im surprised there may be a bigger market for metal sisters than i thought. wouldn't guessed scale creep working in my favor potentially.

i think ive already answered to sacred rites, but im mostly feeling hand of the Emperor, because i don't really care for divine guidance personally, even though it probably has more merit. Aegis for anti-psyker and in my opinion the best when useful.

My thoughts on rites are +1 ap on bolters against melee armies, +3 deny against pyscher heavy, and 5+ shootback against everything else.

Bdrone wrote:
im surprised there may be a bigger market for metal sisters than i thought. wouldn't guessed scale creep working in my favor potentially.

i think ive already answered to sacred rites, but im mostly feeling hand of the Emperor, because i don't really care for divine guidance personally, even though it probably has more merit. Aegis for anti-psyker and in my opinion the best when useful.

given you can p;ick your rites at the start of a fight I can see switching things up[ as nesscary.

fighting 1k sons or another psykic heavy list? grab aegis of the emperor, fighting a long distance focused gunline where you're wanting to get in close ASAP? hand.
etc

BrianDavion wrote:


given you can p;ick your rites at the start of a fight I can see switching things up[ as nesscary.

fighting 1k sons or another psykic heavy list? grab aegis of the emperor, fighting a long distance focused gunline where you're wanting to get in close ASAP? hand.
etc

of course! the sacred rite is flexiable, but id still say the most powerful when the situation calls for it is Aegis. if anything the question isn't so much what sacred rite to use, or whether or not you will have them or ally in someone else, because aside from an inquisitor you can't ally anything else in while having them.

Is anyone considering triple battalion? I meant to start with brigade + battalion, but I got drawn in three directions. Valorous Heart camps in the back with Exorcists and heavy bolters, Bloody Rose advances with Seraphim and stormbolters, Argent Shroud flanks with meltaguns, heavy flamers, and stormbolter Dominions. The last 50 points were hard to spend, and I feel like I could trade the Dialogus and some hardware for more bodies. Definitely open for suggestions... and is it legal / costed properly?

Also, which units to combine into a brigade, and under which order, or maybe just which of these works least well?

I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.

I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.

Lammia wrote:
I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.

I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.

Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.

So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?

 MacPhail wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.

I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.

Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.

So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?

For the most part yes.
Some tournaments might require you to pick warlord traits/relics while building your list, always check the tournament rules.

 MacPhail wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.

I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.

Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.

So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?

Yes, aldough in WTC you need to set "default" warlord traits and relics. If you don't say otherwise, those are your load out, but you can normally determine them before game.

Just played a 2000 point game with (borrowed) Sisters. We played an ITC mission. I ran a single Brigade detachment of Valorous Heart. And I got my ass kicked hard because I really didn't know much of what I was supposed to be doing with the army. I ran a pretty good selection of units including 2 Melta Dominion units in Immolators (probably use Repressors next time even though they can't scout move with Doms inside) and 3 Exorcists. I also had Celestine and a Rhino full of a Missionary and 9 Arco-flatulents (that's what I call them now hehehe), plus 2 Seraphim units with 2 chicks with Inferno Pistols in each, 6 double SB Battle Sister units, 2 Imagifiers, and a Dialogus. My Warlord was a Canoness with the extra Miracle Dice trait (too bad most of my miracle dice were 1's and 2's all game).

In future, I'll probably just run a Valorous Heart Spearhead of a Canoness, Imagifier and 3 Exorcists, plus a brigade of Bloody Rose or something. Also I think despite how powerful she is Celestine may be a trap in ITC play (fine in other formats or for casual play), mostly due to how many victory points she potentially coughs up. That boost to Shield of Faith is nice though to give Exorcists a 5++. Too bad the one Warlord Trait only works on Infantry and not vehicles. I'd like to try running Repentia instead of Arcos since they benefit from Order rules and they can get stupid because of it. So far at least I'm learning a few things and can maybe start to plan my model purchases.

St C's Shield of Faith boost only works on Infantry (as does Juniths and the Warlord Trait)

I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.

With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?

Lemondish wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP

It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?

gunchar wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP

It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?

It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.

Losing Shield of Faith buffs on vehicles is.

Celestine being separated from her Geminae is.

Losing a storm bolter is easy to shrug off.

Agreed!

in fairness celestine being seperated from her bodyguards is no suprise, if she wasn't before that made ehr a strange exception to the norm in 8th

Lemondish wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP

It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?

It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.

Losing Shield of Faith buffs on vehicles is.

Celestine being separated from her Geminae is.

Losing a storm bolter is easy to shrug off.

BSS superiors losing their most efficient weapon option is significant. BSS are already suffering as a result of the new codex paradigm(i.e all transports are significantly worse), this is an additional reduction in efficacy. Unless you're taking melta squads, which is mostly an argent shroud thing, there's not another option you can give a sister superior that's as good for the points as a stormbolter.

The pistols are impractical, condemnors don't offer much value, anything that uses the regular flamer profile suffers from that weapon's inefficiency, combi-plasma are simply too expensive for their output when you can't amass significant numbers of them.

I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.

ERJAK wrote:


I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.

Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?

 Crazyterran wrote:
I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.

With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?

Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.

Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?

Ignoring the obvious strawman;

On the exorcist, sure losing the 4++ sucks, but the buffs to the exorcist was compensation enough that they're still useful(even incredibly strong) and don't feel like a noose around the list's necks the way battle sisters do now(argent shroud exluded). If the new exorcist had access to a 4++, it would be pretty busted ngl.

The point is that when vehicles get nerfed the army just shifts away from vehicles. Don't feel like the exorcist is tough enough without the 4++ to be worth 170pts? Well now Multi-melta retributors are a viable option and they can get a 4++ no problem.

What are you gonna shift to when battle sisters get nerfed? Your only option is allies, especially when you consider that the army is so voraciously command point hungry that you're looking at 9 units of battle sisters most of the time.

Hits to battle sisters cannot be mitigated the same way hits to other units can because we need command points too much.

This whole thing is why Argent Shroud seems so much stronger than I thought it would be in the previews. They're the only Conviction that can really do anything with battle sisters offensively. Sure, Valorous heart can make them basically unkillable, but they don't actually do anything but camp objectives.

ERJAK wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.

With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?

Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.

Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?

Ignoring the obvious strawman;
.

No strawman. Your words. "Losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off {than the loss of storm bolters which is what we were discussing}."

So. I found that odd to say the least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.

With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?

Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.

Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?

Ignoring the obvious strawman;
.

No strawman. Your words. "Losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off {than the loss of storm bolters which is what we were discussing}."

So. I found that odd to say the least.

Lemondish wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?

They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.

Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP

It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?

It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.

Losing Shield of Faith buffs on vehicles is.

Celestine being separated from her Geminae is.

Losing a storm bolter is easy to shrug off.

I feel a part of the "outrage" is the fact that it was a very asinine thing to remove, and it's clear GW did it on purpose. If theyd removed all the combiweapons on sisters, or removed stormbolters entirely, it'd be one thing. But to only remove it on the superiors, when you get 4 of the stupid things in a regular sisters kit just feels completely out of left field.

It's not like it was busted or anything. Only idea I have is that I guess they didnt want Canonesses to have it. But if that's the case, why not just do an asterisk like they did for hand flamers?

I started sisters with the plastic box, so it's no skin off my bones, but it does feel like a middle finger to sisters players to intentionally remove that option when they knew a lot of metal players had the option modeled and were regularly using it. It would've been 0 issue allowing superiors to have it. Yes, one squad gets 20% more firepower with a strat, whoop de Doo. There are 100 point units in this game that with proper setup can one shot anything in the game, I don't see that stormbolter being the end of the world.