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What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?

Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?

Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.

That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?

Niiru wrote:
What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?

Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?

Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.

That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?

Valorous Heart seems like the go-to for me. Especially with Space Marines and their pesky Doctrines dominating the competitive meta. Being able to ignore AP-1 or even -2 with an Imagifier nearby is a good way to negate their shenanigans. Plus 6+ FnP is good to have. Other than that, i like Bloody Rose for units like Seraphim, Zephyrim, and Repentia. Even Celestians can really get some teeth with that one. Make sure to bring a Missionary or Preacher for even more attacks, especially with Repentia.

My current list idea uses Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose together. Here it is for the curious:

The Doms and melta Retributors go in the Repressor, while the Repentia, Missionary and Imagifier go in the Rhino. The Repressor can't scout with the girls inside, but that's okay since it's mainly there to protect them while they use its fire points to shoot out. I actually have 6 points left but no idea what to spend them on other than maybe a power weapon or plasma pistol on somebody. The one Canoness only has the PP/PS because that's what's on the Canoness in the box set.

My army has obviously started with the models in the special edition set so I'll be basing my list on that. Feel like VH is the best order with the extra ap on a 6 to wound being the extra power granted for them being a pure force.

For the first portion of the army I'll be buying another box of sisters in January when they are released so I'll be up to 20. Depending on how flush I'm feeling I might go for a Excorcist as well but I doubt I'll get that until February.

Want a solid base of resilient sister squads and excorcists too hold the line with distraction carnifex squads of mortifiers and rhino mounted repentia charging forward. Finally a second turn drop of some bloody rose Seraphim and Zepharim!

Speaking of Missionary or Preacher, which miniatures do you use? Don't really want to buy the current 20+yo ones sold by GW ...

I suppose it's possiable those ones will get plastic updates, not really holding my breath, taking some thought about it I don't intend to use eaither. I want sister's of battle, not "sisters of battle and some asshat screaming 'hit them harder!"

 JeffVimes wrote:
Speaking of Missionary or Preacher, which miniatures do you use? Don't really want to buy the current 20+yo ones sold by GW ...

I mean... I use Uriah...

Niiru wrote:
What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?

Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?

Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.

That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?

I think it depends on the units you like.

Infantry in general: Valorous Heart or Argent Shroud depending on your playstyle. I lean towards Valorous Heart here personally because I generally just do anything that makes 8th less deadly. Dominions really want to be Argent Shroud especially with storm bolters.

Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.

Big 15-gal blob squads: Sacred Rose. I'd say this might be the least appealing trait in general, yes it is very nice to be able to spread the buffs from your characters far and wide with the huge-ass squads you can comfortably take in SR, and you can take the cherub and simulacrum on every squad without feeling bad about it, the problem arises when your stuff starts getting bogged in combat.

Seraphim/Zephyrim/Repentia: Bloody Rose (obviously). Also kind of Celestians, who can actually make use of their 2A and WS3+ native stats in BR?

Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.

the_scotsman wrote:
Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.


Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.

Valorous heart could be useful for both of these. With all the -1 and -2 high ROF dominating AT since inv saves are so useful vehicles with 3+(2+ in cover) ignoring -2 is pretty sweet. Those will be high priority targets and you need to expose yourself to shoot with exorcists so...

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.


Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.

Valorous heart could be useful for both of these. With all the -1 and -2 high ROF dominating AT since inv saves are so useful vehicles with 3+(2+ in cover) ignoring -2 is pretty sweet. Those will be high priority targets and you need to expose yourself to shoot with exorcists so...

Yeah IMO Val Heart is pretty much the default that will never not be good for any given army setup. I do think Exorcists are the best choice to reach for with any real heavy miracle die generation-centric build. There's pretty much nothing in the army that doesn't like ignoring -1AP and a 6+++, though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Martyred Lady is a tricky one to envision. I think you really have to like Junith Eruita, and I think the best setup to use her is in a kind of rhino rush situation where you roll up with a bunch of squads that work well exactly 1 lady down - retributors, dominions with 4x specials, BSS squads with combi-plasmas? I dunno.

Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.

I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.

I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.

I find that hard to believe with respect to Immolators. An extra D6" move while still being able to fire off your 12" range heavy flamers is pretty slick for those things.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.

I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.

I find that hard to believe with respect to Immolators. An extra D6" move while still being able to fire off your 12" range heavy flamers is pretty slick for those things.

Immolation flamers are assault anyways, so any Order can do this. And they auto-hit, so the -1 for advancing and shooting is irrelevant.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

True, but all those guns are what people are spamming since they're dual purpose. How often do you see dedicated anti-armour weaponry on your tables? I have to say, I don't see it much. People spam middle of the road, high shot output weaponry. That is where Valorous Heart shines. Also those guns might be better off shooting normal sisters, but since they'll also be shrugging AP-2 as well, you're leaving your opponent with no good targets for a lot of their weaponry.

Sure lascannons ruin your day, but you've got 6++ and miracle dice for those

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

Assault Cannons autocannons and heavy bolters are typically seen in imp fist list setups where they become AP-2 Ignore Cover Damage 2 or damage 3, in which case they magically become anti-tank guns rather than anti-infantry guns, and indeed are much much more efficient when fired at exorcists than BSS. As long as those bananalads are repeatedly ramming their bolt rifles into the competitive 40k meta, Valorous Heart is going to be the way to bring sisters and have them compete (And I actually think they're a really really good answer, incidentally)

Also, autocannons are 20% more efficient firing at exorcists than at sisters because they lose the benfit of damage 2 vs the sisters, even disregarding imp fist benefits. Same with the avenger gatling cannon. Losing damage 2 is a huge deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

True, but all those guns are what people are spamming since they're dual purpose. How often do you see dedicated anti-armour weaponry on your tables? I have to say, I don't see it much. People spam middle of the road, high shot output weaponry. That is where Valorous Heart shines. Also those guns might be better off shooting normal sisters, but since they'll also be shrugging AP-2 as well, you're leaving your opponent with no good targets for a lot of their weaponry.

Sure lascannons ruin your day, but you've got 6++ and miracle dice for those

Well, a 5+ armor save and a 6+++, because I'm bringing a sanctum so I can actually say with confidence my exorcists will have cover :p

I do wonder whether exorcists bring anything particularly spicy to the table vs standard marine lists or whether you'd be better off just bringing a sea of bodies and playing to objectives. You are, after all, one of the few things that those IH/Imp Fist/Raven Guard lists can't just hose off the table over 5 turns.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.

I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.

I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.

Lascannons are easy enough to focus down, you only need to take one volley from them unless your opponent is spamming the hell out of them. Meltaguns are never getting anywhere near your Exorcists, Sisters can spam well enough to screen them out. D3 weaponry tends to be AP-2, so you shrug most of them. Necron Destroyers ruin your life, but they ruin everyone's lives.

And yeah Scotsman, depending on what the model looks like/size, I'll be bringing a Battle Sanctum along to act as free cover for my tanks too.

valorous heart is a pretty solid answer to all of these "super points efficient" anti tank choices like a krast crusader or the above mentioned ap-2 D2/3 weaponry.

I'm real curious to see how well it fares despite being unable to table people

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.

I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.

This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.

Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.

Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:

Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:

Twin Heavy Bolter, 6 shots S5 AP-2 D2: 1.77 unsaved wounds
Twin Assault Cannon, 12 shots S6 Ap-2 D2: 3.55 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

now if you upgrade it to twin lascannon/twin multi-melta for 20 points more:

Twin multi-Melta, 2 shots S8 AP-5 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
Twin Lascannon, 2 shots S9 AP-4 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.

I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.

This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.

Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.

Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:

Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:

Twin Heavy Bolter, 6 shots S5 AP-2 D2: 1.77 unsaved wounds
Twin Assault Cannon, 12 shots S6 Ap-2 D2: 3.55 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

now if you upgrade it to twin lascannon/twin multi-melta for 20 points more:

Twin multi-Melta, 2 shots S8 AP-5 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
Twin Lascannon, 2 shots S9 AP-4 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.

I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves. Used to be only lower strength weapons with Rending "might" have a chance if they got lucky

 Salted Diamond wrote:

I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves

That used to be "not anti tank weapons do 1 damage" but as things have escalated that isn't necessarily the case anymore

 Crimson wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Any one here considering hand flamers for Superiors?

I am considering it for my upcoming Bloody Rose force, but I don't understand anything about Sisters, so you probably shouldn't listen me...

If they work anything like their GSC equivalent, then they're absolutely worth using.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I keep saying that this could be fixed with a Keyword.

Anti-Vehicle "This weapon can damage units with the vehicle keyword."

If your gun doesn't have this, it cannot wound the target.

Examples:

Autocannons
Melta
Missiles
Brightlances
etc

Not:
Bolt Weapons
Lasguns
Flamers
etc.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.

I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.

This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.

Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.

Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:

Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:

Twin Heavy Bolter, 6 shots S5 AP-2 D2: 1.77 unsaved wounds
Twin Assault Cannon, 12 shots S6 Ap-2 D2: 3.55 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

now if you upgrade it to twin lascannon/twin multi-melta for 20 points more:

Twin multi-Melta, 2 shots S8 AP-5 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
Twin Lascannon, 2 shots S9 AP-4 D6+1: 3.99 unsaved wounds
2 Stormstrike Missiles, 2 shots S8 Ap-4 D4: 3.55 unsaved wounds.

Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.

I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves. Used to be only lower strength weapons with Rending "might" have a chance if they got lucky

Except that in the last incarnation of it, the AV system actually made high-ROF, low AP weaponry BETTER at wounding tanks.

Also, again, we are talking about a VERY specific, right now meta moment where everything is dominated by the 800 pound gorillas of the marine supplements and in particular the two Devastator based super-doctrines.

Valorous Heart is such a supremely powerful counter against high-ROF Imp Fist and to a lesser extent Iron Hands lists that have been flattening the meta for the last few months that I have a hard time believing that their current incarnation isn't at least partially a spider sent to swallow a fly and make the supplements seem less pants-on-head ridiculous.

If, in a couple months, GW decides that they've hit their end of year sales targets with the new primaris stuff and they do something like say you get EITHER the rules from the supplement OR the rules from Marine Codex 2.0 and not both, or they heavily nerf the supplements or marine units, Valorous Heart will no longer be the be-all end-all. A Valorous Heart list is going to be strictly worse than almost any other devotion against an ork list or a traditional "lasguns and basilisks" Guard list setup.

There is almost a 100% chance that the first few sisters lists we see taking top places will be using Valorous Heart, with plenty of cheap bodies and kitted out to kill MEQ.

Sisters are now on Battlescribe.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

Thing is many have those as anti at as well as they are better than say lascannon. Why take poor weapon when you can take better that deals with hordes as well? Nevermind if who will spam dam2 bolters all day. 100 s5 -2 d2 shots will wreck tanks better than lascannons would.

 Togusa wrote:
I keep saying that this could be fixed with a Keyword.

Anti-Vehicle "This weapon can damage units with the vehicle keyword."

If your gun doesn't have this, it cannot wound the target.

Examples:

Autocannons
Melta
Missiles
Brightlances
etc

Not:
Bolt Weapons
Lasguns
Flamers
etc.

I really like this idea. Simiple, easy to implement, effective, and can give some options for future weapon (high S w/o the key word)

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I keep saying that this could be fixed with a Keyword.

Anti-Vehicle "This weapon can damage units with the vehicle keyword."

If your gun doesn't have this, it cannot wound the target.

Examples:

Autocannons
Melta
Missiles
Brightlances
etc

Not:
Bolt Weapons
Lasguns
Flamers
etc.

I really like this idea. Simiple, easy to implement, effective, and can give some options for future weapon (high S w/o the key word)

I started a thread for it over in proposed rules.

Also, it even occurred to me you could do the same with "Anti-Infantry" and use it to dole out extra wounds. For example, a Heavy Bolter could have the Anti-Infantry Keyword that allows each successful wound against an infantry unit to count as 2. Not sure, might be way too powerful without some points changes, but it's worth thinking about.

So with Valorous heart, Im thinking of using the idea of the old guard tactic of a "melta hedge", except it's taken to a logical extreme guard players could never dream of. I remember it mainly being a thing in older editions as that was the age of vehicles capable of being one shot, but the idea still exists in 8th, but now mainly as plasma spam.

The idea of the melta hedge was simple, spam infantry, spam meltas. For guard it was a way to make sure opponents didn't just ignore your screen of guardsmen and only go after the tanks and artillery. With meltas, guardsmen were a threat, but still very cheap, even at 15 squads, your meltas added up to the cost of a single tank. The opponent had two choices.

1.ignore guardsmen, go after the tanks. This allowed guardsmen to aggressively push up the table and hedge in enemy vehicles. The guardsmen usually wouldn't be hitting things turn one, but by 2 and 3, enemy tanks rapidly ran out of room to maneuver as guardsmen hedged them in and started taking potshots. Yes, half the shots missed and not all got through, but you usually had 10-20 meltas across the table backed up by deepstriking stormtroopers with melta (seraphim for us) and you still had artillery and tanks. Not much could escape that for long.

2. Go after the guardsmen. Congratulations, you are now killing guardsmen, my tanks are mostly safe and I will do what I do best. Guard player at this point does tried and true "guess I'll just shoot him" strategy and usually has enough guardsmen to grab objectives in mop up phase of game.

The problem is meltas are more expensive now, and they add up fast. If you want to spam meltas, and seraphim, and dominons, and retributors, it gets expensive really quick and you're probably not taking exorcists at that point. I feel Celestine is a must and that doesn't help either. So you either double down on infantry entirely and consider retributors as your tanks, leaving you at the mercy of range, or you sacrifice retributors to take exorcists, which gives lascannons and other AP 3 multidamage weapons a reason for existing.

The other issue is do you splurge for simulacrums and cherubs? If you are spamming infantry and relying on this idea that a lone survivor or two from a squad can seriously damage targets, is the ability to give a unit roll 2d6, pick highest for MD that it can use on itself without eating your single freebie MD worth the cost of a single sister? This is a genuine question because every sister in this list will matter. A 10 woman squad with combimelta/melta is 119, simulcrum/cherub 129. Guard are paying roughly that for a Russ now.

I'm not entirely sure, I need to get some games in and see which theories hold up and which dont. Not having a way to get exorcists an invuln higher than a 6+ is a glaring weakness just begging to be exploited by weapons with nothing better to do. But at the same time you really need something with a threat radius greater than 30", even with a horde of sisters running up the board and seraphim dropping in. I've played enough hammer and anvil as guard to know that despite what people may claim, 48" and up weapon ranges absolutely have a purpose and are not to be underestimated. Given that a 1/3 of deployments involve coming at each other from short edges, a way to reach out and hit long range targets is a must. Otherwise guard will be an incredibly hard counter because their bread and butter are weapons that ignore VH strengths. Our weapons either have 0 ap and don't care, or usually ap3, and don't care. Your Exorcists will be murdered at range by basilisk fire, the return fire you do get to do will kill 1-2 guard tanks, and as you eventually close the distance the guard player, with proper play, can shred your sisters with efficient FRFSRF. With retributors, you've got no return fire turn 1 against a guard player turtled up, and the retributors are still at the mercy of basilisks, but can be protected by cover or overlapping Celestine and the WLT for a 4++/6+++. Every list will have a hard counter of course, but just something to consider with VH.

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.

Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.

Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.

Thing is many have those as anti at as well as they are better than say lascannon. Why take poor weapon when you can take better that deals with hordes as well? Nevermind if who will spam dam2 bolters all day. 100 s5 -2 d2 shots will wreck tanks better than lascannons would.

Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.