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Yea that is a tough amount of CP to potentially pump into a unit just to make them at par. If the Seraphim strat made their guns 12" till the end of the turn, it would be worth but unless I find I'm just taking in miracle dice by turn 2 it's hard to justify as anything other than rule of cool.

tneva82 wrote:
Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.

It just feels weird not having a big squad & fragile. But I haven’t played sisters since 5 edition (back then it was all 10 woman squads).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Seraphim are a liability, I’d drop down to 1 Seraphim squad & I’d swap for a vanguard detachment & add repentia in a rhino. It may need some playing around to fit them in.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
My bad, thanks for the clarification. So it's a stupid and asinine wargear restriction as to whether or not she gets to take the banner, but it's not the one I thought it was, got it.

I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.

Agreed. At least this one is minor one(would be way more annoying if she had to downgrade her weapon from standard power weapon to chainsword...) but still...What on earth PLASMA PISTOL makes you unable to have a banner? Gee. I'm guessing the banner will be sculpted to arm with bolt pistol held in arm or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pauly wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.

It just feels weird not having a big squad & fragile. But I haven’t played sisters since 5 edition (back then it was all 10 woman squads).

Fraqile? It's the bigger squads that are fraqile. Same toughness, same save, same amount of wounds for cost but you will be suffering casualties from morale as well.

There is some merit in taking a 15 woman squad, mostly to get really bolter happy with trinity bonus. Especially with the martyred lady.

That said, it is quite telegraphed and there is no transport which can take 15 models in it.

You will need an hospitalier to avoid massive morale losses.

That's why I asked about stratagems. Obviously bigger squad is more efficient with stratagem. Generally bigger squad needs reason and the reason is stratagem efficiency. There's some merit for big melee squads to limit intercept sttratagem efficiency but BSS aren't exactly melee squads.

edit: checked celestian statline as elsewhere there was discussion on them.BS was right and they did have 2 attacks. That's pretty sweet. So for 1 pts you get better WS, extra attack, reroll all hits near canoness and the bodyguard. Only issue they have is inferior bodyguard vs tau drones but tau drones are the exception and that they are elite rather than troops so that's 7th infantry squad you commit to. At least bodyguard is "can" so if you get hit by lascannon you can let the canoness take the hit(and say MD that lascannon) rather than suffer tons of MW's if you deem celestians more useful to keep around.

If they were troops I would be spamming celestians FOR SURE.

Fraqile? It's the bigger squads that are fraqile. Same toughness, same save, same amount of wounds for cost but you will be suffering casualties from morale as well.

Sisters have plenty of ways to dodge morale mechanics. Sacred Rose definitely benefits large squads, and there is some good synergism there. Large squads protect and better utilize Symalctums and cherubs better which in turn allow you to burst with CP better, and use more miracle dice on that sacred rose unit that will then give you more back in return.

15 Sacred Rose sisters geared for holy trinity in one way or another would be my best bet. Nasty overwatch too


Our martyred lady benefits from large squads (and small, they are good candidate of mixed MSU's and blobs).

How you plan to use more md on bigger squad? More bolters don't benefit from md as even with banner max 2 shots gets md. 2 meltagun is ideal as you can use md for both shots. Long shot charges yeah bigger squad helps more but gee bss arn't often doing 9+ charges.

Stratagems i admitted in first reply. That's why i asked any stratagem in mind. But unless you are planning stratagems in advance better survivability and more big guns better

Not saying big squads are bad but need specific combo to be worth it. Multiple huge squads under celestine or specif stratagem you plan to use from getgo(like shoot twice on ork lootas) etc

Help me check my thinking on Miracle Dice and squad upgrades here...

Let's say I have two BSS, each with melta/melta/combi-melta (which I'm thinking I'll do now that Dominions aren't the obvious melta-bearers they once were). I move them into range any way I can (Argent Shroud, Hand of the Emperor, packed into Rhinos, etc.) and the Shooting Phase rolls around...

I have a Simulacrum Imperialis on one of the squads. I use a MD on the other squad as my once per phase, and then the Simulacrum allows me to use a second one in the same phase. Both dice come from my pool, and I probably use them for damage assuming each squad generates a hit and a wound.

Now I run the same two squads with Incensor Cherubs. The Cherub text says I sacrifice them at the start of the phase, so now I have dedicated MD, slightly better than average and not from my pool. Does the first one count as my once per phase and does my second one require the Simulacrum, or could I use two in a phase just because of how the Cherub text is worded (only for that unit, and only in that phase)? Could I use a first MD (a third) from my pool and then use the two from the Cherubs for a total of three in a phase, or would that require a second Simulacrum?

My current thinking is that I need (across my two melta units) two Cherubs and one Simulacrum to get two better-than-average MDs in the Shooting phase, but couldn't use a third from my pool just because of the Cherubs (wording on the Cherub being "only" rather than "must"). If I bought a second Simulacrum I could potentially do one elsewhere first using a single MD from the pool (like for Exorcist damage) and then the two melta squads with their upgrades. Am I right on this? Is there a better way to load MDs into the Shooting phase?

Cherub just gives you extra md. Not chance to use act of faith. So if you trigger cherub, use act of faith with other unit and try to use act with chbrub unit you need banner or some other source to get additional act of faith.

Alternatively cherub squad could use one act for melta 1, then with banner act for melta 2. Next squad could only act once with banner then

tneva82 wrote:
Cherub just gives you extra md. Not chance to use act of faith. So if you trigger cherub, use act of faith with other unit and try to use act with chbrub unit you need banner or some other source to get additional act of faith.

Alternatively cherub squad could use one act for melta 1, then with banner act for melta 2. Next squad could only act once with banner then

the right way to imagine it, is you get one miracle per phase, thats it

A simulacrum lets you use one miracle per phase for that unit, ignoring other limitations.
The wording isn't 100% clear if a simulacrum lets a unit use two acts of faith in a phase if they were also the first to use one, but since it isn't game breaking or even very useful thats the way ive been using it.
cherub just gives you a dice as listed, but it can only be used by the offended unit and only in that phase

After a few more test games here are my thoughts -

I really like Bloody Rose Zephyrim a lot. They will kill almost anything. I kind of want to run 30 of them, I wish they could take another weaponpon other than a bolt pistol and/or fight twice.

A Bloody Rose Canoness with the Beneficence and Righteous Rage is a murder machine. I wish she could take a jump pack. Maybe PA4/5, whichever one we are in.

Celestine really is starting to feel like a waste of points. 2/3+ (Depending on Cover) and 5++ (For Seraphim/Zephyrim)/6++ is good enough. If she had an additional wound/attack or her bubble effected tanks than maybe she'd be worth 160 but right now she doesn't feel it and it sucks because she is so iconic. I would rather have 9 more Zephyrim than her.

With the buffs to marine dreads in Chapter Approved I'm also really starting to feel Exorcists are liability. I'm debating not taking any and taking Multi Melta Retributers. Yeah you lose some range but you pick up a lot in terms of survivability (10 woman squads) and it has similar damage output with the stratagem and the Simulacrum.

A question about fortifications.

Let's assume the Battle Sanctum is an awesome model and you make room for it by including a fortification detachment in your list.

Would you consider including any other fortifications now that you have a detachment? What would that be?

I have to agree with you on many points Rhynner.
Finally had some games too. Played VH brigade with an BR vanguard.

BR Canonesse:
She is absolutely hilarious for her 45 points.


Celestine:
You really don't take her for her dmg. The 4++ to our jump pack girls is huge the right match up.
Also she is a single model on a small 32mm base. So you can use here to fly forward 18" with a MD and charge 2d6 (possible high number again with MD) to tie something up.
Also our two other main HQs namely Missionary and Canonesse have diminishing returns so another option is nice.

Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution



Other observations I made during my games:

We are much more CP starved than MD. I definitely was too conservative with the latter.

Our army likes to be close together, so avoid splitting up as far as the mission and your opponent allows.

I have yet to try the banner but I think it in a unit like MM ret's it's a must take for 5 points.

Yeah especially if you run two or three units.

 lash92 wrote:

Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution

It will take some experimentation

min squads with 2MM and 2 cherubs have 3 ablative bodies and are cheeeap, not bad, great for filling out a brigade
larger squads can move up with your forces to hold the farther-back objectives and still contribute rather than being stuck in cover or be evaporated
I am more apt to stack for maximum alpha strike in exchange for less long term damage, so min squads with meltas and maybe dropping multimeltas in regular squads if they are taking a banner/cherub

I might be more interested in exo's if cleaning flames worked on the S5 rockets

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.

It's clearly rules written to the limitations of the kit.

I don't get it. How are you rationalizing that Retributors are more durable than Exorcists?

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't get it. How are you rationalizing that Retributors are more durable than Exorcists?

an exorcist is 170pts
a ret squad with 10 members, 2 multimeltas and 2 armorium cherubs and a banner are 169pts

ret squad can never take more than 1 damage from an attack, so it takes a minimum of 10 shots to kill them
an exorcist does not, so it will attract any/all multiwound weapons, thats a lot of weapons
rets are easy to give cover to, exo's need to be 50% concealed

as examples:
it takes 16 BS3 bolter shots to kill a ret in cover with a 6+++ so 160 bolter shots to kill a squad of rets in cover
There really aren't very many guns in the sweet spot of ap -3 or better AND shoot enough shots to annoy a bunch of cheap T3 models like a krast knight crusader is a monster anti tank weapon, but barely scratches the ret squad.

On the other hand, almost every heavy weapon that anyone is taking is presented a pretty good target in an exo, where the multidamage / high strength can quickly pay dividends, without that 4++ they aren't half a knight for half the points, they are more like 1/3rd of a knight for half the points, and many lists are removing a knight per turn these days.

Its not so much that rets are "so tough" on the books, its that they are cheaper than the weapons needed to remove them in significant enough numbers for the sisters player to care.

 lash92 wrote:
Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution

With current meta being -2 high ROF weapons for AT the valorous heart exorcist will be quite tough. And you get 12 T8 wounds vs 9 T3 wounds for bit cheaper. And long range. No need to go within 24" to get average 6 shots vs 4. And CP cheap(pretty much no real CP usage)

tneva82 wrote:

With current meta being -2 high ROF weapons for AT the valorous heart exorcist will be quite tough. And you get 12 T8 wounds vs 9 T3 wounds for bit cheaper. And long range. No need to go within 24" to get average 6 shots vs 4. And CP cheap(pretty much no real CP usage)

it depends on how much damage those shots do

if its one, the exo wins out

if its more than that, the troops rapidly become tougher per-point

Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.

Current meta exorcist valorous heart is saying "bwahaha" at them. Current meta is against high S high AP high damage low # shots. With inv saves everywhere and marines being the thing to beat high ROF medium AP is the king.

You also get to avoid some return fire and have easier time being able to hang back in cover due to your range.

It´s not like we dont have high strength high AP shots in the meta atm:
- Ironhand character dread + chaplain dreads with twin las.
- Eldar Flyer
- Tau Fusion
- Other Sisters player with exorcists

It would be funny to run them against tripple riptide tau though.



Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!

tneva82 wrote:
Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.

okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.

I'll take that

Ideal Circumstances would be a an S4 AP-3 D1 weapon.

Which doesn't exist at range, I believe. However, there is a S4 AP-3 D2 weapon-Stalker Bolt Rifle under Devastator Doctrine.

Each hit on a Retributor does...

2/3 wounds
5/6 failed saves
1 point of damage
5/9 wounds per hit

On an Exorcist, that's...

1/6 wounds
5/6 failed saves
2 points of damage
5/18 wounds per hit

Or twice as durable. Cover helps the Rets slightly (as it does the Exorcist, though it's less likely to get it) but it's DEFINITELY more durable, even without cover and Rets getting it.

I'm not sure an iron hands list with 30-60 stalker bolters isn't also going to have the firepower to handily pick up a knights worth of T8 wounds as well, probably in addition to

I kind of like this list.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) Bloody Rose ++

+ HQ +

Canoness Chainsword, Inferno pistol

Missionary

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

+ Elites +

Zephyrim Squad
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol, Power sword

Zephyrim Squad
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol, Power sword

+ Fast Attack +

Seraphim Squad
. 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad
. 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad
. 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) Valorous Heart++

+ HQ +

Canoness Brazier of Holy Fire, Chainsword

Celestine

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

+ Elites +

Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Warrior

+ Heavy Support +

Retributor Squad
2x Armourium Cherub
. 4x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis

Retributor Squad
2x Armourium Cherub
. 4x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis

Retributor Squad
2x Armourium Cherub
. 4x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis

Rynner wrote:
I kind of like this list.

You could pull a few bodies out of one of your fast attack squads to fit another HQ choice in there and run a vanguard or heavy support detachment for an extra CP

Very solid list and pretty similar to the one I tested.
I made my Seraphim also VH so I can make a Brigade. Seems more efficient to have all those BSS being able to make use of ignoring -2 AP.

So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.