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the_scotsman wrote:
So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.

4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on one/ turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.

tneva82 wrote:
Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.

Current meta exorcist valorous heart is saying "bwahaha" at them. Current meta is against high S high AP high damage low # shots. With inv saves everywhere and marines being the thing to beat high ROF medium AP is the king.

You also get to avoid some return fire and have easier time being able to hang back in cover due to your range.

I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.

It's not just about the tank itself either, but the rest of the list supporting it. You can make a leman Russ (same exact durability and cheaper pointswise) work because you're usually running a bunch of them along with other vehicles. These Exorcists, at least from a lot of the lists I see here, are alone. I know as a guard player I wouldn't trust 3 tanks to survive past turn 2, even with ignoring up to -2 AP. There's just nothing else to draw the fire from them. If the opponent needs them gone, they'll do so. The rest of your list is T3 sisters. Literally anything with multidamage will be pointed at them and it will add up fast. If you were running a mechanized list with rhinos, immolators, and mortifiers, that'd be one thing. But an on foot VH sisters army makes me think the answer is retributors. They're easier to hide, can get better invulns and cover, and help saturate your opponents target priority because everything in your army is T3 infantry. They make multiple damage weapons pointless for the most part and that's always nice.

People are killing knights every turn and they're doing it when the knights have 4+ invulns most of the time. Ignoring ap2 really isn't much different there.

well yeah but thats a problem with sister's that there's little true solution for. we don't have a metric ton of tank options. Mortificiars might be a good thing to toss into a list to soak up anti-tank firepower, they're reasonably hard hitting and cost just over 50 points a pop, wind a unit or two of these up at the start and expect to see your opponent divert some anti-tank into them

The biggest issue I see with exorcists vs. Rets is an exorcist is still an effective platform without strats. Rets must have the range extender, which is only useable on one unit a turn, to be effective. Otherwise they're just 24" range, which is usually not good enough.

This is why I plan to run 3 exos and 1 maxed melta ret squad. That way I get the effective power of rets without the massive drop off you get for your second unit.

 Grundz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.

okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.

I'll take that

Gee. So you take the units which are not in meta now. Castellan's haven't been seen in long time in good lists. Volcano cannons even less.

I'm talking about the CURRENT META. You know the one that's being played right now. Not 1+ year old meta. That's old news. Sister codex did not even exists then. If you play against old meta you will lose as you will bring wrong tools.

You going to bring volcano cannons, lascannons etc when meta is bring 300 T3 TW1 6+ save models? Sounds like it.


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 Grundz wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.

4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.

Can stay alive better 1+ year old against meta

Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.

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 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.

Plassma: Retribution 0.69 kill per hit, exorcist 0.555 while having more wounds per point. Geeeeeeee! Wonderful. Oh and exorcist will be facing less plasma to begin with as you can be out of range. You know what plasma range tends to be? 24". What else is 24"? Multi-melta. What's exorcist? 48". Indeed that 24" will mean that unless you are running shroud order you aren't even quaranteed to shoot first turn except without 2CP stratagem for ONE unit. And if your ranged AT is all in one unit then you are in trouble.

And yes lascannons etc exists but in lesser numbers because most targets they face are stuff where lascannons suck. Invulnerable saves means high AP and low ROF just SUCKS. MD can be used nicely to block occasional one.

I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

I got started on my new box this week... I'm actually going to start with the Penitent just because it's an awesome model and I've never been able to field more than one, then convert three Seraphim into Zephyrim (to join my poor Geminae as a squad of 5), and then on to Repentia, which I've never owned at all. I guess my list building right now is more in the direction of what I can actually field now or very soon, vs. what's going to be most competitive in the long run.

 MacPhail wrote:
I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.

tneva82 wrote:
nonsense

Thats a lot to digest.
I mean:

https://www.battle-report.com/2019/11/10/2019-da-boyz-warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

I guess according to you, "the meta" is that ork list running a zillion gretchen?or the typical guard infantry spam list? because that seems to be the only list that remotely resembles what you are talking about (also 6th place brought 6x thermal cannons, that "dont exist" in the current meta)

You should be clearer about what your idea of the CURRENT META looks like if you are going to cry about no one reading your mind.

tneva82 wrote:

Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.

Inderdasting thoughts, how exactly would you be maximizing your points-to-melta shots on your alpha strike? by taking 4 meltas in one unit, or taking the minimum meltas in the maximimum number of units and stacking up extra shot cherubs? How does that math add up pro bro

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.

Yeah, I never did much with MM Rets... I guess I built that part of my army when HBs and HFs were more advantageous. I have about 3500 points of metal Sisters, but I think my only MM model got her gun taken away and became my Axe of Retribution Canoness back when that was a thing. When the Rets box drops I'll maybe build my way to a squad of 2 or 4 over time, but the 3x4 wall o' melta will probably take a back seat to building some solid melee options into my force.

 MacPhail wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.

Yeah, I never did much with MM Rets... I guess I built that part of my army when HBs and HFs were more advantageous. I have about 3500 points of metal Sisters, but I think my only MM model got her gun taken away and became my Axe of Retribution Canoness back when that was a thing. When the Rets box drops I'll maybe build my way to a squad of 2 or 4 over time, but the 3x4 wall o' melta will probably take a back seat to building some solid melee options into my force.

I actually ran MM in my normal squads, I liked having the big gun with them. Have so many as I got a bunch on the cheap in an eBay lot back in early 5th ed.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

Very few actually have the models to do this. They're mostly putting thoughts to paper.

Since the competitive meta is so heavily skewed towards lists building and their interaction with ITC secondaries, both things that happen before the game starts, it makes sense that list theory has become the basis for many a tactica thread. After all, with ITC being so prevalent, and the missions themselves being so simple with their nearly identical scenarios, those aspects are the only things that matter in a match. It helps that it means the largest issues with a list can be hammered out before buying a single model.

It unfortunately also means that most games are heavily dependent on what you decided before you even deployed your first unit. Makes the actual game part easy to forget, and I think some posters actually like the theory discussion more than the actual game itself. To each their own, and all that.

I should point out that one of the more competitive armies out there at the moment is Tau Triptide, which will fall on its face vs. Exorcists but will absolutely take Retributors' lunch money all day every day. And even if Rets are getting 2+ saves in cover and ignoring -2AP, good ROF weapons like Assault Cannons will still force them to take enough saves that they will start dying, while those weapons will not be terribly effective vs. Exorcists. So really, the right answer is play whichever one fits your list better. MM Rets will be better in some lists, but Exorcists will be better in others.

One thing I would do with Rets if I had any would be run them in a Repressor. Yes, I know, you can't scout them forward with Rets in them, but it still gives them some protection as well as mobility to help make their relatively short-ranged weapons a credible threat without the need to pay 2CP each time you fire them (and that only works on one unit).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
good ROF weapons like Assault Cannons will still force them to take enough saves that they will start dying, while those weapons will not be terribly effective vs. Exorcists.

It will take roughly 90 BS3, S6 shots to begin to chew into the multi meltas in a 10 man ret unit standing in cover, or around 25 to cause the first melta casualty in a 5 man unit. If you really want to maximize firepower and make unappealing targets, a 5 man unit with one multimelta and 2 ammo cherubs is 82 points and are returning fire with 3 shots on that first turn, which would take 60 assault cannon rounds to completely wipe out in order to reduce their shooitng at all..


how many assault cannons do you see across the table that it becomes a realistic threat.

So after a few practice games, I think we actually have one of our worst matchups against necrons. Which is weird.

They:

Tend to be toughness 5+ on most of their "competitive" units, which is an awkward toughness level to take out with our guns.

Have access to a lot of high rend, lowish strength shooting which is perfect for killing battle sisters(though Valorous still snubs them pretty good).

Doomsday Arks and their other anti-tank weapons don't care about the Exorcist's T8.

Reanimation protocols can be a bitch because we tend to have most of our damage on a handful of units and it's very easy to leave stuff alive by accident.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.

I will say that if they try the flyer necron thing, either MM rets or Exorcists will boop them out of the sky instantly though.


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Lemondish wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.

Very few actually have the models to do this. They're mostly putting thoughts to paper.

Or we just proxy stuff. It's not that hard. The only thing you really can't proxy is the battle sanctum and that's only because the shape of a terrain piece is massively important to how it actually functions.


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tneva82 wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.

okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.

I'll take that

Gee. So you take the units which are not in meta now. Castellan's haven't been seen in long time in good lists. Volcano cannons even less.

I'm talking about the CURRENT META. You know the one that's being played right now. Not 1+ year old meta. That's old news. Sister codex did not even exists then. If you play against old meta you will lose as you will bring wrong tools.

You going to bring volcano cannons, lascannons etc when meta is bring 300 T3 TW1 6+ save models? Sounds like it.


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 Grundz wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.

4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.

Can stay alive better 1+ year old against meta

Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.

Plassma: Retribution 0.69 kill per hit, exorcist 0.555 while having more wounds per point. Geeeeeeee! Wonderful. Oh and exorcist will be facing less plasma to begin with as you can be out of range. You know what plasma range tends to be? 24". What else is 24"? Multi-melta. What's exorcist? 48". Indeed that 24" will mean that unless you are running shroud order you aren't even quaranteed to shoot first turn except without 2CP stratagem for ONE unit. And if your ranged AT is all in one unit then you are in trouble.

And yes lascannons etc exists but in lesser numbers because most targets they face are stuff where lascannons suck. Invulnerable saves means high AP and low ROF just SUCKS. MD can be used nicely to block occasional one.

The 1MD thing is not true. Don't care what anyone says the actual truth of the matter is that no one knows for sure until GW actually put out a FAQ. It could absolutely go either way. We might be able so substitute all of the dice of a roll. We might not.

The current meta is mostly IH and RG/IF armies (Leviathan/SkySpam vs Assault Centurion+TFireCannons) and weird skew lists that can beat them.

Exorcists are great against RG/IF armies because they tend to stick around AP-2 for most of their shooting so even the IF bonus to vehicles won't matter if you're Valorous Heart. You'll also be returning nasty volleys as you can wipe an entire AC squad off the board or a Tfire cannon pretty consistently.

Against IH VH Exorcists can kill everything but the Leviathan relatively easily, though they definitely do not do well against the return volley.

As for the skew lists, sisters do okay against hordes due to how cheap our infantry are and how many stormbolters are usually kicking around. Eldar flyer lists are a joke for VH. They can barely hurt exorcists and an exorcist will bop a -3 flyer 90% of the time.

Retributors cover you against other armies like Necrons, knights, Tau, ETC that can kill Exorcists relatively easily but can barely touch a 2+ save immune to -2 large infantry unit in cover. They also work better with OoML and Argent Shroud armies.

Both are fine. I take 2 exorcists and a 10 girl squad of MM rets in my VH brigades most of the time.

Exorcist I love because they're basically a guaranteed kill on anything they shoot at between their reroll shots strat and a good MD, Rets I like because they dig in like ticks and benefit a lot from infantry buffs such as inquisitors or hospitallers.




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 lash92 wrote:
I have to agree with you on many points Rhynner.
Finally had some games too. Played VH brigade with an BR vanguard.

BR Canonesse:
She is absolutely hilarious for her 45 points.


Celestine:
You really don't take her for her dmg. The 4++ to our jump pack girls is huge the right match up.
Also she is a single model on a small 32mm base. So you can use here to fly forward 18" with a MD and charge 2d6 (possible high number again with MD) to tie something up.
Also our two other main HQs namely Missionary and Canonesse have diminishing returns so another option is nice.

Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution



Other observations I made during my games:

We are much more CP starved than MD. I definitely was too conservative with the latter.

Our army likes to be close together, so avoid splitting up as far as the mission and your opponent allows.

Disagree with the bolded part. Eldar lists, at least currently, suck at dealing with T8 because they went from being geared toward knights to being geared towards marines. CHE, Hemlockes, etc have seriously trouble dealing with Exorcists faster than the exorcist deals with them. Even if they do get a good volley off, they have relatively few anti-tank shots so it's not out of the question to just MD yourself to safety.

Dark Eldar are a different story, but CWE hate seeing exorcists in most lists now,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lash92 wrote:
It´s not like we dont have high strength high AP shots in the meta atm:
- Ironhand character dread + chaplain dreads with twin las.
- Eldar Flyer
- Tau Fusion
- Other Sisters player with exorcists

It would be funny to run them against tripple riptide tau though.



Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!

Sorry for so many posts in a row but I'm catching up.

Retributors do degrade. The first 4 wounds cost bolter shots, the fifth costs +1 leadership, the sixth costs their extra AoF, 7-9 reduce melta shots by one.

ERJAK wrote:
So after a few practice games, I think we actually have one of our worst matchups against necrons. Which is weird.

They:

Tend to be toughness 5+ on most of their "competitive" units, which is an awkward toughness level to take out with our guns.

Have access to a lot of high rend, lowish strength shooting which is perfect for killing battle sisters(though Valorous still snubs them pretty good).

Doomsday Arks and their other anti-tank weapons don't care about the Exorcist's T8.

Reanimation protocols can be a bitch because we tend to have most of our damage on a handful of units and it's very easy to leave stuff alive by accident.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.

I will say that if they try the flyer necron thing, either MM rets or Exorcists will boop them out of the sky instantly though.

I think mortifies or repentia are our answer to necron vehicles and other units in part. high volume of shots from double HB tear into their troops and buzzblades or flails will tear through QS and even repentia will be doing wounds on 4+ because necron vehicles are T6. set damage of 2 means QS only works 16% of the time and with just high volume of attacks it won't be enough. plus it does the biggest thing, ties them up in combat forcing DDark to fallback cripples its damage and range output by low power mode and accuracy because its heavy.

with the point changes to necrons i see H. destroyer list poping up more in the future

Not sure what direction to go with sisters, I've been playing marines alot recently and my tactic is usually to sit back a bit and let the enemy have it with massive firepower before walking up the board and claiming objectives.
However I lost 2 games at a tournament yesterday on objectives despite tabling both of them. Because of that I'm thinking of a more mobile force for the sisters which can run up into objectives and hold them effectively. VH and AS are the obvious choices so far for me.

Pretty sure I'll be going with 3 X excorcists with a cannonness as the base of the list. I want a unit of Mortifiers as well to draw fire from the tanks, and if not dealt with mortifiers are pretty devastating in combat! Not sold on Zepharim and Seraphim tbh but Zeph seem more useful for my money.

ERJAK wrote:

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
.

On flip side sister melta negates QS partially which is good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lash92 wrote:

Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!

tneva82 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
.

On flip side sister melta negates QS partially which is good.

do you chose a melta dice after the QS roll?

Here are some thoughts after another game:

- Argent Shroud are still pretty good. I want to try Bloody Rose as well but my plastic Sisters aren't up to the task of existing yet.

- Retributors are awesome. 2x MM and 1x HF rets do loads of damage to all sorts of targets.

- We have lots of gun. LOTS of gun, at least in a foot horde.

I played a narrative game (well, matched play with some houserules) against some Nurgle daemons - Death Guard and Daemons. One Slaanesh lady was in the Daemons detachment (which broke loci but whatever). It was essentially matched play: rule of 3, one stratagem of any one kind per phase, etc. Only allowed thing was repeated daemon summoning.

I killed a summoned Keeper, 30 summoned Daemonettes, and a summoned Daemon Prince. While I did this, I also killed:

1) The actual warlord daemon prince
2) the enemy Malignant Plaguecaster
3) A squad of Plague Marines.

My opponent was astonished at the level of firepower the list could spew under 12". He gave up Turn 3 after most of his characters were dead and there was a 10-1 advantage in victory points (we were playing maelstrom, which Argent Shroud are fantastic in, especially against slow nurgle).

What are people using their middling MD on? Like 3-4s? I feel like I should be using them for whatever like exorcist wound rolls but then my brain is like "then you're only rolling 3 dice for wounds and you'll get less wounds" cause my brain is an irrational donkey-cave.

 Sim-Life wrote:
What are people using their middling MD on? Like 3-4s? I feel like I should be using them for whatever like exorcist wound rolls but then my brain is like "then you're only rolling 3 dice for wounds and you'll get less wounds" cause my brain is an irrational donkey-cave.

I've used mine for forcing needed armor saves and wound rolls for like point blank meltas. I try to use them in phases where I don't think I will need the big damage hits or I have a simulacrum to not worry about stepping on the act of faith. Also, guaranteeing the destruction of things lurking with 3-4 wounds.

I often throw mine into stratagems like Moment of Grace or Divine Intervention.

You can turn like a 3 into a 6 by throwing 3 Miracle Dice away, if you're trying to hit on overwatch for example. A 5+ costs 1.

I just received a Celestine model and I've been looking at the geminae with my Ebon Chalice detachment. Getting to ignore the MWs on a 5+ would seem to help run those models or even just use a MD if it means keeping it alive for another unit to shoot her. But then again the use of a 5 on surviving vs say damage or a invuln save still makes it seem meh. I think I'll try it out and see how much fire it soaks vs my meta of loyal marines and BL CSM.

 mrwhoop wrote:
I just received a Celestine model and I've been looking at the geminae with my Ebon Chalice detachment. Getting to ignore the MWs on a 5+ would seem to help run those models or even just use a MD if it means keeping it alive for another unit to shoot her. But then again the use of a 5 on surviving vs say damage or a invuln save still makes it seem meh. I think I'll try it out and see how much fire it soaks vs my meta of loyal marines and BL CSM.

How you gonna do that when they don't get <ORDER> and can't benefit from convictions? Also, can't use MD on FNPs because they're not techinically saves.

The geminae are gak, unforunately. I wouldn't even assemble them.

At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.

Anyone else think it's kinda weird that the unit Triumph has the most synergy with is the Mortifiers? In that regard, here's my gimmick Morty List.

Canoness [3 PL, 54pts] Selections: Boltgun, Power sword, Rod of Office
Celestine [8 PL, 160pts] Selections: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
Triumph of Saint Katherine [9 PL, 185pts]
Troops
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum
Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Elites
Dialogus [2 PL, 35pts]
Hospitaller [2 PL, 35pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts] Selections: Tale of the Stoic
Zephyrim Squad [5 PL, 85pts]
4x Zephyrim Selections: 4x Power sword
Zephyrim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Power sword
Fast Attack
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 83pts]
2x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 83pts]
2x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
Mortifiers [9 PL, 174pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers [12 PL, 230pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers [12 PL, 230pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades


Argent Shroud on the support units to keep the pressure on, Minimum Zephyrim Squad for the reroll 1s to wound strat, brigade for all the oodles of CP you'll need, Celestine to give the Morties an invul. Don't worry too much about relics. The only big what ifs are whether you should bring litanies or a defensive relic and if the points you spend on the third anchorite might be more useful spent on the zephyrim banner.

Should end up with the mortifiers hitting on 2s wounding on 3s rerolling ones against ideal targets.

I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).

On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).

On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.

Celestine's +1 to SoF aura is infantry only but I'm fairly sure(codex isn't in front of me but pretty sure) that her 'give an invul to Ministorum/Militarum units' aura works on everything.

Mortys are in general better for one very specific reason: They have the Adepta Sororitas Keyword. Being faster and having heavy bolters is extremely helpful to be sure, but that keyword is a HUGE boon for them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).

On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.

Their slightly better durability doesn't amount to much and the Adepta Sororitas keyword and improved speed make Mortifiersa more popular choice at the moment. (And shooting heavy flamers in melee)

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).

On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.

P engines being the same cost as HB morts kinda hurts because like you said morts are faster by 2+d6 since they can advance and shoot meaning they are attacking something turn 1 and even if they go into something melee wise that will wipe the floor with them they each have a 50% chance for d3 mortal wounds to each unit near them. P. engines are slightly tougher but i think the anchorite giving them a 3+ is better than a 5+ FNP on AP -2 or -1

its more killy vs more survival and currently the game favors more killy.