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tneva82 wrote: I would rank valorous heart and argent shroud as top ones with bloody rose vanquard for some chop chop h2h units as basic go to but that\s my initial theory hammering.
I am using Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud. I am undefeated using that combination against a very wide range of armies and Generals. I am pretty pleased with the results event though here again, i am benefitting somewhat less from my Argent Shroud Dominion than i originally invisioned because again, i am choosing to go second so often.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
I did a bunch of math trying to figure out what kind of melee units perform well against what kind of targets, and how useful the different buffing characters are. It's a fair bit of barely structured text so I put it in a spoiler.
TL;DR If you want to do a lot of damage in melee play Bloody Rose. Bring the Bloody Canoness, Repentia and a priest in a rhino. Zephyrim are also useful.
If you want some melee in a detachment that is not Bloody Rose, bring Arco-Flagellants and a priest in a rhino.
Spoiler:
The baseline unit is 8 sisters repentia. Because this leaves room for two characters in the rhino. Adding a ninth repentia increases damage by 12,5%.
8x sisters repentia, bloody rose. 24 attacks -> 18 hits.
Attacking Guardsmen: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead guards
Attacking primaris marines: 12 wounds -> 12 through saves -> 12 dead primaris
With strat: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead primaris (+25% damage)
Attacking custodes: 12 wounds -> 6 through saves -> 3 dead custodes
with strat: 15 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> almost 4 dead custodes (+33% damage)
Attacking Harlequins: 15 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> 7 dead harlequins
Wtih strat: no improvement
Attacking Leman Russ/knight: 6 wounds -> 6 through saves -> 12 damage
with strat: 9 wounds -> 9 through saves -> 18 damage (+50% damage)
With priest: 32 attacks. That's a flat +33% damage.
With Repentia Superior (reroll 1s to wound). That's a flat 17% increase in damage.
Attacking primaris marines: 12 wounds + 2 from reroll. 17% increase
With strat: 15 wounds + 2,5 from reroll. 17% increase
Attacking Leman russ/knight: 6 wounds + 1 from reroll. 17% increase
Canoness reroll 1s to hit only matter from round 2 and forward.
Imagifier, +1 Strength
Attacking Guardsmen: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead guards. (No improvement)
Attacking Primaris: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead primaris (+25% damage)
With strat: no further bonus
Attacking Leman russ/knight: 9 wounds -> 9 through saves -> 18 damage (+50% damage
with strat: 12 wounds -> 12 through saves -> 24 damage (+100% damage)
***
8x Arco-flagellants (including 1 Endurant). 17xd3 attacks -> 34 attacks -> 25,5 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: 17 wounds -> 14 through saves -> 14 dead guards
Attacking primaris marines: 17 wounds -> 8,5 through saves -> 4 dead primaris
Attacking Custodes (2+/4++): 13 wounds -> 4 through saves -> 1 dead custodes
Attacking harlequins: 17 wounds -> 8,5 through saves -> 8 dead harlequins
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: 8,5 wounds -> 4 through saves -> 4 damage
With strat: A flat +50% damage.
With priest: A flat +47% damage
Priest multiplies with strat! for a total of 1,50x1,47 = 2,205 -> ~120% increase in damage.
***
8 Arco-flagellants or Repentia + 1 rhino is a total of 171 points (you are usually going to want to put one or two buffing character there as well)
For about the same amount of points you can get a full squad of 10 Zephyrim.
10 Zephyrim (including 1 superior), Bloody Rose. 31 attacks -> ~20,7 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: 15,5 wounds -> 15,5 through saves -> 15,5 dead guardsmen
with strat: 18,4 wounds -> 18,4 through saves -> 18,4 dead guardsmen (+ ~19% damage)
Attacking Primaris: 11,5 wounds -> 11,5 through saves -> nearly 6 dead primaris.
with strat: 15,5 wounds -> 15,5 through saves -> nearly 8 dead primaris (+ ~35% damage)
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: 6,35 wounds -> 6,35 through saves -> about 6 damage.
with strat: 11,5 wounds -> 11,5 through saves -> 11,5 damage
Bonus: Can attack a hemlock or other pesky flyer with plenty of minus to hit with shooting.
Bonus: Have armour and decent invul saves. Can move around on their own.
Zephyrim are hard to keep buffing characters close to without gimping their movement. But if possible:
Priest: + ~30% damage
Imagifier: does a lot of difference against T 3,4,6 and 7
Celestine/Indomitable Belief: gives 4++
Canoness: about +17% damage from reroll 1's
***
Bloody canoness (Bloody Rose, with Beneficence and Righteous Rage): 8 attacks -> ~7,8 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: ~7 wounds -> 7 through saves -> 7 dead guardsmen
With strat: ~7,5 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> 7,5 dead guardsmen
Attacking Primaris: 5,9 wounds -> 4,8 through saves -> 4,8 dead primaris
with strat: ~7 wounds -> ~6,8 through saves -> 6,8 dead primaris
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: ~2,4 wounds -> ~2 through saves -> 4 damage
with strat: ~5 wounds -> ~4 through saves -> 8 damage
A priest only buffs her by about 12% damage.
An Imagifier with +1 Strength do a lot of difference against T4,5, 8 and 9.
***
Irate canoness (Bloody rose with Blade of Admonition and Blazing Ire): 6 attacks -> 5,8 hits
Attacking Primaris: 3,9 wounds -> 3,9 through saves -> ~4 dead primaris
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: ~2 wounds -> 2 through saves -> 6 damage
With strat: ~3 wounds -> 3 through saves -> 9 damage
A priest buffs her by about 17% damage.
An imagifier with +1 Strength do a lot of difference against T3, 5, 6 and 10.
Really enjoying thinking up what the army can do. Ordered 2 BSS and some retributors for Saturday to go along with my sister's box that I already had. Think I'm going to VH to start with plenty of squads all with bolters and storm bolters. Retributors I am a bit torn between 4 HB for cheap dakka or 4 multi melta for pricey anti tank!
The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I think they'd slot well into just about any sisters list. Sisters tend to be light on plasma, not really having that "heavy infantry cracker" they'd be a good subsitute for dominions in a few lists.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Are Dominion Squads with 4 Meltas + Combi riding in a Repressor any good anymore? I know they can't scout the Repressors forward anymore, but it's still a nice box to protect your squishy girls while they shoot their meltas out of it and it gives a list some mobile firepower.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
I think Dominions are going to be best with storm bolters. Exorcists and Retributors are doing that STR 8 showering now. I would take those meltaguns and spread them out along your basic troops or something of that nature.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I tried it at a 1,000 pts and it worked well. I actually ran a batallion of 3 squads, ccs, and primes.
They fill a key gap of sisters well and they're a cool thematic choice. A batallion of stormtroopers will probably be a great addition to sisters if you already have the models. They do a lot of stuff sisters can't, and are a good backup for seraphim and zephyrim dropping in. Not sure if they'll top tournaments but it doesn't really handicap you any. Plus you get the Stormtroopers doctrine for bonus shots in a pure detachment.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
Unless you're making use of their hymns with a Bloody Rose Vanguard, Missionaries only real purpose is to fill HQ slots that need it if you are following the Ro3 and have 3x Canoness already.
I actually don't hate the idea of Argent Shroud flamers (or flamers generally, but plenty of people do) alternatively, it shouldn't be hard to trim and change.
Seraphim are the better VH option, though I would definitely take a VH Dominion squad for the Blessed Bolts. (Basically, there's no write or wrong answer. Mix them up how you like to use them)
There's a case to be made for larger squads of Repentia and Arcos and some may make one for ablative wounds to Rets and Pen. Engine/Mortifier, but Sisters are traditionally, universally MSU
Celestians are cool. You've probably got enough different Elites to fill the slots without having what is largely more of the same, but you're not just actively hindering yourself by taking a squad of them
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dan2026 wrote: Am I right in thinking it's worth giving Retributors some extra bodies in the squad to soak damage away from the big guns?
Maybe even a full squad of 10.
It's not worthwhile generally. but if you have a gameplan with them a few extra bodies may help. Probably not 10 though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 04:56:59
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
I'm no expert as I've hardly played with Sisters, but from what I've seen and heard and my own limited experiences, I'll give a noob's opinion:
1) I don't think it's worth taking 3 different Orders, as you won't be able to take enough in each one to get the most from it. Valorous Heart is the go-to for most things, with Bloody Rose for units like Repentia, Zephyrim, and possibly Seraphim. The durability from VH is probably better than the mobility from AS, but then if you build around the mobility it could probably work well.
2) Missionaries are decent but only if you want to run melee options like Repentia or Arco-flagellants. Pretty much nothing else in the Sisters dex wants to be in combat other than Zephyrim, and they will outrun a Missionary usually, or deep strike away from him.
3) I'm not sure but what they could be an okay option as a counter-charge type unit, like something that sits in the backfield daring the opponent to try to invade. Storm Bolters are cheaper and do the job just as well usually though.
4) Dominions are probably hindered least, although Seraphim with Inferno Pistols don't care about being Bloody Rose, so take those in VH.
5) Retributors are probably good to bring in full units, as you want the extra bodies as ablative wounds before you start losing guns. Some people have been having success with full units of Battle Sisters too, and a Rhino full of Repentia or Arco-flagellants can be really funny with a Missionary or Preacher.
6) Celestians have one niche use and that is as a counter-sniper unit to keep your buff characters (Canonesses, Imagifiers) alive. Too bad their bodyguard rule is nowhere near as good as Tau Shield Drones or Ork Gretchin using the Grot Shields strat. Personally I think the Elites slot is best used by Imagifiers or Hospitallers, or if in a Bloody Rose detachment, Zephyrim and Repentia.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I've run similar combos in recent editions and they're solid. I haven't looked at their points lately, but they usually deliver. I haven't considered that vs. giving up Rites, but five dudes pack a lot of plasma, DS into tiny spaces, get some versatility from Orders, and aren't a huge points sink. I was running 1 Tempestor in the rear with some volley guns as a CP farm and objective camper and DSing the other Tempestor with a pair of minmaxed plasma squads. This feels like a CP hungry Codex, so I suspect you could do a lot worse.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
Well for starter you want more scions so you can have 3 troop slots. As is you have patrol. You don't want to pay detachment and sacred rites for 0 cp.
You also want them to field plasma to hurt 2+ w2 models which are what sisters bang head against
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 09:50:44
Just a heads-up, I opened a "Plastic Sisters Hobby Thread" in the P&M forum... as much as I loved seeing everyone's color schemes a few pages back, it might help us preserve this space for tactical discussion. We're currently discussing casting multi-melta barrels with putty and resin...
The tactical thing I do want to bring up is crafting a deck of Tactical Objectives for the new CA 2019 "Schemes of War" missions. You need a minimum of 18 cards in your deck, five in your hand, and three in play on most turns, and the missions have mostly to do with manipulating your cards or your opponent's... so clearly inspired by tournament formats where players choose objectives that favor their army build.
So what would you take out of our current deck? What would your core selection for any game be, and what would you put into a sidebar that depended on which Order you're playing or which opponent you're facing? I'd love to see a list of "no matter what" and "if... then" selections. I'll probably play my first Schemes of War scenario this weekend with what looks like may be a common Sororitas build: Valorous Heart anvil + Bloody Rose hammer, so that's my perspective.
Here's the Sisters library:
Spoiler:
11 - Slay the Heretic (kill a Character with a Ministorum unit)
12 - Armor of Contempt (pass a SoF or DtW test)
13 - Reclaim the Relic (control a random objective at the end of turn)
14 - Trust in the Emperor (gain 3 or 6 Miracle Dice this turn)
15 - The Blood of Martyrs (1 if a Sororitas unit is destroyed, 3 if a Character)
16 - Leap of Faith (perform Acts of Faith: 1 for 1, d3 for 3, d3+3 for 6)
21-26 - Secure Objectives 1-6 (control objective marker X at end of turn)
31-36 - Defend Objectives 1-6 (control an objective for two consecutive turns)
41 - Advance (leave your DZ)
42 - Behind Enemy Lines (enter enemy DZ)
43 - Hold the Line (stay in your DZ)
44 - Mission Critical Objective (go claim or take away something specific)
45 - Supremacy (control any 3)
46 - Domination (control all)
51 - Overwhelming Firepower (kill things in Shooting phase)
52 - Blood and Guts (kill things in Fight phase)
53 - No Prisoners (destroy enemy units, preferably lots)
54 - Area Denial (clear out the center of the board)
55 - Psychological Warfare (force failed Morale tests)
56 - Master the Warp (manifest/deny, preferably lots)
61 - Kingslayer (extra for killing Warlord)
62 - Witch Hunter (kill a psyker)
63 - Scour the Skies (kill a flier)
64 - Assassinate (kill Characters, preferably lots)
65 - Big Game Hunter (kill big things)
66 - Priority Orders Received (go get a specific objectives with your Warlord)
Don't recall top of my heaa but mine has all secure and defend, supremacy, 14-16, 43, 51, 53, 54 . 20 cards so could be that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: I'm putting celestians in my Bloody Rose army.
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
Been thinking bloody rose celestians myself as well. 41 attacks at s4 -1 doesn't seem that bad. Plus bolters and meltagun or two
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 13:04:05
So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Spoletta wrote: I'm putting celestians in my Bloody Rose army.
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
Been thinking bloody rose celestians myself as well. 41 attacks at s4 -1 doesn't seem that bad. Plus bolters and meltagun or two
I think with BR and the aura buffs you'll almost always have, the extra point you pay per model is still a great deal. The only strike against them is that they don't help you fill six Troops and that there are cheaper Elites you'll also want, so they might squeeze your Brigade a bit. I'll run them this week in a double Battlion as 7x with PP/Chainsword plus Canoness, Preacher, and Imagifier in a Rhino to go anchor the bulk of my BR Sisters midfield.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
The Shield of Faith buffs from Celestine and the warlord trait only apply to Infantry units, so you can't improve your tanks' Invul saves alas. The rest of it applies however, and ignoring AP -1 and -2 is pretty good in a Marine-heavy meta where a lot of anti-tank firepower is coming from high volumes of -2 shots.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
My Codex says Infantry units. Battlescribe is wrong (or at least incomplete).
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
My Codex says Infantry units. Battlescribe is wrong (or at least incomplete).
In my mind, given the sheer number of cards that are too situational, potentially binding you to poor decisions or outright impossible, all decks should probably run all the Secure (21-26) and Defend (31-36) cards. Even if there are more than 6 good cards remaining (which for some builds I'd say there certainly is), there's no point in not taking all 6 defend cards since you won't know which objectives are easy to hold until deployment is decided.
Cards I think are always good enough for the last 6, regardless of Order and pure army build: - Trust in the Emperor (14) - The Blood of Martyrs (15) - Leap of Faith (16) - Supremacy (43) - Overwhelming Firepower (51) - No Prisoners (53) - Area Denial (54)
Blood and Guts (52) I'd say is also a good include if you're running any Bloody Rose.
That's not to say you can't build a deck without Defend cards mind you. There's certainly enough average cards remaining (the ones involving killing characters or having killed the enemy warlord, having 1 or more units in the enemy deployement zone, if you have a solo Inquisitor potentially the 'manifest a psypower' one) that you could make a deck without them. I'm just not sure it'd be better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 13:39:58
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
I'm pretty much repeating what has been said but, I'll give my opinion:
1) Nope, I tend to run single Order. Easier on book keeping, allows me the freedom to bring the Sanctum detachment, and I find that doing something very well yields better results than doing a few things decently.
2) This is very difficult to answer. Canoness and Celestine will likely be your go-to for most situations. If you're running Arcos or Repentia, an argument can be made for buffing them via Missionaries. If you're just running them to save 10-20 points vs a Canoness, you're missing out on a lot of buffs that are definitely worth the points.
3) Niche uses. Miracle Dice cannot be used to replace number of shots rolls, which is sad faces. I've contemplated putting together a Dominion squad together with 4 Flamers + Combi-melta in an Immolator to have a mechanized squad that can threaten with Holy Trinity, but that is a unit that typically doesn't survive list building long enough to replace more practical options. You can also plop one into a battle sister squad for access to Holy Trinity, but I think a better config would be a meltagun + combi-flamer... but nothing saying you couldn't make it a combi-melta + flamer, there's cons and perks both ways. I think I typically put one in my 10-girl BSS.
4) Seraphim, but not for the reasons you would think. VH likes to play a bit like IH: they like to huddle around their stronger buffs and leverage them as long as reasonable early game. VH is also likely going to enjoy tough infantry units like Retributors in cover blasting the opponent and frustrating the return fire. Dominions can scout forward and still tactically enjoy that protection, if necessary, but Dominions with Storm Bolters are going to be low-threat units that can optionally use Blessed Bolts when needed. Seraphim, however, almost require dedicated CP to use Deadly Descent. They frequently strike up the table at a harder target for the heart of the army to reach. They're also very dangerous and draw a lot of attention, and typically run a bit more expensive point wise. If you're running a BDE, I would bring one of each, just because there's no point not to... having them opens up more avenues of attack. Seraphim, however, will be more vulnerable and exposed, as the typical VH army will not be able to support them where they need to go. VH Rets are also very CP hungry, so beware that when planning where that CP is going to go before dedicating 1 or 2 to Deadly Descent.
5) If you're planning "full squads", buy Battle Sister boxes. They slot into any of the other units as boltgun bodies. The box also produces Dominions and Celestians. 2 boxes of Retributors and 1 box of battle sisters gives you 2 max squads of Retributors, if that's your fancy. I am personally looking at a full squad of MM Retributors, a 5 girl Ret squad with 2 MMs, and a min squad of HB Rets (maybe 1-2 extra bodies for lols).
6) I've brought them and they've just been a bit confused. I understand that my characters are of upmost importance and target snipers accordingly, while trying to keep my characters from being tragically exposed to the return fire. If you can eliminate the sniper threat, Celestians lose a lot of their value, because you should be protecting your characters otherwise with screens and positioning. I typically still side on bringing a min squad with Storm Bolters because I stack a lot of buffs on my Imagifier (making her a lovely target), and I'd rather toss the Celestian points than having my shield come tumbling down. Typically, I run a min squad of Celestians, Imagifier, and Hospitaller as my elites in my BDE. You could run 2x Imagifier and Hospitaller, as well, and avoid them all together. I tend to give my Imagifier a Warlord Trait and a Relic, though, so she has a bit more value for me.
Hopefully that made a bit of sense of what you were asking?
ZergSmasher wrote: Are Dominion Squads with 4 Meltas + Combi riding in a Repressor any good anymore? I know they can't scout the Repressors forward anymore, but it's still a nice box to protect your squishy girls while they shoot their meltas out of it and it gives a list some mobile firepower.
It's just too expensive, especially considering that the vehicle can't benefit from the 4++ any more. For the same price as a repressor you'd be well on your way to a second squad of dominions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
1) Yes, though in practice 2 Conviction Brigade Battalion tends to give better results.
2) Absolutely bring missionaries as slot fillers. Canonesses are great, but it's hard to argue against having a priest or two kicking around.
3) No, they suck. Heavy flamers are okay, regular flamers are gak.
4) Seraphim, though Dominions are still fine if you want to save points.
5) Valrous Heart benefit big squads, nothing else benefits non-melee large units.
6) Some people like them as sniper screens, I personally think they're gak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 20:57:11
1 pts for extra attack, WS, LD and bodyguard plus full rerolls doesn't seem that bad of a deal for celestians. Except being in elite. With priest around that's nice counter charge unit to have around. Especially on army that benefits a tons of it's characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 21:06:55
dan2026 wrote: Am I right in thinking it's worth giving Retributors some extra bodies in the squad to soak damage away from the big guns?
Maybe even a full squad of 10.
It's not worthwhile generally. but if you have a gameplan with them a few extra bodies may help. Probably not 10 though.
Why do you say its not worthwhile generally? Surely anything that can protect that 32point multi-melta is a good thing.
It's a question of whether or not it meaningfully protects those Multi-Melta and indeed if those Multi-Melta are worth the points in the first place.
A backfield of 4x VH Multi-Melta with access to a Hospitaller could be worth the extra bodies, but the unsupported 2x Multi-Melta with 2 Cherubs aren't going to survive the counterattack by having more wounds.
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
