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 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

@Tactics: Just having checked the Celestians again, I really, REALLY like them. Sure, you can't build a list around them, but whenever you got 3 or 6 BSS already and think "hm, I want another infantry squad" there is very little reason not to take them. Like seriously, for ONE point they get +1A, +1Ld, Re-rolls for ANY rolls to hit with an extremely easy to achieve trigger and which also synergizes really well with their extra attacks (11 S3 attacks become quite deadly when they get pushed to S4 by a saintly Imagifier and get to re-roll their 3+ to hit). And to boot they get the body guard rule when someone tries to murderize your warlord canoness or Imagifier with snipers. 5 of them with 2 Storm Bolters are 54 points, which is really tasty.
Can anyone actually good at numbers run the math on them vs Dominions with 4xSB pwetty please ? Sure, Dominions got Blessed Bolts, but only one squad benefits from it, so I would love to see if Celestians are the better pick for multiple more elite servo sisters.

Keeping things even with a Canoness aura and in double-tap range: 5 Doms with 4 SBs and 1 Bolter (re-rolling failed to-hit rolls of 1) would get 14 hits; 5 Celestians with 2 SBs and 3 Bolters (re-rolling all failed to-hits) would get about 12 hits on average (exact number is 12.444). So not quite as effective in shooting per point, but Celestians do have other benefits as you stated.
Just for lols-
Dominions with 4 SBs pay 4.14 pts per hit, while Celestians with 2 SBs pay 4.34 pts per hit.

Sorry, I meant maces, but for some reason it gets auto corrected.

Thanks for the tip on inferno pistols, that's really handy. I'm putting them on quite a lot of models.

Are we loving inferno pistols on multiple Sister Superiors? I'll leave a few with stock boltguns for backline security detail, but for my forward elements I might spread a few around. I've gotten good use out of the "thermal injector pistol" from The Reliquary on Shapeways. I have 4 stormbolters to dump, and those empty hands need something. Also, who's got a favorite third party chainsword that scales properly with our tiny feminine hands?

Spoletta wrote:
I want to equip my superiors with mails, but they don't come in the box. Any idea where to get some? Inferno pistols too.

Retributors have maul. Pistols you can get from seraphim box when they come. Or wargame exclusives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Thinking about it, an Ebon Chalice Heavy Flamer Retributor unit with Heavy Flamers, 2 Cherubs and a combi-melta canoness for Holy Trinity will downright murder almost anything for 3 CP. 36 guaranteed auto-hit shots with S5 AP-1 and +1 to wound will delete a lot of things that aren't knights (though it would be interesting how many wounds that would do on a knight, if anyone is willing to run the math). .

36 hits, wound on 4+, save on same, easy. 9 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
Are we loving inferno pistols on multiple Sister Superiors? I'll leave a few with stock boltguns for backline security detail, but for my forward elements I might spread a few around. I've gotten good use out of the "thermal injector pistol" from The Reliquary on Shapeways. I have 4 stormbolters to dump, and those empty hands need something. Also, who's got a favorite third party chainsword that scales properly with our tiny feminine hands?

I went with combi meltas. For one available and range is better. Makes charging squads lot riskier for enemy with anything with 3-4 wounds if i have 6 md as i can get quaranteed hit. Characters with 5-6 wounds have to keep in mind if i hit(19% odds near canoness) i have quaranteed kill if i get past save. Pistol you are less likely be able to overwatch as enemy can start charge 6.1" away.

I've got a few games in my pocket now [Ha. Having pockets. That's a good one. ], running a moderate selection of the stuff available:

The loss of toughness & wounds for the penitent engine is definitely felt, these things aren't dreadnoughts anymore. That said, they are very cheap and definitely lethal for their cost with the flails. I've tried out both Mortifiers [Anchorite] & Pengines, and I would say that currently, I like the classic random guy from the street more than the captured Chaos Battle Sister bolted to the crucifix-o-tron. Pengines hit better than the Mortifiers, and are tougher than base Mortifiers but more fragile than the Anchorite. All are cheap as hell, but a Mortifier with HB's is the same as a Pengine with mandatory Heavy Flamers, so you can't save anything by choosing the Mortifier and sticking with cheaper weapons.

I may be in the minority, but I vastly preferred the old Exorcist to the new one. I've tried out 2 AT & 1 Conflagration Rockets, 2 AT, and 3 AT in different lists. The conflagration rockets do work, but I'm not sold on them over the classic tank destroyer Exorcist role, especially since I highly prize the medium-range AT capability of the Exorcist and feel the opportunity cost of switching one. Onto the AT launcher weapon, it feels much less capable for it's cost, and since it's 3 dice rolled instead of 1, if I'm not prescient enough to know which of the three to hit with Devastating Refrain, one of the launchers rolling poorly is much harder to fix. I never had problems with 3 1d6 launchers, since a CP could fix that die roll when one went wrong and they were cheap, but I've mad major issues with simply not feeling like they're lifting as much weight as they were. In addition, all that extra cost is choking, since I can't have as many units and other upgrades.

Seraphim are neat. I still like them with melta pistols, either in big squads or in small squads. Being capped to 4++ instead of 3++ is kind of sad though. I've used them in deep strike now, since their stratagem works on Inferno Pistols now, but just flying up the board is a solid option. I think they're definitely better than and will pick them first over....

Dominions, which I do not like anymore. Dominions were, in my opinion, one of the signature units of Sisters as fast Mech Infantry, and being unable to scout [or outflank, how much fun it was to outflank a tank full of meltaguns with multimeltas behind a Knight right up close...] their tanks has really just made them expensive Battle Sisters. Melta Doms are out of my lists now, in favor of Seraphim. SB doms might come back for Blessed Bolts, but they'll need padding to stay alive.

Zephyrim are something that I just haven't figured out. I'd be happy with Power Axes on them, but Power Swords just doesn't feel worthwhile.

Repentia are a unit that has consistently been making me happy. Hit things they die, up to and including Imperial Knights. Woo. The only catch is not getting killed by overwatch since they're super fragile. I'm debating also leaving behind the Mistress, since they get their re-rolls natively now and the re-roll to wound isn't as valuable. I'll come back to the overwatch problem.

Canonesses are killer, though not having jetpacks is still a sad. I've been running 1 with Beneficence most of the time and 1 to babysit the Exorcists at least. I've run my third with varying loadouts and relics and warlord traits for different effects, and I've been pretty happy with all of them, though Admonition+Blazing Ire is redundant with Benificence+Righteous Rage. I did like the Valorous Heart one with the Casket of Peanance and Shield of Faith boositng, and I also like the Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, though part of that latter one is just because the relic is cool sounding and having a tough character isn't really a super awesome relic useage.

Imagifiers are awesome. I need more.

Battle Sister Squads I've been toying around with. I've run them barebones for efficiency, and I've run them with 2x Melta and 2x Storm Bolter. I've use one section with 2x Flamer. I think that right now BSS w/ 2x Melta is definitely doing better for me than Doms with 4x Melta. BSS with 2x Storm Bolters were basically the same as barebones. 2x Flamer does actually irritate my enemy, but seems niche to armies that might be threatened by flamers. Advancing a lot is something I've been doing with both the flamer and melta units, so I haven't used Argent Shroud, but I'm considering it.

Immolators are Immolators. I forget they have a heavy bolter to fire, and have tried using them for the BSS a few times, but have come to the conclusion that BSS should walk and Immolators are basically guns tanks. I use Rhinos for carrying stuff. Given that they've found more use to me as roving gun tanks, going for the flame gun is something I'd probably prefer, but I'm also just not bringing them. I've considered going 1 Rhino + 1 Immolator, but I'm not comfortable putting characters in the Immolator without padding infantry for when it blows up.



That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.

The Sacred Rites are also in the category of "cool in theory, but at the bat not really doing work". I've used Death to the False Everything in the mono lists I've used. That said, with the exception of the +3 Deny the Witch one, I'm not sold on them being more effective than a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun knocking down overwatch and having cheap Guardsmen for CP or Space Marines for board control. At the end of the day, having other IMPERIAL troops in your army is to me worth more than exploding 6's in melee or whatever other Rites there are.

I've used Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart doctrines. Though my models are painted silver, red, and white, I've been Bloody Rose all through the beta codex and was known by my friends for being assault-happy before that was a thing so continuing to use Bloody Rose was the obvious default choice for me. I don't like +1AP as much as +1S, that's the short, but I do like the +1 to wound in melee stratagem and really, really like Beneficence. I used Valorous Heart against a Necron player and felt really good too, especially with my stickbearer. I'm looking forward to trying to use Valorous Heart more against Space Marines maybe. I think Valorous Heart is probably the best Order, but I'm considering Argent Shroud since I've been doing so much Advancing.



The lists I've used have been 2 Battalions Mono, 2 Battalions + 1 IG Battalion, and 1 Brigade + 1 IG Battalion.

Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.

tneva82 wrote:
Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.

There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.

There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.


With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.

I have been running my lists with 1 Geminae Superia but not Celestine. Anyone else doing this?

To me there are several benefits: I run a brigade so 20 points to fill an Elite slot is nice (if run with Celestine it won’t use the slot); it’s got the CHARACTER keyword with 2W, 3A using a power sword, and 12” movement - great for snatching an objective or just being a nuisance; and best of all, when she dies she gives up a MD.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.

I think the issue with Miracle Dice is you have to get into a different mindset than you are used to using. Think of it as a preemptive Command Re-roll. Ask yourself the question: "Is there a roll I really don't want to fail this phase?"

If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).

If you end the game with a lot of Miracle Dice, either you had an easy or you failed to utilize resources you had. I assume you don't allow yourself to end a game with lost of CP. Take the same amount of care to ensure the only Miracle Dice you end the game with are the ones you gained late in the game (or 1 and 2's that can't to anything useful because you aren't making Morale rolls).

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've got a few games in my pocket now [Ha. Having pockets. That's a good one. ], running a moderate selection of the stuff available:

Spoiler:

The loss of toughness & wounds for the penitent engine is definitely felt, these things aren't dreadnoughts anymore. That said, they are very cheap and definitely lethal for their cost with the flails. I've tried out both Mortifiers [Anchorite] & Pengines, and I would say that currently, I like the classic random guy from the street more than the captured Chaos Battle Sister bolted to the crucifix-o-tron. Pengines hit better than the Mortifiers, and are tougher than base Mortifiers but more fragile than the Anchorite. All are cheap as hell, but a Mortifier with HB's is the same as a Pengine with mandatory Heavy Flamers, so you can't save anything by choosing the Mortifier and sticking with cheaper weapons.

I may be in the minority, but I vastly preferred the old Exorcist to the new one. I've tried out 2 AT & 1 Conflagration Rockets, 2 AT, and 3 AT in different lists. The conflagration rockets do work, but I'm not sold on them over the classic tank destroyer Exorcist role, especially since I highly prize the medium-range AT capability of the Exorcist and feel the opportunity cost of switching one. Onto the AT launcher weapon, it feels much less capable for it's cost, and since it's 3 dice rolled instead of 1, if I'm not prescient enough to know which of the three to hit with Devastating Refrain, one of the launchers rolling poorly is much harder to fix. I never had problems with 3 1d6 launchers, since a CP could fix that die roll when one went wrong and they were cheap, but I've mad major issues with simply not feeling like they're lifting as much weight as they were. In addition, all that extra cost is choking, since I can't have as many units and other upgrades.

Seraphim are neat. I still like them with melta pistols, either in big squads or in small squads. Being capped to 4++ instead of 3++ is kind of sad though. I've used them in deep strike now, since their stratagem works on Inferno Pistols now, but just flying up the board is a solid option. I think they're definitely better than and will pick them first over....

Dominions, which I do not like anymore. Dominions were, in my opinion, one of the signature units of Sisters as fast Mech Infantry, and being unable to scout [or outflank, how much fun it was to outflank a tank full of meltaguns with multimeltas behind a Knight right up close...] their tanks has really just made them expensive Battle Sisters. Melta Doms are out of my lists now, in favor of Seraphim. SB doms might come back for Blessed Bolts, but they'll need padding to stay alive.

Zephyrim are something that I just haven't figured out. I'd be happy with Power Axes on them, but Power Swords just doesn't feel worthwhile.

Repentia are a unit that has consistently been making me happy. Hit things they die, up to and including Imperial Knights. Woo. The only catch is not getting killed by overwatch since they're super fragile. I'm debating also leaving behind the Mistress, since they get their re-rolls natively now and the re-roll to wound isn't as valuable. I'll come back to the overwatch problem.

Canonesses are killer, though not having jetpacks is still a sad. I've been running 1 with Beneficence most of the time and 1 to babysit the Exorcists at least. I've run my third with varying loadouts and relics and warlord traits for different effects, and I've been pretty happy with all of them, though Admonition+Blazing Ire is redundant with Benificence+Righteous Rage. I did like the Valorous Heart one with the Casket of Peanance and Shield of Faith boositng, and I also like the Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, though part of that latter one is just because the relic is cool sounding and having a tough character isn't really a super awesome relic useage.

Imagifiers are awesome. I need more.

Battle Sister Squads I've been toying around with. I've run them barebones for efficiency, and I've run them with 2x Melta and 2x Storm Bolter. I've use one section with 2x Flamer. I think that right now BSS w/ 2x Melta is definitely doing better for me than Doms with 4x Melta. BSS with 2x Storm Bolters were basically the same as barebones. 2x Flamer does actually irritate my enemy, but seems niche to armies that might be threatened by flamers. Advancing a lot is something I've been doing with both the flamer and melta units, so I haven't used Argent Shroud, but I'm considering it.

Immolators are Immolators. I forget they have a heavy bolter to fire, and have tried using them for the BSS a few times, but have come to the conclusion that BSS should walk and Immolators are basically guns tanks. I use Rhinos for carrying stuff. Given that they've found more use to me as roving gun tanks, going for the flame gun is something I'd probably prefer, but I'm also just not bringing them. I've considered going 1 Rhino + 1 Immolator, but I'm not comfortable putting characters in the Immolator without padding infantry for when it blows up.



That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.

The Sacred Rites are also in the category of "cool in theory, but at the bat not really doing work". I've used Death to the False Everything in the mono lists I've used. That said, with the exception of the +3 Deny the Witch one, I'm not sold on them being more effective than a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun knocking down overwatch and having cheap Guardsmen for CP or Space Marines for board control. At the end of the day, having other IMPERIAL troops in your army is to me worth more than exploding 6's in melee or whatever other Rites there are.

I've used Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart doctrines. Though my models are painted silver, red, and white, I've been Bloody Rose all through the beta codex and was known by my friends for being assault-happy before that was a thing so continuing to use Bloody Rose was the obvious default choice for me. I don't like +1AP as much as +1S, that's the short, but I do like the +1 to wound in melee stratagem and really, really like Beneficence. I used Valorous Heart against a Necron player and felt really good too, especially with my stickbearer. I'm looking forward to trying to use Valorous Heart more against Space Marines maybe. I think Valorous Heart is probably the best Order, but I'm considering Argent Shroud since I've been doing so much Advancing.



The lists I've used have been 2 Battalions Mono, 2 Battalions + 1 IG Battalion, and 1 Brigade + 1 IG Battalion.

Thanks for the write up. Very informative!

About Zephyrim. I took 7 of them to a tournament this weekend. Given the right target they were awesome, that seems to mean T5 or less that relies on armour saves to stay alive, or anything with T3. If they could not find that kind of target they were good looking but a bit meh. They are imho a better companion for Celestine than the Geminae. That said I'm not sure if they will be a permanent part of my tournament army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.

Even the bad roll is 3x of 1d6's bad roll and happens almost as often as double 1 happens. In fact you have more chance of getting 1 or 2 shots with 1d6 rerolled than 3d3 getting 3 shots.

There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.

It's doing 71% more damage at 41% extra price with more reliability, less CP burnage and 50% higher max outout.

With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.

Even with reroll you are doing less shots average than with 3d3. You average about FOUR shots with reroll. And you burn CP. And you could still roll badly(higher chance than 3d3 rolling 3 shots...). And works only on one tank. Rolling low shots with 2 tanks out of 3 isn't anything new. I do that periodically with doomsday arks and then you have zero options short of cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).

This. don't focus on those 6 damage rolls. Meltagun vs vehicle is often 4+ to wound. Good spot for those 4's to use. Your canoness takes 4 wounds? with 2 wounds left? Reduce variance and use that 2 to pass your 2+(if you have the relic) save for one. It's not just about hail mary passes but also reducing variance.

Also look out for chances where FAILING can be tactically good Says guy who should have ensured he fails inv save vs lascannon to kill of canoness for d3 vp...stupid me

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.

There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.

There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.


With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.

I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...

I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap

Lammia wrote:
I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...

I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap

So 2d6 S8 -2 Dd3 rerolling 1's vs 3d3 S8 -3 Dd6. Plus 6++, acts of faith. I know which one I take. And it's not male one.

 alextroy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.

I think the issue with Miracle Dice is you have to get into a different mindset than you are used to using. Think of it as a preemptive Command Re-roll. Ask yourself the question: "Is there a roll I really don't want to fail this phase?"

If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).

If you end the game with a lot of Miracle Dice, either you had an easy or you failed to utilize resources you had. I assume you don't allow yourself to end a game with lost of CP. Take the same amount of care to ensure the only Miracle Dice you end the game with are the ones you gained late in the game (or 1 and 2's that can't to anything useful because you aren't making Morale rolls).

I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...

Lammia wrote:
I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...

Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game

One thing confuses me:

I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.

The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?

jivardi wrote:
One thing confuses me:

I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.

The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?

it's not a bolt gun, it's a plasma pistol.

jivardi wrote:
One thing confuses me:

I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.

The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?

Check the model. There's no boltgun in sight. That's illegality #1. For most tournaments WYSIWYG means upgrades(like the boltgun here) needs to be shown.

What's worse there's clearly a ranged gun model posses. And it's not boltgun. It's plasma pistol. And there's no way to get one for rod. If you switch bolt pistol&chainsword for bolt gun and power sword plus rod you don't have bolt pistol to replace to plasma pistol. And if you replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol you don't have bolt pistol and chainsword to replace to boltgu, power sword and rod.

Tiny annoyance for now. Hopefully FAQ fixes without fix being loadout becomes legends option.

Hmm, I'll take peeps words for it. I don't own the model just going by unboxing photos of painted model and sprue. Must be hidden in the folds of robe or something.

jivardi wrote:
Hmm, I'll take peeps words for it. I don't own the model just going by unboxing photos of painted model and sprue. Must be hidden in the folds of robe or something.

Left side, around half way of sword. See the barrel? That's the plasma pistol. More clearer from other angles.

Yes not that easy to see. Bigger issue for wysiwyg requirements is clear lack of bolter.

tneva82 wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...

Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game

Can't use MD on number of shots.

Lammia wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...

Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game

Can't use MD on number of shots.

I personally never have enough miracle dice. I use the Simulacrum a lot - there's always something I want to do with those squads - always something that benefits my game plan that guaranteeing is far more valuable to me than a chance that it fails. I'll start using Cherubs on all BSS squads once I add a Triumph to the back field to help add more Acts of Faith to the Exorcists - I'll want the early advance rolls and 4+ melta hits from the BSS so without the Cherubs I would be totally lacking the dice needed early game.

I really kind of want to try out Ebon Chalice or Sacred Rose given how much I love this mechanic lol

Having played Ebon Chalice I agree that having lots of dice can be great with their ability to toss two dice and make one of them a 6. Need a long charge but only have 6,2,1? Now it's a 12! Some beatstick character is charging your melta sisters? Toss that 3 and 4 for an Overwatching 6 and make them save or die.

 mrwhoop wrote:
Having played Ebon Chalice I agree that having lots of dice can be great with their ability to toss two dice and make one of them a 6. Need a long charge but only have 6,2,1? Now it's a 12! Some beatstick character is charging your melta sisters? Toss that 3 and 4 for an Overwatching 6 and make them save or die.

Regarding that character been thinking if you have meltagun and some 5-6 wound character comes in wonder would using MD to quarantee hit or quarantee death if gets past save be worth more?

Hitting is the least likely thing but then you still need to wound, get past 4++ or 3++ and then roll 5 or 6. And often if you don't kill it's not doing much of difference.

Alternative is fish for that 6 and if you get past save make him go splat.

Average damage wise 6 for to hit is better but is 3 or 4 wounds worth it especially as you aren't quaranteed to even get past inv save?

Of course if you have banner in the unit and sufficient MD dices(4+ebon chalice or 6+5 or 6 for others) and you can auto hit and autosplat if wound and past save

4 wound characters it's easier as you have 75% chance of splatting with 2d6 discard one plus command rerolls. It's 5 wound(55%) and 6 wound(30%) where chance of getting enough wounds gets tricky.

Of course I rarely get to overwatch character anyway as they charge some chaff first in anyway :( Presumably even more so vs sisters as your MD's are public information.

Lemondish wrote:

Lammia wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Lammia wrote:
I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...

Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game

Can't use MD on number of shots.

I personally never have enough miracle dice. I use the Simulacrum a lot - there's always something I want to do with those squads - always something that benefits my game plan that guaranteeing is far more valuable to me than a chance that it fails. I'll start using Cherubs on all BSS squads once I add a Triumph to the back field to help add more Acts of Faith to the Exorcists - I'll want the early advance rolls and 4+ melta hits from the BSS so without the Cherubs I would be totally lacking the dice needed early game.

I really kind of want to try out Ebon Chalice or Sacred Rose given how much I love this mechanic lol

I mean, I could definitely use more at the start 2 Dice doesn't go far enough T1. But as the game continues I almost start to hope for 3 ones to throw away on resurrecting a character. By T4 I have more than I can use.

I mean, I've gotten good use out of them. (I've finished off an Inquisitor with an Immolator in melee once. (Probably not worth the 2CP I spent on it but w/e)) There's just nothing beyond 12 inch charges, 4++ saves on a Beatstick Cannoness and Exos that feel like they reward me for the use of the resource.

If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?

tneva82 wrote:
If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?

I actually don't think I've rolled a 7 inch charge... they're traditionally > 9 or < 3 inches.

A single Meltagun shot's not something I'm inclined to use it on over an Exocist. Perhaps later in the game, but even then it's not game changing.

Saves are definitely a top use, but a 4+ dice to save a 9 point model early game is a waste, and volume of fire late game usually makes 1 save insignificant or is a 4++

Lammia wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?

I actually don't think I've rolled a 7 inch charge... they're traditionally > 9 or < 3 inches.

A single Meltagun shot's not something I'm inclined to use it on over an Exocist. Perhaps later in the game, but even then it's not game changing.

Saves are definitely a top use, but a 4+ dice to save a 9 point model early game is a waste, and volume of fire late game usually makes 1 save insignificant or is a 4++

It's all the little things that add up. it is a dice game at the end of the day anything that allows you to remove randomness and make it so you pass automatically or even force your opponent to throw more dies is a big long-term advantage if you're not using Miracle dice at all you can't really say it is a waste to save that nine-point model. Why take a chance on anything when you're given the ability not to

Lammia wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.

There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.

There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.


With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.

I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...

I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap

Except that it isn't doing 71% more damage. It's doing at most 53% more damage with the heavy bolter - and I hate that it's mandatory, or ~43% more damage without it.

3d3 = 6 shots average.
6 * 2/3 hit = 4 hits
4 hits * 2/3 wounding vs T5-7 (where most vehicles reside) = 2 2/3 successful wounds
3+ save becomes 6+ = 2 2/9 failed saves
3.5 damage average = 7.78 damage

1d6 = 3.5 shots average
3.5 * 2/3 hit = 2 1/3 hits
2 1/3 hits * 2/3 wounding vs T5-7 = 1 5/9 failed saves (-4 to saves on old exorcist)
1 5/9 * 3.5 damage = 5.44 damage

7.778 / 5.444 = 1.429

Canoness re-rolls keep the odds the same. As for the heavy bolter, against MEQ, you're adding at most 0.778 wounds with a canoness nearby.

 alextroy wrote:
Unless you happen to be at a WHW Tournament, you don't need to repaint your army. That is the only place I have heard of where you have to play your army the way it is painted.

Wow. So I don't paint my miniatures like ANY of the official Orders, do I just not get a conviction in a WHW tournament?