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Not even sure why you're discussing what specific cases to use MD in because their usefulness is going to be different in every game. The discussion is really wether its better to horde or burn.

I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.

I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.

I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?

The bigger the unit, the more use you get out of either (mostly because in a 5 model squad the simulacrum will be dead real fast). It's one of the biggest payoffs of having bigger squads, beside certain other benefits (2+ to hit for a long time with Martyred Lady, benefits from other orders, more effective buffing with strats, less deployments for easier fist turn, less kill points to give up etc.).
The unit that will benefit the most by far from both extra bodies, simulacrum and maybe a cherub are Retributors, followed by celestians (Celestians are great and become really amazeballs with a few buffs) and then dominions/BSS (though the best dominion loadout is 4x SB for the strat and cheap cost definitely, though depending on how the FAQ rules, being able to burn several miracle dice and 2 CP at once to auto-hit and wound with all four meltas could be terrific if you get close. As is, the 4x SB squad mostly benefits from having 2-3 extra bodies in order to keep the unit worthwhile for burning the 2 CP for blessed bolts on), though of course BSS units are mandatory while Dominions are not (and having extra Obsec bodies on an objective is good).

If you suffer from bad Miracle Dice rolls, give Ebon Chalice a spin. Burning a dud in order to get an auto 6 is absolutely ace, especially for Exorcists (passing both a 6++ save and getting a 6 damage roll every turn, cough) and also saves you points and CP you'd otherwise spend on upcycling by other means. A Dialogus helps big time otherwise (suddenly the 5 you spoke of become a 6 free of charge (well, except for the cheap cost of the character)) and might be the best fix for you.

Also agreed that Miracle Dice need to be burned fast. Turn 1 and 2 are decisive most of the time, and afterwards you either have a legs-up anyway or are unlikely to change the odds with horded dice when you are considerably behind. Having a huge bunch of miracle dice (and they tend to pill up faster with every turn) won't do much good in the end game, especially because the longer the game goes on the less situations/ important phases you'll have to burn them.Having 1-3 to use in crucial moments that might still turn up, especially in a close game, is absolutely worthwhile, but more is a waste of one of the most valuable resources sisters have, especially for players like me that tend to get bad rolls in the worst moments.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.

I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?

Completely plain, or with 2 special weapons. I haven't bought either the cherub or the simulacra.

Much like vox casters, cheap still adds up and I'm only willing to invest points into upgrading units I actually care about [read, not troop choices] and where the investment will make a significant difference. Maybe if an Exorcist could buy one, or if there was something like a laser destroyer that could really get good miles out of it, but like a BSS squad isn't really going to leverage it that well especially to buy 2 ten point upgrades for it, and 6-9 BSS squads later and the hole starts to add up.

Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.

I plan to run my BSS with a combi Melta and mace on the superior, similacrum and nothing else. The other 3 girls are fodder. Bloody rose clearly.

I just try my luck with all those meltas on the squads, and every time one hits I can auto wound if the target has no invul, or push damage when he fails an invul save.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.

I half agree.

The impact of cherubs is based on the weapons the unit has, not the number of models.

The impact of simulacra is based on how many times you get to use it. That is increased by durability, which more models enhances.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.

That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.

That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.

Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.

Just read a Goonhammer article where they were talking about 3 interesting lists that will compete at LVO, and one of them was a Sisters list. Battalion of Valorous Heart with 3 Exorcists and Celestine, Battalion of Bloody Rose with 2 Repentia units in Rhinos and a couple of Seraphim squads with hand flamers, plus a pair of Penitent Engines. The VH Battle Sisters were 10-girl squads with 2 Storm Bolters and no other upgrades, while the BR ones were 5 girls with a single SB in two of them (nothing at all in the third). I'll be curious to see how it does at LVO, as it's not too far off from lists I've been thinking about.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.

That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.

Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.

Triumph lets a unit use and extra one IIRC.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Do I need to repaint my models??

I’ve been a sisters player for over 15 years and have my army painted in traditional Bloody Rose scheme. I have really liked the Valorous Heart back story and their Convictions.
In order to play VH do I need to repaint them or can I make up a storyline to lineup the color scheme with VH?

There’s a order that split from VH that wears red armor called order of the Wounded heart, so you could use them as VH without repainting your models.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.

I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?

The bigger the unit, the more use you get out of either (mostly because in a 5 model squad the simulacrum will be dead real fast). It's one of the biggest payoffs of having bigger squads, beside certain other benefits (2+ to hit for a long time with Martyred Lady, benefits from other orders, more effective buffing with strats, less deployments for easier fist turn, less kill points to give up etc.).
The unit that will benefit the most by far from both extra bodies, simulacrum and maybe a cherub are Retributors, followed by celestians (Celestians are great and become really amazeballs with a few buffs) and then dominions/BSS (though the best dominion loadout is 4x SB for the strat and cheap cost definitely, though depending on how the FAQ rules, being able to burn several miracle dice and 2 CP at once to auto-hit and wound with all four meltas could be terrific if you get close. As is, the 4x SB squad mostly benefits from having 2-3 extra bodies in order to keep the unit worthwhile for burning the 2 CP for blessed bolts on), though of course BSS units are mandatory while Dominions are not (and having extra Obsec bodies on an objective is good).

If you suffer from bad Miracle Dice rolls, give Ebon Chalice a spin. Burning a dud in order to get an auto 6 is absolutely ace, especially for Exorcists (passing both a 6++ save and getting a 6 damage roll every turn, cough) and also saves you points and CP you'd otherwise spend on upcycling by other means. A Dialogus helps big time otherwise (suddenly the 5 you spoke of become a 6 free of charge (well, except for the cheap cost of the character)) and might be the best fix for you.

Also agreed that Miracle Dice need to be burned fast. Turn 1 and 2 are decisive most of the time, and afterwards you either have a legs-up anyway or are unlikely to change the odds with horded dice when you are considerably behind. Having a huge bunch of miracle dice (and they tend to pill up faster with every turn) won't do much good in the end game, especially because the longer the game goes on the less situations/ important phases you'll have to burn them.Having 1-3 to use in crucial moments that might still turn up, especially in a close game, is absolutely worthwhile, but more is a waste of one of the most valuable resources sisters have, especially for players like me that tend to get bad rolls in the worst moments.

See, I've found the opposite to be true. Late game is when I've found MD most useful. Making those sub-optimal plays you make because it's the best option you have actually pay off.

Had a narrative game recently. 4k of effectively Witch hunters vs 5k+ of friends big chaos collection.
Used the multi dice MD interpretation and didn't build around spamming MD generation.
Was a fun game, my take aways were:

I need to remember that Ebon Chalice can discard an MD to get an auto 6. I completely forgot I could do this all game and it would've been super useful in turn 5 when I had 8MD left, (all 1s and 2s because I was rolling absolute garbage for them all game and I only got a handful of dice over a 3) and could have made some important saves on one of my Exorcists.

Ebon Chalice 5+ against MW is actually really nice. It he lpped against smites, yes, but even against exploding vehicles, it saved more than a few models and character wounds.

The flamer strat for Ebon Chalice is good. I used it once on a dominion squad to (barely) wipe out a squad of pox walkers.

I fielded a couple units of single Anchorite Mortifiers. The speed of them was nice, but I was wanting for the Pengines FNP and for their rerolls. The save on the Anchorite was nice, but I'll definately be sticking to standard Pengines.

It was the first time I'd not fielded a Bloody Rose Cannoness with Beneficence. I didnt realise how.much I leaned on her until now. Having a blessed blade Cannoness with only 4 base attacks was so...painful.

I took a squad of 7 Zephryim. I need to try them out in some more games as they ended up going up against a squad of deathguard marines, so their performance even with rerolls was...well gak. The Pennant flag thing upgrade did help get some other squads into combat though, so that was a definate plus.

Inquisitor with Mental Interrogation for the chance at scoring some extra CP was a nice trick up the sleeve. It did score me a couple CP in the game which ultimately let me bring back a Cannoness.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.

That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.

Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.

Icon of the Valorous Heart on the Triumph lets another Exorcist act, and while I can't use an act of faith on the third, I do use low Miracle dice with Moment of Grace to upgrade a failed wound to a success after rolling, which I admittedly only do in the first turn to maximize initial damage because it costs CP.

There are so many uses for miracle dice I honestly can't believe people would be left with excess. I lean into the mechanic, though - so I guess I understand if somebody else prefers a different part of the army to take center stage.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.

That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.

Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.

Icon of the Valorous Heart on the Triumph lets another Exorcist act, and while I can't use an act of faith on the third, I do use low Miracle dice with Moment of Grace to upgrade a failed wound to a success after rolling, which I admittedly only do in the first turn to maximize initial damage because it costs CP.

There are so many uses for miracle dice I honestly can't believe people would be left with excess. I lean into the mechanic, though - so I guess I understand if somebody else prefers a different part of the army to take center stage.

Ok, I didn't have my codex handy when I asked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, for the person who was looking:

In the Battle sister squad box #4 and 5 are the two who can be built as heavy weapons girls.

Is this legal??

I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is this legal??

I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??

No-only MODIFIERS are, such as +1 to-hit. Rerolls are NOT conferred to occupants.

Ok, I thought not but wanted to ask

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is this legal??

I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??

Unless the rule specifically says so the units inside are considered to be "Not on the table" for purposes of all other rules

I'm so glad I don't plan to attend any WHW tournaments. Not that I could afford to anyway.

My LGS doesn't care what color your army is so long as you have all relevant books to use it and you identify clearly what chapter/cult/kabal/hive fleet/etc you are using.

My Sisters or going to be VH in all but the armor which will be Vallejo Gunmetal Blue (kind of a blue steel). Cloth and markings, etc will be traditional VH colors just because red and blue just work together and look good together.

My store should get the first wave of releases today or tomorrow, just depends when UPS guy shows up.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.

I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?

Completely plain, or with 2 special weapons. I haven't bought either the cherub or the simulacra.

Much like vox casters, cheap still adds up and I'm only willing to invest points into upgrading units I actually care about [read, not troop choices] and where the investment will make a significant difference. Maybe if an Exorcist could buy one, or if there was something like a laser destroyer that could really get good miles out of it, but like a BSS squad isn't really going to leverage it that well especially to buy 2 ten point upgrades for it, and 6-9 BSS squads later and the hole starts to add up.

Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.

Triple melta argent shroud BSS get great mileage out of them. Point for point they're more efficient than dominions because increasing the number of meltas doesn't increase the simulacrum value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jivardi wrote:
I'm so glad I don't plan to attend any WHW tournaments. Not that I could afford to anyway.

My LGS doesn't care what color your army is so long as you have all relevant books to use it and you identify clearly what chapter/cult/kabal/hive fleet/etc you are using.

My Sisters or going to be VH in all but the armor which will be Vallejo Gunmetal Blue (kind of a blue steel). Cloth and markings, etc will be traditional VH colors just because red and blue just work together and look good together.

My store should get the first wave of releases today or tomorrow, just depends when UPS guy shows up.

No one on earth will ever enforce those painting rules on a non-marine army. Not that many people COULD. Even most marine armies will get away with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pauly wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
Do I need to repaint my models??

I’ve been a sisters player for over 15 years and have my army painted in traditional Bloody Rose scheme. I have really liked the Valorous Heart back story and their Convictions.
In order to play VH do I need to repaint them or can I make up a storyline to lineup the color scheme with VH?

There’s a order that split from VH that wears red armor called order of the Wounded heart, so you could use them as VH without repainting your models.

Don't repaint you models for rules, ever. No one will be able to call you on them(because no one knows what Sisters look like) and even if they did, just claim it's a homebrew chapter.

Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?

I’ve played fully meched Sisters since 2003 (Repressors and Immolators). I’m also a competitive player who has over the last few years allied in Imperial Guard.

But I’m ready to get back to Pure Sisters. No doubt we still don’t have the tools to compete top tier but we do have some kick... and as I try out new lists the more I come to the belief that horde is the most competitive build we have. I hate it as I’ve never played horde but if it gets my Girls winning more then ok.

I’ve been using 90 or so troop Girls as my core in a brigade with supporting staff. Model count has averaged 140 with no vehicles. Also been adding Coteaz for Psyker support.
I think Val Heart is the best for horde, giving every model 6++/6+++ minimum and ignoring AP1. Add in a couple Imagifiers for ignore AP2 in much of the list, Divine Guidance Trait, around 30 storm bolters / 15 MM / 10 combiplasmas and a few Infernos on the Canonesses - that’s a lot of firepower with the majority re-rolling 1s.

Anyone else having good success with hordes?

Good luck in Vegas today, Rynner!

I've found I get good mileage out of spreading my meltaguns out in more BSS, rather htan focused all in a few dominions. Each meltagun having a few ablative wounds helps them get more shots out.

But I also play Bloody Rose, not Argent Shroud or the other convictions, and my playtested lists are probably far from optimized (they're just what I personally want to play).

I'm actually considering removing my Dominions for Seraphim in spite of mine being originally intended to be an entirely mechanized list.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?

I’ve played fully meched Sisters since 2003 (Repressors and Immolators). I’m also a competitive player who has over the last few years allied in Imperial Guard.

But I’m ready to get back to Pure Sisters. No doubt we still don’t have the tools to compete top tier but we do have some kick... and as I try out new lists the more I come to the belief that horde is the most competitive build we have. I hate it as I’ve never played horde but if it gets my Girls winning more then ok.

I’ve been using 90 or so troop Girls as my core in a brigade with supporting staff. Model count has averaged 140 with no vehicles. Also been adding Coteaz for Psyker support.
I think Val Heart is the best for horde, giving every model 6++/6+++ minimum and ignoring AP1. Add in a couple Imagifiers for ignore AP2 in much of the list, Divine Guidance Trait, around 30 storm bolters / 15 MM / 10 combiplasmas and a few Infernos on the Canonesses - that’s a lot of firepower with the majority re-rolling 1s.

Anyone else having good success with hordes?

I've not been playing REAL hordes, but I'm usually trying to put about 70 sisters on the table. It has done well for me so far. Still has room to bring some nice equipment and specialist units instead of just cramming as many bodies as possible.

76 models in my 2K list - so not a horde by Ork/Guard standards.

Celestine, 3x Exorcists and support characters take up a decent amount of points.

I'm running about 100 models atm but then again with GW release schedule made other than infantry swarm quickly hard. And don't have cash to buy tons of vehicles even if all comes out. Just exorcists not good in that they will just eat all AT if alone.

Where's our LVO updates, dudes and dudettes? How are the nuns with guns fairing?

Sisters vs iron hands on stream right now

Edit: unsurprisingly(iron hands) sisters got totally blasted.

In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.