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Purifying Tempest wrote:
All harping on the useful/lessness of the Zerphyrim please remember that Bloody Rose Zephyrim have "Tear Them Down" at their disposal.

So the worst case (6+T), they're wounding on 5s and re-rolling all fails. One squad of 10 BR Zephyrim are pushing out something like 31 attacks, hitting about 20 times and wounding 10ish of them when it is all said and done? And with AP -4 due to BR, most things just won't get a save at all.

Sounds pretty good to me.

I am thinking of rolling with 2 squads of Zephyrim instead of 3, and putting in a 8 girl Repentia squad + Rhino for about the same points... and tossing in the Missionary + BR Canoness into it. I may go down to 7 Repentia and toss in a BR Imagifier as well, but that's down to the tweaking stuff phase.

4 swings each with a missionary, also dont forget rerolling 1's

thats 20 wounds vs T6+
29 wounds vs T4

It's tough to compare Repentia and Zephyrim as they're made for different things.

If you want something dead NOW you take Repentia, they kill it and thats them dead. If you want to tie a unit up for a bit while killing it, or want to stab something after their initial combat, you take Zephyrim.

This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

 davidgr33n wrote:
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.

ERJAK wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.

Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.

 Sim-Life wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.

Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.

Zeph is 17 pts. For 3 more I get a Gem with 2W 3A base and a character. Yes they don’t get buffs, but I can fill an Elite slot for 20 and when it dies free MD.

Plus it fits nicely into my Fly list (a brigade and vanguard with 30 Zephs and 18 Seraphim)

I mean, I'd be tempted to take geminae to fill a slot if we had jump pack canonesses.

But sadly, we don't.

Though I guess they're less useful to me as I don't intend to take any named characters at all.

 MacPhail wrote:
Zephyrim sound fantastic and I'll be starting to convert mine as soon as this month's painting contest is over.

As for mech vs. foot/horde, I don't see it as black and white as Jancoran paints it... he's done well competitively, but there are plenty of TAC builds that will struggle with 8+ vehicles with invuln and FNP shenanigans and we can fill them with a nasty variety of surprises. I ran three Rhinos last game and the one that made it delivered Canoness, Imagifier, Preacher, and Celestians right to where they would do the most damage. If I'd walked them, they'd have needed a different Order to even get there, and BR damage output just seems too good to pass up.

I played mech before the change to beta codex snd it worked perfectly. Beta made it bad. New codex makes it middle of the road.

There are so many reasons for it. Metas being different over that time for one, but i dont think mech makes you "not win". I was 7-4 with mech. Problem was the margins of victory were just not good enough. If all youre doing is trying to win, mech will get ya there. pretty often. If youv wanna win tournaments, you need to dominate in points and mech probably wont.

So the frame of reference matters here. Competitively, mech isnt the play. But if you just wanna win, margins be damned, it can be done w mech. I never spoke differently on that broader point. Our discussion, I assume, has to do w tournament play.

Even in 4th and 5th edition, on foot (for the most part) was stronger. Armor was really good in that index tho. Loved it.

So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...

Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.

Help

That's a question people have trying to answer for themselves and the only sure answer is: not Dominions

davidgr33n wrote:So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...

Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.

Help

I'm not Jancoran, but I do play competitively at a local level.

I've handled the tank threat with Exorcists, Repentia, Seraphim, and embedded meltaguns. It's not really as good or as capable as I'd like it to be though, since it doesn't meet my minimum bar of "delete a knight on turn 1" capability [only the Exorcists are in range turn 1].

Lammia wrote:That's a question people have trying to answer for themselves and the only sure answer is: not Dominions

Basically, yeah.

I played allies the last two editions and I miss playing pure Sisters so giving it a go again. I just wish we had more tools. I know we shouldn’t compare but SM has more choices in just their HQ section than we do in our entire Codex lol

Oops, miscounted, we have 24 total choices and they have 23 HQ choices.

 davidgr33n wrote:
So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...

Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.

Help

Well im having an absolute happy dance on the graves of most armor, using exorcists+Hunter Killer tanks. Every squad has 3 meltaguns. I have a singular Multimelta retributor unit (Argent shroud) that does work and can usually hide and make hay. Frightening to fire 6 multimeltas, if you want to, from one squad, with 18" "juice range" using the strat. Essentially kills at will if you have points. 2d6 take the highest, plus 1 damage...and w miracle dice, canoness nearby,... I mean... KARTHOOM. And remember always that seraphim are taken largely for their ability to "get there" but w argent shroud you can do it turn one instead of 2.

Alternatives do exist. The Seraphim quad meltas is of course strong because you cannot alpha strike it dead. Extremely solid and worth taking because: Raven Guard are a thing. So if you were seeing a lot of first turn strikes (and who isnt?) Then Seraphim start looking really attractive. They are also attractive for a reason you cant see on the stat sheets: they are terrain proof. That means I'm not totally screwed when LVO decides to put jack shizl on the board like they did in the stream of Sisters vs. Iron Hands. That terrain was criminal. When the board joins forces w your opponent, you will love how little Seraphim care.

Obviously we have some seeeeerious killing power in sisters Repentia (bloody Rose). I mean nuclear level killing power there and generally just as "one use only" barring favorable terrain.

My solution to armor has been pretty consistent over the years: give out lots of hugs, and embrace the ideal of acceptable losses.

You can hug, and then walk out of combat w a unit using a strat which is equally great.

 davidgr33n wrote:
I played allies the last two editions and I miss playing pure Sisters so giving it a go again. I just wish we had more tools. I know we shouldn’t compare but SM has more choices in just their HQ section than we do in our entire Codex lol

Oops, miscounted, we have 24 total choices and they have 23 HQ choices.

How many marine choices are totally redundant? Or super niche models that barely see use? I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now. We kill infantry easy. Exos make short work of armor, we have so many good melee options its a bit silly, you can build Sisters to be super difficult to kill if you want. The only thing we really lack is anti-air but a VH exo can down a plane pretty easily. More options would only ruin the pretty damn good internal balance the army has.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.

Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.

I feel like the pace of releases for, say, AdMech (another newish army) should give us hope. The core release gives us a diverse and playable force, and new units will continue to trickle out over the next few years. There was a lot of whining that AdMech had no transports... now they've got one, plus fliers and funky new cavalry. Surely a named character from each order is in the long range plans? I could also see a new line of Ministorum models, maybe throw militia back in the mix... a lot could happen down the line.

 Sim-Life wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.

Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.

ERJACK isn't the only one that thinks Geminae aren't worth the points. I've detailed their issues ad nauseum on B&C and most of the Geminae's issues break down to being a separate unit from Celestine and the problems that creates for them vs. their intended role. I'm of the opinion that I'd might take them if they were free, but I'd think long and hard about it first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.

Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.

So much this.

* 5 named characters including Legends, two of which are Ministorum, a third is effectively sub-faction locked, the fourth is a worse smash captain for more points, and the fifth is a nice centerpiece but appears to be impractical to field.
* Only one generic HQ if you want to run pure Sisters in an era of Rule of 3, forcing you to take one of the special characters if you need a 4th HQ
* a generic HQ that's 0-1 per detachment but may be required if you want to take more than one Conclave unit
* an army of mostly elite-choices, some of which are restricted to one per detachment unless you take some sort of priest
* one total troops choice
* a motor pool that really should have been expanded
* in order to bring Flyers (battlefield role), you must take an Air Wing detachment from an allied faction - thus losing Sacred Rites in doing so because no Flyers have the Adepta Sororitas or Adeptus Ministorum keywords, whereas pre-8th we had the ASF...

Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.

As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.

Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim

tneva82 wrote:
Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.

As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.

Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim

They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.

You have bare minimum slots to fill. More often 10 or 12. Assuming you don't have celestine. But really interested to see list where you have only brigade and more than 8 elites.

And 2-3 det's ain't that hard. Lot easier than filling 9+ slots.

 davidgr33n wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?

Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.

Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.

Zeph is 17 pts. For 3 more I get a Gem with 2W 3A base and a character. Yes they don’t get buffs, but I can fill an Elite slot for 20 and when it dies free MD.

Plus it fits nicely into my Fly list (a brigade and vanguard with 30 Zephs and 18 Seraphim)

They're not a Zephyrim without buffs, they're a worse Seraphim Superior without buffs. And even if they were a zephyrim, zephyrim without bloody rose would be several points overpriced.

Look at it this way, you can either pay 20 points for a 2 wound model(i.e. easy killpoint fodder) that does nothing except .5 damage to a space marine, or you could pay 10 more points for a 4 wound model that gives everything in 6" plus 1 attack. If he buffs 2 Zephyrim you'll get more use out of him than a Geminae superia. If you spend 5 more points than that, you can have a hospitaller which only needs to bring back 1 zephyrim to be more useful than a geminae and also gives you a miracle dice on death.

The Geminae superia accomplishes nothing and is actively detrimental in missions that reward victory points for killing units, characters, or itc missions where 'kill more' is a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.

As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.

Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim

They DO often have a negative impact. They're a free victory point for your opponent in a lot of missions. Especially in a world where 1 eliminator can kill them from 36" out. Are they THAT bad in every mission? No. But if you're playing a game with kill more, kill a character, first blood, headhunters, maelstrom cards for your opponent that reward killing a character, etc, your opponent is starting the game with as many as 3 free victory points just because you brought a geminae with you.

Also, what unit could the geminae charge that will survive both overwatch AND melee? She dies to rhino with stormbolter.That's an imaginary scenario.

Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.

This is the list I’ve been experimenting with lately and is performing better than my Repressor list.

Sisters list 2000 pts / 16 CP less 2 CP (extra Relic, WL trait on Inq Hex)
14 CP to start

Inquisition Attachment

110 Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex, Teleport Strike, Psychic Hood, Storm Shield (so 2+/3++), Arias, Bolt Pistol. Knows 4 (Smite, Terrify, Castigation, Interrogation) / Casts3 / Denies4

Bloody Rose Vanguard detachment

50 Canoness, Plasma pistol, Beneficience Relic
525 3x 10x Zephyrim, 2x plasma pistols, 1x Zephyrim Banner

Valorous Heart Brigade detachment

45 WL Canoness, Trait: Beacon of Faith
45 Canoness, Emperor’s Pistol Relic
38 Missionary
270 6x 5x Battle Sisters
45 Imagifier (Stoic)
20 Geminae
60 5x Celestians, Hvy Bolter
528 3x Exorcists, HKM
264 3x 5x Seraphim, 4- Inferno Pistols, Plasma pistols on Superiors

Inquisitor Hex, Zephyrim and Seraphim all come in from deep strike. The Geminae sometimes is close enough to lend support.
Hex can use the Terrify power to keep an opposing unit from shooting Overwatch.

I’m not happy with my ant-tank but I can’t think of anything else to do.

For anyone curious, magnetising the new Penitent Engine is easy enough. The pilots are easily interchangeable without modification, if you bore a hole where the arm peg is and hollow out the shoulder pad and file away about half the shoulder joint of the arm the magnets meet without looking weird and the flamers can be put on/taken off over over the magnets.

They can also be modeled with both feet on the ground as long as you don't put the hip pegs into their slots.

 Melissia wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.

Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.

I would LOVE to see a Baal Predator/Deimos Predator Infernus type unit for sisters. Basically heavier armor with a magna melta or a flame storm cannon than an Immolator in order to have some maximum carnage and still very much keeping with the sisters play style of up close and personal combat. And naturally their love of over decoration. It would be a good in between for the long range exorcist and the transports.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.

Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to waste hunting geminia instead of actually useful character and give me extra md feel free. As a matter of fact i'm not even worrying about that as i want him to shoot them.

Kill more is itc balance crap so whatever. First strike and if opponent can do that then either he's using eliminators and wasting them or you plain suck as there isn'" other out of los shooting snipers of worry. I want those 90 odd pts rather kill 20 pts character that is no loss rather than 45 pts whose death negates my order bonus entirely.

As soon as I convert one, the gemina will be an autoinclude in all my lists. She moves 12" and is a char for 20 points. In 2 missions she is automatically a victory point plus an MD. For 20 points, that is broken.

In the other ones, she is a cheap way to keep a backfield objective without being TFCed away.

I don't care about giving away free strike on her, I don't think that you ever have problems scoring that against sisters.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.

Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to waste hunting geminia instead of actually useful character and give me extra md feel free. As a matter of fact i'm not even worrying about that as i want him to shoot them.

Kill more is itc balance crap so whatever. First strike and if opponent can do that then either he's using eliminators and wasting them or you plain suck as there isn'" other out of los shooting snipers of worry. I want those 90 odd pts rather kill 20 pts character that is no loss rather than 45 pts whose death negates my order bonus entirely.

I mean, you can't resurrect Genevieve/Eleanor...

 Mmmpi wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.

As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.

Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim

They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.

Sort of. 1 Missionary per detach, +1 Canoness per detach, +1 Celestine is enough to fill out the HQ req for a Brigade and 2 Battalions. I don't think you could go for more.

Now do you actually want those extra missionaries? Probably not.


As for the viability of Geminae Superia: maybe if I wanted to fill an elite slot.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.

As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.

Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim

They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.

Sort of. 1 Missionary per detach, +1 Canoness per detach, +1 Celestine is enough to fill out the HQ req for a Brigade and 2 Battalions. I don't think you could go for more.

Now do you actually want those extra missionaries? Probably not.


As for the viability of Geminae Superia: maybe if I wanted to fill an elite slot.

Oh I specifically said for people who wanted sister only lists. It's do able with redundant missionaries and with [no order] special characters.