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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
People were complaining that if people are imposing tournament restrictions onto advice or discusson then they should clearly state such, rather than assuming that the restrictions are the default.
Hell, last thread when ERJACK was calling the Battle Sanctum useless because it takes up a detachment slot I was super confused because I'd never heard of ANY detachment limits. Turns out it was one of those rules that GWsuggested that people just started acting like its a rule because tournaments do it.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
I swear its like some people don't understand how a hobby community works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 11:28:39
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisition and Tau have it too.
that's right, although Tau IIRC had it FAq'd in after people abused commanders yeah?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisition and Tau have it too.
that's right, although Tau IIRC had it FAq'd in after people abused commanders yeah?
That sounds right.
Inquisition has it more for fluff reasons, I think.(Though there's nothing fulffy about a Supreme Command detachment of Farsight Enclave Coldstars, one with Fusion Blades)
The Missionary restriction is both fluff and 'we needed a reason to convince you to waste points on a Preacher outside of a 'make Nightlords reroll their morale save' meme.'
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Kinnay wrote:
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
I am doing 2x4 Repentia. 4 BR Repentia basically kill anything they touch as is, especially with CP investment. Pin down the overwatch with a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun [or the rhino, or whatever], then charge with 4 while leaving the other 4 in the Rhino for charging in the next turn. That said, I've made the mistake of sending in both together sometimes, and I need to remember not to do that.
I haven't really settled in on a list that I like yet, because I've been kind of unhappy with all of them that I've turned up. So far, I've mostly been using variations on a theme of 3x Exorcists, Repentia in a Rhino, some Seraphim, and a bunch of BSS with or without special weapons.
On one hand, it feels that BSS without special weapons are pretty lame for something I have so many of, on the other hand those special weapons are hideously expensive and take points away from units that might perform better. I advance a lot, so picking Argent Shroud over Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose might be worth considering.
Repentia usually do work and trade positively. They only need to kill one thing to make their cost back. I'm pretty happy with them, but have found myself dropping to 1x4 when I'm strapped for points despite them having pretty consistently solid performance.
I think Pengines are better than Mortifiers. I've tried both, and I'm struggling to see why I'd want a Mortifier over a Pengine considering they're virtually identical but the Pengine has 4+ re-rolling to hit & and 5+++ versus 3+ no-re-rolls and a 6+++.
I'm unhappy with Exorcists. I've run 2 classic 1 conflagration, 2 classic, and 3 classic. I'm unhappy with the performance of all three of the permutations, but I'm not comfortable dropping them and having no AT beyond 12". We've already had this discussion though, and I'm in the minority.
I want to run Zephyrim when they come out. I think they look very solid, however:
With Zephyrim and Seraphim, I don't know how many I want to run and in what squad size. On one hand, I can only effectively drop with 1 of each on turns 2 and 3. Seraphim require a stratagem, and Zephyrim require good Miracle Dice. I could also try to run both with Celestine running up the board with 4++ as a big horde of jump infantry, but it's a very expensive block no matter how you read it that won't be doing anything on turn 1 and still isn't very resilient. I think I want my Zerphyrim squads to be big and Seraphim squads to be small, but I'm not sure on that.
Theoretically, Rets look good, especially in a power armored foothorde. But I'm not confident in a power armored foothorde standing up to anything, much less a stiff breeze, given the state of the meta, and I'm not confident even a squad of 10 rets will survive past the enemy's first shooting phase. I'm also not confident in not having at least mid ranged antitank.
I'm also not really final or happy with picking doctrines. Valorous Heart feels strong, but also like it's only strong because of the meta, and that I'm giving up my choice of potentially offensive bonus to counter a kind of free property of the enemy army. Bloody Rose also feels strong, but only on a small subset of units, making me hesitant to take it for the whole army. Argent Shroud also feels like it would be good.
On the subject of alternative anti tank / experience with exorcists I am actually quite interested in your thoughts on this. My sister army is just a fledgling at this point, I have 35 sisters for basic troops, an imagifier, 3 canoness, and some seraphim at the moment. I was looking at exorcists but it seems everyone in my local meta is running 3 of them and it makes me wonder if there is a better option/viable alternative out there that I am missing. I don't want to drop 240$ on 3 tanks without really thinking ahead and making sure there were no better options to choose from.
davidgr33n wrote: Anybody thinking of using the sanctum in their games?
In an infantry only VH list it might be competitive to place 3 units of melta Rets on a placable terrain for 2+ with a Stoic Imagifier for the ignores (1 and 2) AP, plus maybe a Canoness with Indomitable Belief for a 5++ and reroll 1s. That would make them 2+/5++/6+++.
And the sanctum gives 1 extra MD per turn. The Ld boost is meh but can only help.
Sanctum is a great option. Best terrain piece in the game. Amazing for VH especiall.
Also take Celestine in that setup so even if they are AP-3 they still bounce off the 4++.
I’ve considered Celestine in the list but just to keep her there as a buff seems pricey.
Another benefit is on the top floor no dreads or mechs can get to them.
Have we seen actual dimensions on the Sanctum yet? I'm going to build to match my table with a full base to make it clear what's in and what's out. Without feeling too bad about modeling for advantage there will be room for an Exo, a small squad, and a couple of characters on the lower level. Other than that I intend to match the original as closely as possible.
I tend to deploy Celestine in the rear to start and move her off after turn 1, especially when I go second. Her aura helps the Exos in the first enemy volley and then follows the main force into no man's land.
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament.
But you know, this isn't a new problem, considering it's a problem that Mechanicus faced for a while, too, so if you haven't adjusted your rules yet you're a disgrace of a tournament organizer.
This made me laugh a lot. It's like a vegan looking at a 10 page menu and then calling the restaurant trash because they don't cater enough to the vegan's self imposed limitations.
I don't think any tournament attendees will be missing out by not playing against someone with this attitude.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Kinnay wrote:
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
I am doing 2x4 Repentia. 4 BR Repentia basically kill anything they touch as is, especially with CP investment. Pin down the overwatch with a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun [or the rhino, or whatever], then charge with 4 while leaving the other 4 in the Rhino for charging in the next turn. That said, I've made the mistake of sending in both together sometimes, and I need to remember not to do that.
I haven't really settled in on a list that I like yet, because I've been kind of unhappy with all of them that I've turned up. So far, I've mostly been using variations on a theme of 3x Exorcists, Repentia in a Rhino, some Seraphim, and a bunch of BSS with or without special weapons.
On one hand, it feels that BSS without special weapons are pretty lame for something I have so many of, on the other hand those special weapons are hideously expensive and take points away from units that might perform better. I advance a lot, so picking Argent Shroud over Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose might be worth considering.
Repentia usually do work and trade positively. They only need to kill one thing to make their cost back. I'm pretty happy with them, but have found myself dropping to 1x4 when I'm strapped for points despite them having pretty consistently solid performance.
I think Pengines are better than Mortifiers. I've tried both, and I'm struggling to see why I'd want a Mortifier over a Pengine considering they're virtually identical but the Pengine has 4+ re-rolling to hit & and 5+++ versus 3+ no-re-rolls and a 6+++.
I'm unhappy with Exorcists. I've run 2 classic 1 conflagration, 2 classic, and 3 classic. I'm unhappy with the performance of all three of the permutations, but I'm not comfortable dropping them and having no AT beyond 12". We've already had this discussion though, and I'm in the minority.
I want to run Zephyrim when they come out. I think they look very solid, however:
With Zephyrim and Seraphim, I don't know how many I want to run and in what squad size. On one hand, I can only effectively drop with 1 of each on turns 2 and 3. Seraphim require a stratagem, and Zephyrim require good Miracle Dice. I could also try to run both with Celestine running up the board with 4++ as a big horde of jump infantry, but it's a very expensive block no matter how you read it that won't be doing anything on turn 1 and still isn't very resilient. I think I want my Zerphyrim squads to be big and Seraphim squads to be small, but I'm not sure on that.
Theoretically, Rets look good, especially in a power armored foothorde. But I'm not confident in a power armored foothorde standing up to anything, much less a stiff breeze, given the state of the meta, and I'm not confident even a squad of 10 rets will survive past the enemy's first shooting phase. I'm also not confident in not having at least mid ranged antitank.
I'm also not really final or happy with picking doctrines. Valorous Heart feels strong, but also like it's only strong because of the meta, and that I'm giving up my choice of potentially offensive bonus to counter a kind of free property of the enemy army. Bloody Rose also feels strong, but only on a small subset of units, making me hesitant to take it for the whole army. Argent Shroud also feels like it would be good.
On the subject of alternative anti tank / experience with exorcists I am actually quite interested in your thoughts on this. My sister army is just a fledgling at this point, I have 35 sisters for basic troops, an imagifier, 3 canoness, and some seraphim at the moment. I was looking at exorcists but it seems everyone in my local meta is running 3 of them and it makes me wonder if there is a better option/viable alternative out there that I am missing. I don't want to drop 240$ on 3 tanks without really thinking ahead and making sure there were no better options to choose from.
There is no better/viable option to fill the role the Exorcist does [outside of bringing in allied support]. Rets are the only maybe option, and they only even get close to making range with a stratagem and they're more fragile, and still scarily expensive.
You kind of need to have the capability that the Exorcist offers. What makes me unhappy is that now they're both so expensive and impossible to fix. The old one could be fixed after seeing the roll with a command re-roll, and at 125 points it was pretty cheap enough that even if it didn't perform for one turn it wasn't a major problem. The new one's fixing stratagem has to be used before seeing the roll [how am I going to be prescient enough to know which one of mine will fail], and with 3d3 for the roll a single command re-roll won't go as far for fixing it once you've rolled poorly.
Also, 135 points is a lot of points, it's a whole squad of Seraphim, or a lot of meltaguns to hand out. Hell, it's almost a battalion of Guardsmen for CP and objective holding.
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 16:14:47
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Have we seen actual dimensions on the Sanctum yet? I'm going to build to match my table with a full base to make it clear what's in and what's out. Without feeling too bad about modeling for advantage there will be room for an Exo, a small squad, and a couple of characters on the lower level. Other than that I intend to match the original as closely as possible.
I tend to deploy Celestine in the rear to start and move her off after turn 1, especially when I go second. Her aura helps the Exos in the first enemy volley and then follows the main force into no man's land.
It's mostly made out of standard Sector Imperialis bits.
The height is easy 5" + 5" + ~2" for the spires - so about a foot.
I don't have my Imperialis terrain handy, so I can't measure the other elements, but it should be calculable.
I'm also assuming that the FAQ or instructions will require the statue to be placed within the Ո formed by the Imperialis pieces.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
Immolators are dedicated transports. You can take 1 for every non-DT, non-Flyer BFR, non-Fortification, non-LoW unit in your army. :3
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 17:20:31
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
From the game ive played Heavy bolts are really good this addition and really good for sisters with divine guidance. I played a match they was bolter focused as sacred heart to try out their strat of every to-hit of a 6 adds another hit with DG as my rite. Had a Dom squad with storm bolts with blessed bolts and s.heart strat wipe out a full squad of primaris that where in cover. I got more hits that what I rolled and got super lucky with 9 to-wound being 6s for a swarm of ap-3 d2.
As for triple hb immolator it's the cheapest immolator and you don't have to advance with it every turn. First turn should be with move advance pop smoke anyway. Second turn drops the girls off then goes harassment or softens up the unit that's about to get charged. Just remember they get bonus from rites too.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
I have put "Beacon of Faith" on my 2nd Canoness, who also has Litanies of Faith. So 2 MD a turn and I can reroll one. She is slightly farther back to give the rerolls to the Exorcists, behind them if there are eliminators.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 19:09:01
"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament..
There's 2 special characters(and sisters at that) that aren't tied to different order. Triump and Celestine. So even if you have some silly house rule of no missionaries you can still get brigade+battalion easily. Only triple battalion is out of you.
alextroy wrote: Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
A tournament having gakky, unnecessary, and poorly balanced house rules that make me unable to play my list is well worthy of criticism.
It's no more bad than player himself having own house rules making army unplayable. Like certain dakkadakka poster who had house rule of fielding only tactical marines with missile launcher and flamer and expecting to win with nothing but those. That's up to player. Not for tournament organizer. If player makes silly artificial limitations that's his issue.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
Uh what you are saying? ITC did not say such thing. They said to check conversions before hand. And even if you didn't you weren't disqualified. Model just could not be used.
And chaplain dreads aren't in legends to begin with...Might want to check up on what legends are actually before you claim what it was for.
edit: Also if issue is "they are males in all women army" then that's even extra silly seeing missionaries and preachers are both women and men. "These men and women serve as the front line of the Ministorum, guiding the newest followers of the God-Emperor in their day-to-day prayers and observances.".
So you have both male and women missionary/preachers in same organization. So limiting them is about as sensible as me saying "canoness does not fit my headcannon. Release another generic HQ or I can't play! Your tournament rules suck!"
I am also on the "no men in my army" bandwagon. I finally get an all girl army to have fun with and go all girl power and they go and sully it with an ancient male model. pfffffttttt. That priest model from anvil looks pretty awesome and I'm really hoping that Victoria miniatures does something as well (her stuff is just AMAZING! albeit expensive) I hate the baddest girls in the galaxy (or whatever it is called) because it is purely sexism in resin.
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
It depends on a lot of things. It wouldn't be any use on a cheerleader Canonness as shes going to be keeping back near the exorcist battery, its also not really something to take unless your specifically building around Sacred Rose.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 19:45:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 19:55:13
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions
Next time I hear someone say "you're playing mechanized? freaking casual, nobody plays that any more", I'm going to start crotch-punting people.
Everyone has their limit on what they want to play. I want to play pure Sisters of Battle, and I feel like having a mechanized list (eventually, of course, cause it's gonna get expensive). But within those confines, I still want to have as good a list as I possibly can. If I wanted to just play the most powerful army in the game I probably wouldn't bother playing Sisters at all. But I pick an army based on how much I like its aesthetics and theme, not on how much I love how powerful it is. Tactics and advice isn't just for pure 100% WAAC players. Most of those posters are going to avoid this thread anyway.
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Sim-Life wrote: 36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
Yes, but you're paying a premium for it.
It's around 148 points for four of those with two armorium cherubs, which packs a pretty hefty wallop-- six shots on one turn, four on every other turn.
But good luck getting that in range without getting it blown to pieces. I mean, I can see it maybe working, but it's a very, very high risk, and the reward doesn't feel like it's quite enough for me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:03:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Are there any difference in the models from the different boxes?
I know that you can make battle sisters, Dominions and celestians from the same box.
But what about Retributors?
Do they differ from the other models in body appereance?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions
Next time I hear someone say "you're playing mechanized? freaking casual, nobody plays that any more", I'm going to start crotch-punting people.
Everyone has their limit on what they want to play. I want to play pure Sisters of Battle, and I feel like having a mechanized list (eventually, of course, cause it's gonna get expensive). But within those confines, I still want to have as good a list as I possibly can. If I wanted to just play the most powerful army in the game I probably wouldn't bother playing Sisters at all. But I pick an army based on how much I like its aesthetics and theme, not on how much I love how powerful it is. Tactics and advice isn't just for pure 100% WAAC players. Most of those posters are going to avoid this thread anyway.
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Sim-Life wrote: 36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
Yes, but you're paying a premium for it.
It's around 148 points for four of those with two armorium cherubs, which packs a pretty hefty wallop-- six shots on one turn, four on every other turn.
But good luck getting that in range without getting it blown to pieces. I mean, I can see it maybe working, but it's a very, very high risk, and the reward doesn't feel like it's quite enough for me.
I agree with both points on this. No point kicking the horse on rule of 3/self imposed restrictions/match play vs open or casual, it is what it is. If someone wants advice and adds "my group doesnt use rule of 3" then cool, but people have to own some of their own preconceptions here. 95% of the time when people on these tactics threads want feed back or advice they are talking match play rule of 3. That makes it the questioners job to point out if that's not the case, not the advice givers job to figure out.
As for the retributers i want to like them as well, but i think 12" heavy flamers is a better situation for them than 36" meltas. People are going to target a 36" potential melta range quick, they may ignore the 12" flamers until its too late because it's not as quick a threat. Plus the cost difference is quite substantial.
Asking tactic help with self imposed guide lines is fine. Accusing tournament organizers having stupid tournament rules and being bad persons etc because they haven't deigned to design tournament rules to make it better for you is not.
I don't like facing iron hands. Any tournament that doesn't ban iron hands sucks and organizer is jerk!
Or "my order doesn't have any canoness left. Your tournament sucks because it doesn't allow me to use this house ruled new HQ".
Sim-Life wrote: It depends on a lot of things. It wouldn't be any use on a cheerleader Canonness as shes going to be keeping back near the exorcist battery, its also not really something to take unless your specifically building around Sacred Rose.
I was aiming for a fluffy flamer-spam list using the Order of the Ashen Shrine (derived from Sacred Rose). The canonesses don't really fit in at all to be honest, but I don't exactly have a lot of HQ choices
I have put "Beacon of Faith" on my 2nd Canoness, who also has Litanies of Faith. So 2 MD a turn and I can reroll one. She is slightly farther back to give the rerolls to the Exorcists, behind them if there are eliminators.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
36" Multi Meltas are 1 unit under that effect for 2CP a turn, and 4 Melta shots isn't an adequate turn-1 AT pool. Arguably, I don't think the exorcist battery is entirely an adequate turn-1 AT pool, since if they're all you have there are definitely going to be times where you let the enemy's key model have a turn because the Exorcists couldn't zonk it.
Those 36" range rets actually have to get lucky to scratch a tank on the first turn, so if you can't even reliably turn-1 take out a Leman Russ, your antitank pool is too small. My general bar was/is to be able to turn-1 a Knight to be considered adequate, or at least get close enough that some inefficient shooting can finish it.
Bilge Rat wrote:Inexperienced Sisters of Battle player here
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
No, it's not realistic to expect your canoness to be performing a lot of MD's.
I'd even argue that I'd rather my Warlord Traits go to re-roll wounds on the charge and +1 Invul Save.
I also think that having a small number of better MD is better than having a lot of weaker ones, since investing heavily into simulacra to outflow a large number of them wherever they may be needed doesn't seem as value to me as popping a 5 or a 6 for damage once a turn and just having more meltaguns to shoot, so if I was taking a faith-based warlord trait, I'd take the one that sets the first one you get to a 6.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
Immolators are dedicated transports. You can take 1 for every non-DT, non-Flyer BFR, non-Fortification, non-LoW unit in your army. :3
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
I was and to some degree still am using HB Immolators. I would say the worst immolator is 2x Multimelta [expensive], middle is flamers [expensive but effective, and best is Heavy Bolters [lowest cost, reasonable effect].
I'm not too keen on the Immolator in general right now though. I'm afraid to use it as a staff car for characters, and since I can't use Dominions with them anymore, I don't really have a whole lot to ride in them. Also, they're expensive and I have so many units I want to buy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 22:44:29
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
I’ve been experimenting with lists and I agree an Exo point for point is better than a unit of Retributors. But when I use pure infantry lists with 3 units of Retributors they actually last longer than 3 Exorcists due to my opponent’s antitank weapons not having tanks to go after. In my VH pure infantry list they have no choice but to plink my infantry.
Since I usually play forward in my deployment zone with the Rets in cover and with Canoness and Imagifier auras, they can hit any aggressive big stuff or flyers. My experience is big stuff in the opponents backfield is meant to deal with my big stuff, so not having any gives me an edge and I usually don’t worry about them. If I do need to take care of something further back I get my Inferno Seraphims to deal with them.
Maybe not the most effective but unless their deep backfield units are heavy anti-infantry I’m usually not worried about what their weapons can do to my units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 23:19:26
Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
Melta Immolators have never been that popular in 8th edition. Those who have tried one have found them too expensive for what they do, especially if you're moving them.
Immolators generally are overpriced, but you can get away with them if you want the fire support they offer.
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
I mean, I opened the edition with Immolator Spam.
I'm not doing it anymore. They're just not worth the cost.
In beta codex, they were viable bullet sponges for Exorcists, since three from your doms would be in the enemy face and they were about the same cost as the Exorcists. Now, with Exorcists so expensive and no ability to scout Immolators? No. Almost certainly not. The immolators will never contribute as much as the Exorcists, so it's an easy choice to frag the Exorcists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/31 00:57:31
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Walkers aren't really at option as such. They are distraction carnlfex. Even the tougher variant of penitent engine dies when given evil stare let alone actual firepower. Best at role they serve eating up few shots away from exorcists due to rule of 3. And seeing how hard reaching combat is less than 4 damage(even less with mortifier) isn't all that hot result. And even less if you take flails which is more flexible weapon
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