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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.


I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.

Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.

Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.

I see what you're saying, but don't entirely agree with the premise.

The way I see it, is that I don't really care about improving my Repentia's effectiveness against T4 and T3 infantry. They are already "sufficiently effective" to destroy a space marine section without difficulty at almost any squad size.

Because I'm particularly concerned about the ability of my Repentia to destroy vehicle-grade targets, particularly in following turns after suffering casualties. The difference in effect is sufficiently drastic that an imagifier buffed squad requires 1 or 2 fewer repentia to destroy a vehicle depending on how sure you want to be of target destruction


Basically, if you only really need the buff character for one thing because you're already really good at something else, a significant increased to that one thing that comprises part of your primary mission is worth more than a lower increase with marginal increases in effectiveness against other targets.

The problem still ends up being that the difference between imagifier and preacher buffs for repentia ends up being a little over 2 wounds per squad on average against T7 and T6(imagifier's favor) while being 9 wounds per squad against T4 and T5 and 4.4 wounds per squad on T8(preachers favor). That means that over the course of a game, you would have to hit ONLY rhinos and stormspeeder equivalents for the imagifier to be better. If you had to hit one of the new primaris hover tanks, an exocrine, a squad of bikes, a squad of terminators, a squad of eradicators, a squad of skorpechs, a land raider, a squad of plague marines, a squad of regular marines, a knight, etc; the priest is better.

And honestly, with the changes to Meltas, you shouldn't really be using repentia to go after T6 and T7 targets anymore, they're much more efficient at decimating T5 and lower or using Tear them Down to kill T8 when a squad of MM rets or even a couple basic battle sister squads with MMs can pop 2+ rhinos per turn fairly reliably.

Also, with Eradicators kicking around the only people bringing significant numbers of T7 are...us in bloody rose transport lists. Most vehicles are on the shelf until eradicators take a nerf.

It depends on what T5 or lower models you're going against. Gravis or standard primaris dudes? Sure. 30 orks? Definitely not.

I'd rather use arcos for the anti infantry role, repentias are too squishy to rely to their max potential, they'll likely lose some models on the way and that buff from the Imagifier comes handy. Not to mention that the +1S also could affect other units like a Canoness, Celestine, Celestians or Zephyrims.

You may need both the +1S and Tear The Down to kill some armored unit.

Bringing tons of meltas is also not realistic. A squad of Retributors vanishes after one turn of shooting and Immolators aren't as effective. There's also the cost of the boxes to consider, just to have the basic 4 multimeltas on a single squad you need two boxes of Retributors, which are quite expensive. I honestly don't think I'll going to see more than 2-4 multimeltas in the majority of sisters lists around here.

Eradicators are a nemesis for vehicles but many armies will keep using vehicles, because it would still be the best option. Harlequins, Drukhari, Orks, etc all have light vehicles or monsters with T6 or T7 and access to invulns, among their best units, which are definitely going to show up regardless of the Eradicators' threat.

I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.

 Blackie wrote:
It depends on what T5 or lower models you're going against. Gravis or standard primaris dudes? Sure. 30 orks? Definitely not.

I'd rather use arcos for the anti infantry role, repentias are too squishy to rely to their max potential, they'll likely lose some models on the way and that buff from the Imagifier comes handy. Not to mention that the +1S also could affect other units like a Canoness, Celestine, Celestians or Zephyrims.

You may need both the +1S and Tear The Down to kill some armored unit.

Bringing tons of meltas is also not realistic. A squad of Retributors vanishes after one turn of shooting and Immolators aren't as effective. There's also the cost of the boxes to consider, just to have the basic 4 multimeltas on a single squad you need two boxes of Retributors, which are quite expensive. I honestly don't think I'll going to see more than 2-4 multimeltas in the majority of sisters lists around here.

Eradicators are a nemesis for vehicles but many armies will keep using vehicles, because it would still be the best option. Harlequins, Drukhari, Orks, etc all have light vehicles or monsters with T6 or T7 and access to invulns, among their best units, which are definitely going to show up regardless of the Eradicators' threat.

A squad of repentia kill what...18 Boyz on the charge with a preacher? It's not an ideal target to go after, but it's one that might be necessary depending on the matchup/your opponent's actions; and when you're in a situation where you have no choice but to go in on a 30 drop of boyz, you'll be happy you passed on +1S for +1 attack.

Arcos are the same price as repentia and honestly, due to their low rend, end up doing the same or less damage as repentia against even the targets they want to go after. Repentia are just flat out better than arcos unless you're not running BR, not that arcos are bad, just that repentia are hilariously good. Neither unit has relevant durability. Even with 2 wounds it takes nothing to wipe out a unit of arcos.

Also, if you are using arcos(which again, are fine, just not as good as BR repentia), priests are WAY better because arcos ALSO benefit from them.

Rets are pretty damn sticky in any list that uses Indomitable belief and ESPECIALLY lists that mix in VH. Even when built as minimum they're HILARIOUSLY effective strategic reserve units, able to reliably wipe out pretty much any 2 no-invul vehicles on the drop. Even just slapping some on BSS squads is pretty deadly. Price is irrelevant if you're talking competitive theory. Tournament players will either fork over the cash or find a creative way around modeling issues. I plan on running at least 7-8 MM in my BR lists, with up to 12-16 being a possibility depending on how many Mortifiers I plan on running.

And while that's certainly true, that some armies will continue to use their T6 and T7 vehicles, a priest buffed unit of 9 repentia kills just about every single one of those units outright, exactly the same as an imagifier buffed unit. In fact, against a Ravager, it's almost exactly the same damage(18).

In the end I would recommend taking BOTH buffs and strategically applying them to where they are most useful. If you're running bloody rose there really isn't a reason not to considering how insanely beneficial both +1 attack and +1S are to ALL BR units. BUT if you have to take only one, the priest is more flexible and helps insulate against sub-optimal situations better.

Ancible wrote:
I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.

You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.

I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.

ERJAK wrote:

The problem still ends up being that the difference between imagifier and preacher buffs for repentia ends up being a little over 2 wounds per squad on average against T7 and T6(imagifier's favor) while being 9 wounds per squad against T4 and T5 and 4.4 wounds per squad on T8(preachers favor). That means that over the course of a game, you would have to hit ONLY rhinos and stormspeeder equivalents for the imagifier to be better. If you had to hit one of the new primaris hover tanks, an exocrine, a squad of bikes, a squad of terminators, a squad of eradicators, a squad of skorpechs, a land raider, a squad of plague marines, a squad of regular marines, a knight, etc; the priest is better.

And honestly, with the changes to Meltas, you shouldn't really be using repentia to go after T6 and T7 targets anymore, they're much more efficient at decimating T5 and lower or using Tear them Down to kill T8 when a squad of MM rets or even a couple basic battle sister squads with MMs can pop 2+ rhinos per turn fairly reliably.

Also, with Eradicators kicking around the only people bringing significant numbers of T7 are...us in bloody rose transport lists. Most vehicles are on the shelf until eradicators take a nerf.

This is where and why I disagree with you.

It doesn't matter if a preacher adds more wounds per turn against a MEQ target, because the MEQ target is already dead 8 times out of 10. Any damage beyond 5x2 is meaningless.

An Imagifer buffed squad requires a strength of 7 to have an 80% chance of destroying a space marine squad.
A Priest buffed squad requires a strength of 6 to have an 80% chance of destroying a space marine squad.


and, as presented before:
An Imagifer buffed squad requires a strength of 8 to have an 80% chance of destroying a rhino-like target, or 16 for destroying a dreadnought-like target
A Priest buffed squad requires a strength of 10 to have an 80% chance of destroying a rhino-like target, or 20 for destroying a dreadnought-like target


So basically, the way I see it, is that the priest gives me a buff against units I don't need a buff against, because I'm already good at it. So I don't need him.

Right now, my list doesn't have a lot of AT power outside the Repentia, mostly because it hasn't reacted to the melta-buff yet, and I'm already starting to see a proliferation of dreadnoughts which are T7. Obviously, the answer to dreadnoughts is MMRets & Exorcists, not hit-it-with-Repentia, but if I don't want to introduce Eradicator-targets back into my list that won't reliably kill a dreadnought anyway, it's going to be a job for the Repentia. If I decide I don't want to have an Imagifier, which I might anyway if I switch into AS Mech Infantry + BR Assault like I'm thinking of doing, I'm not particularly inclined to replace her with a priest unless I go in on Morts or Arcos.


I might just decide to deal with the problem by bringing enough vehicles that it doesn't matter that the Eradicators kill three, because they can only kill three. Particularly because I like tanks, and have a lot of them ready anyway to make a list out of, and am more than a little tired of the general mass melee trend.



I am not a fan of MM Rets. They're very expensive at 140 for a minimum unit or 200 for a full unit, and basically have no surviability. The only way to make them last at all is to be VH and have a tale of the stoic imagifier with them, other wise bolt rifles just erase them. And even then, they're a plasgun magnet and plasguns are still everywhere because of the Marine meta. I would still take an Exorcist over them, because an Exorcist is at least T8 W12 R48"; even if it doesn't get the +2 damage in half range.

My MM Rets just comes in out of Reserves or start behind obscuring. But now that their MM's are 2 shots, thats a bonus 2 more shots compare to 1 more shot with each Cherub, thats 4 shots now. Is 12 MM shots worth it to you as a 1 hit wonder for the points? To me yes, b.c now I have 1 unit that can deal with any 1 tank/MC for the most part at range. It also forces them to think where they want those units.

The only problem is Eradicators might change the meta completely to no MC/Tanks/Large units. And I might never need to take them anymore b.c of them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ancible wrote:
I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.

You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.

I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.

You need to commit to them being in a castle to ensure they all have rerolls, which is really easy to avoid on tables with adequate terrain. That's also pretty easy to see telegraphed

Contrary to popular belief, Eradicators are not invincible or impossible to counter.

Ancible wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ancible wrote:
I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.

You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.

I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.

You need to commit to them being in a castle to ensure they all have rerolls, which is really easy to avoid on tables with adequate terrain. That's also pretty easy to see telegraphed

Contrary to popular belief, Eradicators are not invincible or impossible to counter.

Never said they are invincible or impossible. Said they might change the norms.

Erads don't need re-rolls. I put mine wherever I need them to kill what I need to.

MM Rets can do an off-brand Eradicator impression, but I think the T3 vs. T5 and much higher cost really hurts them. T5 Erads don't die easily to regular rifle fire, were as T3 Rets die very fast, making Erads also draw more and a higher grade of fire than Rets do. In addition, the rate of degradation is either much lower for Erads, or to have a similar rate, the Rets have to cost about 1.5 times as much.

Finally, while I acknowledge that Rets can be a off-brand Erad squad and that they're still very dangerous in that role, copycatting Space Marines doesn't feel like a recipe for victory to me; because anybody out there who would expect to beat a Space Marine list wouldn't really have a hard time with you, and everybody is tailoring for anti-marine.

I don't try to copy cat them at all, i used them as a high threat unit to force them to change how they play.

Eradicators can be spammed for cheap and even use to shoot infantry in a pinch b.c of how effective they are, 18 of them still kills something like 25 gants before melee.

ERJAK wrote:
Price is irrelevant if you're talking competitive theory. Tournament players will either fork over the cash or find a creative way around modeling issues.

Well competitive gaming, and I mean tournament level, is only a fraction of the game, actually a tiny part of it.

And it's not completely irrelevant in the tournament scene as well. One of the orks best unit, if not the very best unit points and meta wise (it's the perfect anti gravis weapon) is the Smasha Gun and yet no list that placed high in tournaments in 9th edition so far had a single one of them despite they match very well with any sort of list, while even mediocre vehicles showed up in those winning lists. Being forcing to pay 50$ for a 40ppm model has an impact, even in tournament environments.

For the same reson I don't expect tons of multimelta retributors to be meta like eradicators, which will certainly show up frequently also in casual and semi-competitive games.

 Blackie wrote:
And it's not completely irrelevant in the tournament scene as well. One of the orks best unit, if not the very best unit points and meta wise (it's the perfect anti gravis weapon) is the Smasha Gun and yet no list that placed high in tournaments in 9th edition so far had a single one of them despite they match very well with any sort of list, while even mediocre vehicles showed up in those winning lists. Being forcing to pay 50$ for a 40ppm model has an impact, even in tournament environments.

For the same reson I don't expect tons of multimelta retributors to be meta like eradicators, which will certainly show up frequently also in casual and semi-competitive games.

There's other reasons than money cost for smasha gun since there's been multiple 18 smasha gun armies in tournaments during 8e. Where did all those models go? (besides orks are known for scratch building).

More likely due to them bleeding vp's(opponent is 100% quaranteed 15 vp) while being slow and not very good on objective game which is what 9e is about. 9e isn't about killing stuff only anymore. ITC's "gunlines ahoy" scenario pack died with 9e.

How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?

 AesSedai wrote:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?

We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?

We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.

How do seraphim do damage in the movement phase? Deadly descent?

 AesSedai wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?

We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.

How do seraphim do damage in the movement phase? Deadly descent?

Yes, I think that is what they were referencing.

Yes Deadly decent allows 4 inferno shots and a plasma (if you take on your superior which you should) plus all the AP-1 bolt pistols (if you are running BR which you should). Then repeat in the shooting phase.

Yes, as it is still in the movement phase. Sure you need the room to DS and do that, but we are able to kill him in 1 turn.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was hoping for!

Taking a break from days crunching only to see that GW has posted the ToC for IA...


And the Repressor isn't among the listed units, and will be Legends-only.

Taikishi wrote:
Taking a break from days crunching only to see that GW has posted the ToC for IA...


And the Repressor isn't among the listed units, and will be Legends-only.

This was kind of expected back when the MFM released with the latest CA and it was missing a points value iirc.

Not to mention it hasn't been sold for years and years.

Edit:nvm I see it now, my bad. Not sure how I missed that the first time.

Why would the repressor go to legends? That's a gw thing.. Is there a single fw legend?

Not that I'm saying it shouldn't. But lord arkos, zufor etc. They aren't either.

EDIT- nevermind I saw the statement. Legends it is.

So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.

Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes, as it is still in the movement phase. Sure you need the room to DS and do that, but we are able to kill him in 1 turn.

Plus even if not in 1 turn...it's 350 pts. It struggles to make it's worth vs sisters in even 2 turns. Sisters is one of the armies that have fairly little to worry about that. Just don't feed him your exorcists and you are golden. (and you literally need to feed them to it to lose them...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
Why would the repressor go to legends? That's a gw thing.. Is there a single fw legend?

Not that I'm saying it shouldn't. But lord arkos, zufor etc. They aren't either.

EDIT- nevermind I saw the statement. Legends it is.

There wasn't before for FW because there was only index for FW units. Legends are for units from index that does not go to post-index book. Unsurprisingly thus for FW it comes when index gets replaced.

This was predictable for almost a year

kiron wrote:
So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.

Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs

Retributors 5 or 10 man won't last after a single round of being shot at. Although I like going to 6 man for the banner extra miracle die. I am leaning more towards small units as even the extra fodder guys don't offer much except add more points. This is such a high priority target that adding extra bodies isn't really that helpful at T3 1W and it's much harder to hide if it's too large. They are a one an done unit I'm finding but you may see different results. I'd rather keep the units small to hide or drop in for their one shot deal and then die. I've even looked at going cheaper with 2 HB and 2 MM as the cherubs add 2 extra MM anyway so saves you some points and still gives 8 MM shots.

Curious about other heavy options as well. I'm leaning more towards exorcists in my BR to have more vehicle presence. So 2 EXO and a small ret squad to drop in. While the repentia and celestians move up. What do you all think on the heavy options. Outside of maxing out mortifiers of course.

skycapt44 wrote:

kiron wrote:
So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.

Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs

Retributors 5 or 10 man won't last after a single round of being shot at. Although I like going to 6 man for the banner extra miracle die. I am leaning more towards small units as even the extra fodder guys don't offer much except add more points. This is such a high priority target that adding extra bodies isn't really that helpful at T3 1W and it's much harder to hide if it's too large. They are a one an done unit I'm finding but you may see different results. I'd rather keep the units small to hide or drop in for their one shot deal and then die. I've even looked at going cheaper with 2 HB and 2 MM as the cherubs add 2 extra MM anyway so saves you some points and still gives 8 MM shots.

Curious about other heavy options as well. I'm leaning more towards exorcists in my BR to have more vehicle presence. So 2 EXO and a small ret squad to drop in. While the repentia and celestians move up. What do you all think on the heavy options. Outside of maxing out mortifiers of course.

Retributors are okay if you keep them within the 4++ or 5++ bubble with ignore AP1 banner in range. There isn't much mass fire that can kill a whole squad that quick. I find them more resilient than an exorcist. Given the amount of eradicators running around, exorcist don't even survive a volley (average 16 shots all doing D6 damage). If they are shooting my retributors then my repentia are safe. An exorcist needs a triumph to babysit it to improve its defence so it can turn those 5 miracle dice into saves.

I just noticed that it seems to be posdible to use "heroine in the making" on Ephrael stern, since it's only restricted for celestine, junith and triumph, not for all named characters... since she lacks the order keyword, she can't buff other units, but I think the cc trait could work quite well...

Bossdoc wrote:
I just noticed that it seems to be posdible to use "heroine in the making" on Ephrael stern, since it's only restricted for celestine, junith and triumph, not for all named characters... since she lacks the order keyword, she can't buff other units, but I think the cc trait could work quite well...

I think they faq'd that away.