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Taikishi wrote:
I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.

Is it that hard? Against T7, Holy Trinity improves the mean damage dealt by 1.25, against T8 by 1.33.

An extra meltagun improves the expected damage by (# of weapons + 1)/(# of weapons), which for a unit of 4 meltaguns works out to be 1.25, for a unit of 3 meltaguns works out to be 1.33, for a unit of 2 meltaguns works out to be 1.5, and for a unit of 1 meltagun works out to be 2.

The only time Holy Trinity works out better than just buying an extra meltagun is if the unit was putting more than 4 melta shots downrange before you bought the flamer/extra meltagun. So it's exclusively more efficient on Retributors with Multimeltas



If you care about bolters or flamers, then it's 1.25 against T3, 1.33 against T4, and 1.5 against T5, and the same math applies

 Commitz wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.

I've not run the numbers but wouldn't holy trinity actually have the most application in tackling transhuman? Considering it modifies our wound rolls, by my reckoning it effectively means you can still wound on a 3+ if you use it.

That use aside it does seem a bit lacklustre still. Blessed Bolt dominions are quite a bargain still, and more effective than any holy trinity combo, and Multi Meltas don't seem to need much help if you pop storm of retribution on them.

Speaking of, Storm of Retribution retributors can do some filthy damage numbers if they get within 18" before even factoring in miracle dice.

WITH miracle dice they can guarantee kill a knight with 3 failed saves (assuming you have access to 3 5+ miracle dice and the triumph.) Which is a combo I want to do do rather desperately.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.

Is it that hard? Against T7, Holy Trinity improves the mean damage dealt by 1.25, against T8 by 1.33.

An extra meltagun improves the expected damage by (# of weapons + 1)/(# of weapons), which for a unit of 4 meltaguns works out to be 1.25, for a unit of 3 meltaguns works out to be 1.33, for a unit of 2 meltaguns works out to be 1.5, and for a unit of 1 meltagun works out to be 2.

The only time Holy Trinity works out better than just buying an extra meltagun is if the unit was putting more than 4 melta shots downrange before you bought the flamer/extra meltagun. So it's exclusively more efficient on Retributors with Multimeltas



If you care about bolters or flamers, then it's 1.25 against T3, 1.33 against T4, and 1.5 against T5, and the same math applies

You misunderstand. This isn't just finding the averages; I'm simulating 5-figure squads and trying to find their normal distributions and the probability of damage ranges. I also have no special software to automate this, so I'm having to do a lot of legwork by hand, which means going back and correcting errors from typos as well, then running the data again.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity

It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.

Lemondish wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity

It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.

Wait, really? That's definitely something.
I mean, I feel like Primaris will still be the go-to Marine Infantry/Bikes, but it'll certainly help against things like Thunderwolves and other Firstborn specialists (except for DA Inner Cricle since they have the Transhuman effect built in)

Lemondish wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity

It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.

And anything with inner circle, all the time.

ERJAK wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity

It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.

And anything with inner circle, all the time.

Yeah, that is true too.

But I went up against one of those armies this weekend. They may be tough to take down, but they really do put a lot of faith in a small number of models.

Any recent experiences with arco flaggelants? I dig their models and their rules seem really solid. Are they worth including in addition to 2-3 units of repentia and if so how would you prefer to run them?

dominuschao wrote:
Any recent experiences with arco flaggelants? I dig their models and their rules seem really solid. Are they worth including in addition to 2-3 units of repentia and if so how would you prefer to run them?

More Repentia are generally favoured by BR armies over Arcos, but I run 'em.

I've run them as a cheap, min squads. But I'm thinking that it's worth having a few extra bodies now

Cool thats what I was thinking. 2-3 units of 8 repentia- mechanized. And then maybe some cheap flagellants running around or in reserves to cause trouble. A larger squad looks to be decent too.

I'd probably have the Arcos mechanized and reserve in one or 2 squads of Repentia, as they can make the 9 inch charge

Dammit that's a good point. But that shifts the focus more to the flagellants then I'd like. Was thinking along the lines of a foot slogging option along with a unit of mortifiers and a larger one of penitent engines. Something like this..

2x8 repentia, rhinos
1x8 repentia, strategic reserves
3 mortifiers, flex deployment
4 penitent engines, central deployment
X flagellents, slogging. Ranging from multiple msu to full unit(s).

This backed up.by scions as a reactive force to drop in by DS or Valkyrie for anti tank or to deliver mortal wound shots.

dominuschao wrote:
Dammit that's a good point. But that shifts the focus more to the flagellants then I'd like. Was thinking along the lines of a foot slogging option along with a unit of mortifiers and a larger one of penitent engines. Something like this..

2x8 repentia, rhinos
1x8 repentia, strategic reserves
3 mortifiers, flex deployment
4 penitent engines, central deployment
X flagellents, slogging. Ranging from multiple msu to full unit(s).

This backed up.by scions as a reactive force to drop in by DS or Valkyrie for anti tank or to deliver mortal wound shots.

That's a very melee/CQC heavy list...

Foot Flagellants are fine, but they become reactive units without the speed of a transport. It's something you'll have to experiment with to find a balance. Maybe make one of the Repentia squads smaller and share their ride? Or a MM Immolator with a couple of Arcos to make sure it doesn't get bogged down in GEqs?

Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

dominuschao wrote:
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

Repentia Superior are nice to have, but are often the first thing I cut, SoF increase is also nice to have but imo, unnecessary. Imagifiers are good but 7 strength isn't as good as 8 was. Priestly types are always welcome in a melee list and would probably be my priority for multiples.

Finally rebought my SoB army with all plastics! Still have a couple more boxes to go for extra units to have for alternative lists, but I'm excited to play sisters again.

dominuschao wrote:
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.


I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.

This is also a good candidate for the Heroine in the Making : Indomitable Belief combo.

Thanks for the insights its been helpful.

I definitely want to run celestine. She along with indomitable belief looks really strong for the repentia.

The main hang up right now is having my cake and eating it too so to speak.

So which detachment gets warlord- sisters or scions. If scions then sisters can go vanguard. (but I'll basically be throwing away my warlord each game due to the use of a tempest prime). I really want to limit power armoured units since I've played that out over the years.
Anyway if sisters have warlord then I need 2 patrols to almost fit what I want to run. And that leads me to..

miracle dice. Is this something I need to be focusing on actively generating (trait, reroll item etc) or just nice if I'm not warping my list to get them?

I'll post a list and link it if anyway is interested.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/793039.page#10957744

dominuschao wrote:
Thanks for the insights its been helpful.

I definitely want to run celestine. She along with indomitable belief looks really strong for the repentia.

The main hang up right now is having my cake and eating it too so to speak.

So which detachment gets warlord- sisters or scions. If scions then sisters can go vanguard. (but I'll basically be throwing away my warlord each game due to the use of a tempest prime). I really want to limit power armoured units since I've played that out over the years.
Anyway if sisters have warlord then I need 2 patrols to almost fit what I want to run. And that leads me to..

miracle dice. Is this something I need to be focusing on actively generating (trait, reroll item etc) or just nice if I'm not warping my list to get them?

I'll post a list and link it if anyway is interested.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/793039.page#10957744

With respect to Miracle Dice, yes and no.

You can only use 1 per phase. Technically, even using a 3 to make a melta autohit is better than rolling, but really you want your 1/phase to go to something like a damage dice or a critical save where it has more impact.

So really, you want strong miracle dice more than you need more miracle dice. Generating more Miracle Dice can help with this, since after all rolling 2 dice is better than rolling 1 with a optional re-roll, and thanks to having both stratagem-based outflow for weak dice as well as just having more phases than dice generated you'll still have use for them, but even then using 15 3's to make hits isn't going to have nearly the same impact on the game as making an 11" charge, rolling a 6 for a meltagun to kill a 6(8) wound target, or making that invulnerable save against a destroyer laser.

Repentia are also big consumers of my MD, so with multiple squads, I would suggest it worthwhile to invest in making tham better

Quick question. for miracle dice and charges, if I use 1 MD i roll 1 charge dice only then? Or do I need to use 2 MD?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Quick question. for miracle dice and charges, if I use 1 MD i roll 1 charge dice only then? Or do I need to use 2 MD?

You can choose to use one or more of the dice from your Miracle dice pool instead of making a dice roll for a model or unit.

Generally speaking, and in most cases, you want to use as many dice as is necessary to guarantee the charge. If you need to make a 7" charge, and you have a 6 in your pool, then you're free to use only that 6 and roll the other dice like normal. If you only have a 3 and a 4, you'll probably want to be using both.

I was just making sure I can use 1 and then roll 1 dice. Its just odd to me as GW normally hates double rolls like that to be split or rr 1 dice, etc..

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.


I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.

Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.

Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Played a game thursday with a buddy using space wolves primaris on foot (with guest star 2 proxied melta stormwhatever primaris landspeeders).

My list was Argent Shroud with 5 immolators with MM, 2 with 4SB combi plas, dominions, 1 with 4MM rets with 2 cherubs and a simulacrum, 1 with 4HF rets with 2 cherubs, 1 with 5 arcos and a priest, 3 HB Flail mortifiers, Celestine, and Rod of Office Canoness. Rounding out was 3 squads of Battle sisters with SB and HB.

First of all, the new MM profile is ridiculous. The double shots is of course huge but the +2 damage is surprisingly crazy powerful. It was a huge boost to both of our melta shots. The heavy bolter change was extremely nice against 2 wound space marines but wasn't a huge deal overall.

I got first turn, charged forward with all the immos and disembarked the multimelta rets and start blasting. Had 3 outriders in melta range of the Rets and with Storm of Fire, they were immediately obliterated. I also killed a good chuck of his intercessors and couple of his aggressors. I DID forget to disembark my canoness AND to get my armorium cherub shots in so I missed out on quite a bit of damage but for the most part his ability to contest on his strong side was fairly crippled. Weak side he had one of the stormspeeders a squad of hellblasters and a squad of intercessors to my Celestine, 3 morties, and a immo with HF rets. Immo charged up and obliterated the speeder, with that gone nothing he had left could reasonable stand up to the morties without getting clobbered by celestine and the HF rets in return.

He made some traction in the later turns, eventually killing 4 out of 5 immolators(two auto explodes doing WORK), both squads of dominions and some other bits and bobs but the game ended 71-27 in my favor.

Secondaries were banners, engage, and assassinate, maxed banners and was only 3 short on engage but only scored 6 on assassinate due to only killing 2 of his 3 characters.

Mech Sisters are a solid choice again. The offensive power and mobility are excellent with the new profiles and Argent shroud. It is INCREDIBLY fragile though. If you don't go first you'd better have a 6 on your MD with a couple to spend on Moment of Grace or you'll be losing half of your vehicles per turn. Valorous heart wouldn't really help either due to the problem being Eradicators and other common high Ap D6 damage shooting.

ERJAK wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.

Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.

On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?

Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.


I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.

Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.

Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.

I see what you're saying, but don't entirely agree with the premise.

The way I see it, is that I don't really care about improving my Repentia's effectiveness against T4 and T3 infantry. They are already "sufficiently effective" to destroy a space marine section without difficulty at almost any squad size.

Because I'm particularly concerned about the ability of my Repentia to destroy vehicle-grade targets, particularly in following turns after suffering casualties. The difference in effect is sufficiently drastic that an imagifier buffed squad requires 1 or 2 fewer repentia to destroy a vehicle depending on how sure you want to be of target destruction


Basically, if you only really need the buff character for one thing because you're already really good at something else, a significant increased to that one thing that comprises part of your primary mission is worth more than a lower increase with marginal increases in effectiveness against other targets.

I ran some quick math and the two look pretty close. For bloody rose repentia, against t7 no invulns were looking at this for each single repentia:

1.5 damage if solo;
2 damage with a priest;
2.25 damage with an imagifier;
4 damage within range of both;
5 damage with both and tear them down.
5.83 with everything plus repentia superior.

Thats per model.The imagifier can be replicated once by tear them down the priest cannot. Looking at this it seems good to have both with the imagifier being less mandatory. That said throwing some dice around I think I'd want both since we may want more than one unit that isn't fishing for 5s.

dominuschao wrote:
I ran some quick math and the two look pretty close. For bloody rose repentia, against t7 no invulns were looking at this for each single repentia:

1.5 damage if solo;
2 damage with a priest;
2.25 damage with an imagifier;
4 damage within range of both;
5 damage with both and tear them down.
5.83 with everything plus repentia superior.

Thats per model.The imagifier can be replicated once by tear them down the priest cannot. Looking at this it seems good to have both with the imagifier being less mandatory. That said throwing some dice around I think I'd want both since we may want more than one unit that isn't fishing for 5s.

Against a T7 Sv3+ target:
The mean unsupported damage is 1.25 damage assessed per repentia with a standard deviation of 1.15.
The mean supported damage with a priest is 1.67 damage assessed per repentia with a standard deviation of 1.21.
The mean supported damage with an imagifier is 1.875 damage assessed per repential with a standard deviation of 1.40.

In order to have a generally acceptable 80% chance of destroying a average tank target, 8 imagifier supported repentia are required, 10 priest supported repentia are required, and 13 unsupported repentia.


You're free to pick either; I'll probably pick Imagifier over Priest but you're free to chose the opposite based on your needs. That said, I wouldn't take all of them. You don't really want to trend into the overkill region, that's inefficient.

with GW showing that power armor = +1 wound for marines (as the scout sergeant who is a full marine but not in power armor is 1 wound) do we think sisters are going to go up to 2 wounds each?

Personally I hope we stay at 1 wound but would that drastically change anything for our army? despite obviously the innevitable point increase that would hinder us in a world of so many d2+ weapons. (Repentia would stay at 1 wound)

 warmaster21 wrote:
with GW showing that power armor = +1 wound for marines (as the scout sergeant who is a full marine but not in power armor is 1 wound) do we think sisters are going to go up to 2 wounds each?

Personally I hope we stay at 1 wound but would that drastically change anything for our army? despite obviously the innevitable point increase that would hinder us in a world of so many d2+ weapons. (Repentia would stay at 1 wound)

Yeah, going to W2 would f*** everything up.

Also, GW isn't going to give Sisters a bonus wound, they said it's for Marines and the scout sergeant is almost certianly just an anomaly.