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the_scotsman wrote:
I think it's not too controversial to say that Broccoli is kind of not great no matter what you do to it

Pfft. I quite like broccoli, especially steamed with a little tiny touch of butter and garlic salt.

I also like it with cheese but of course if you're doing that, I feel like you're defeating the point of eating broccoli to begin with. I personally just steam it in the bag.

 Ouze wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think it's not too controversial to say that Broccoli is kind of not great no matter what you do to it

Pfft. I quite like broccoli, especially steamed with a little tiny touch of butter and garlic salt.

I also like it with cheese but of course if you're doing that, I feel like you're defeating the point of eating broccoli to begin with. I personally just steam it in the bag.

Brocoli and cheese. A match made in heaven!

Barely cooked or sliced thin, raw over cheese on toast, lots of salt...yum!

I love broccoli steamed, microwaved, or in soup, but definitely cooked in some manner. Cauliflower and spinach both taste okay raw, great steamed, but are even better when disappearing into other meals. I find that Brussels sprouts taste better when they are slightly burned.

Broccoli for me is just boiled for about 2 minutes (make sure to add enough canola oil to it, most people just dunk it and overcook it without oil which is why it tastes so terrible to them) and lightly sprinkle salt and its good to go for me. Simple and tasty.

I’m also team broccoli, but I think it’s easy to overcook it. One thing I like to do is take it and cauliflower and carrots (usually a frozen mix) and throw it in a blender to get coarse crumbles, and use it to replace some of the meat in chili with beans.

 d-usa wrote:
I’m also team broccoli, but I think it’s easy to overcook it. One thing I like to do is take it and cauliflower and carrots (usually a frozen mix) and throw it in a blender to get coarse crumbles, and use it to replace some of the meat in chili with beans.

That's a great idea.

Chin-chin.

Huh. I might try that sometime. The chili recipe I made is already full of veggies though, and I don't like super blended up non-chunky chilis as much.

Did a coconut curry last night. Coconut milk, green curry paste, and garam masala as the base for the sauce, diced potatoes, pearl onions, sliced portabello muchrooms, carrots and celery for the veggies. Served over rice, perfect meal to make tons of and save for good reheated lunches at work.

Honestly, that's been the nicest part of this whole experiment for me is how much better my from home lunches have been. Half the meals I've made I can just make more of and then take them in for 2-3 days, so I haven't had to make myself sandwiches or eat boring turkey sandwiches for lunch.

Since it was brought up earlier about the ethics of farming and a vegan/plant based diet, I thought this article about the almond milk industry killing off bee populations was apt.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe

A recent survey of commercial beekeepers showed that 50 billion bees – more than seven times the world’s human population – were wiped out in a few months during winter 2018-19. This is more than one-third of commercial US bee colonies, the highest number since the annual survey started in the mid-2000s.

Beekeepers attributed the high mortality rate to pesticide exposure, diseases from parasites and habitat loss. However, environmentalists and organic beekeepers maintain that the real culprit is something more systemic: America’s reliance on industrial agriculture methods, especially those used by the almond industry, which demands a large-scale mechanization of one of nature’s most delicate natural processes.

You were wrong.

Production of almond milk is a live issue and I personally do not know a single vegan/PB-person who is unaware of the fact that it is entirely problematic or who use or promote it. It's very similar to how most carnists don't promote or use veal, or foie gras, and how neither of those things are an argument against eating chicken.

What you've linked is an argument against industrial farming and wider capitalism in toto. It isn't an argument against vegan/PB diets.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You were wrong.

Production of almond milk is a live issue and I personally do not know a single vegan/PB-person who is unaware of the fact that it is entirely problematic or who use or promote it. It's very similar to how most carnists don't promote or use veal, or foie gras, and how neither of those things are an argument against eating chicken.

What you've linked is an argument against industrial farming and wider capitalism in toto. It isn't an argument against vegan/PB diets.

But what is pushing the industry? Pretty sure the almond industry didn't start taking off until the rise of vegan/pb diets

Your argument, your burden, matey.

A very quick comparison between the number of people who count themselves as vegan/PB and the amount of almond milk sold reveals that either the majority of people who buy it are not vegan/PB or that an awful lot of vegans/PB-people are super into Cleopatra LARPing.

Or that more research is required.

The primary reason for a collapse in bee populations is the overuse of neonicotinoid pesticides, which should just be outright banned. If those pesticides are used in the farming of almonds, then I can see that contributing, but they are used in all intensive crop farming.

However. From a land use point of view, plants are ALWAYS going to be more efficient and use less land per unit of nutritional value than meat. This is simple thermodynamics and not anything that can be argued against. There is no way to feed 7 billion plus humans without environmental costs, but feeding them all with meat heavy diets will be utterly catastrophic.

 Ustrello wrote:

But what is pushing the industry? Pretty sure the almond industry didn't start taking off until the rise of vegan/pb diets

There have been a lot of dietary shifts in the same period of time. Many people who have moved to dairy alternatives didn't do so because they took up vegetarianism. Lactose intolerance or sensitivity, and the emergence of some studies suggesting dairy milk is actually hindering calcium intake being the common reasons.

Brussel sprouts, leeks, garlic, olive oil, salt and balsamic vinegar sautéed in a pan. You’re all welcome. Also, all the veggies being mentioned getting roasted...forgot to mention parsnips. I could eat parsnips at every meal. Delicious roasted, grilled, pan fried, in soups, etc. It doesn’t matter what they go in, they’re amazing.

I have zero intention of going full vegan ever. But I can absolutely enjoy a meal with no meat or animal involvement. I used to make an occasional lentil stew that used veggie broth, curry spices, potatoes, carrots and onions and it got wrecked every time I made it because it was so flavorful; and even my carnivore roommate at the time loved it.

Already doing a bit of a "diet" now which would make going vegan somewhat difficult:

https://www.cookinglight.com/eating-smart/nutrition-101/the-obesity-code-review

So my eating leans a bit toward a Keto-diet type method, veggies I lean on for more "variety" but I always worked towards the Jamie Oliver methods of cooking to keep it interesting.

My country background tends to make me think "It is not a meal without dead animal on my plate!".

BUT how vegan do you want people to go?
As listed previously, cheese is not a vegetable product and anything dairy creates a market for veal (or calves wastefully killed otherwise) so that is a consideration.

I will have to give this a pass for now but hey, I fast every other day so I am using half the food I used to so it is more sustainable than it was!

 Da Boss wrote:
The primary reason for a collapse in bee populations is the overuse of neonicotinoid pesticides, which should just be outright banned. If those pesticides are used in the farming of almonds, then I can see that contributing, but they are used in all intensive crop farming.

However. From a land use point of view, plants are ALWAYS going to be more efficient and use less land per unit of nutritional value than meat. This is simple thermodynamics and not anything that can be argued against. There is no way to feed 7 billion plus humans without environmental costs, but feeding them all with meat heavy diets will be utterly catastrophic.

...

So despite ridiculing my earlier point you're now re-iterating it and using it as an argument for your own side. Good job.

For the record, I'm not arguing for meat heavy diets.

Agree fully on the pesticides though.

You mean the point about overpopulation? I mean, yeah, I guess there are a lot of humans. But...like what do you want to do about it? My solution would be improving everyones standard of living and giving women more rights and particularly control over their bodies internationally, so that birth rates decline.

However, if along with that development everyone is eating as much meat as an American it is gonna be a disaster.

The other "solutions" to overpopulation involve grotesque crimes against humanity or restrictions on the most fundamental of instincts, so I acknowledge the problem but am trying to propose a way forward that can allow us to deal with it while preserving as much of the natural world as we can.

Yeah, it's a knotty problem, allright.
Declining birthrates is the way to go, but it has to be across the board, or we get the current situation where places that do have one get overrun with migrants, thereby undoing the decrease while leaving the places they left behind continuing to grow in population at the same rate - net effect zero.

And the problem with everyone going vegan still stands as long as the underlying problem is overpopulation - at best it will buy us some time, but it's still treating a symptom rather than the disease

Yeah, I definitely think we should be working hard to undo the legacy of colonialism and bring everyone up to a decent standard of living as a priority, and especially prioritising womens reproductive freedom. But while we are doing that, eating less meat is a good idea anyway.

Overpopulation is an absolute myth, dreamed up by people who want to restrict how many non-white people are born.

The Earth at current capacity can feed 10bn people. It doesn't, because capitalism does not allocate the resources efficiently.

There is no overpopulation. It's just a socially-acceptable way to say that you think there's too many foreigners.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT - How vegan do I personally want everyone to be? In my ideal world, everybody would be an ethical vegan, so very vegan indeed.

I agree that overpopulation is often a cover for racism. And I agree that any limiting of human reproductive rights, or worse methods tend to be racially biased (and biased by class).

But humans are definitely ecologically exceptional in how many of us there are on the planet, and we are defying a lot of princples of ecology by expending resoueces at a huge rate.

10 billion is what we can support, yeah, but at an ecological cost. We will probably get there, but hopefully not too much higher than that.

Not using 12lbs of grain to produce 1lb of beef would probably help quite a lot.

Well yeah mate, I have been making that point throughout the thread.

Ayuh.

I say it to reinforce your point, rather than presenting it as new information.

Grand, sorry for my exasperated tone.

Nyet problem.

Text-based communication is necessarily limited and uncertain.

Exception,first you need land that can have grain in the first place,which makes animal farming in some regions logical.

I think what is important is that we all can agree that brussel sprouts, aka the devils testicles, are a blight on humanity and to be avoided at all costs.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Exception,first you need land that can have grain in the first place,which makes animal farming in some regions logical.

It still makes little sense to use 12lbs of human food to produce 1lb of human food.

"More than half the U.S. grain and nearly 40 percent of world grain is being fed to livestock rather than being consumed directly by humans,"

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

Animal agriculture is necessarily inefficient. We would indisputably be in a better position environmentally and ecologically now and in the future and better poised for future population growth if it was abandoned entirely in favour of plant agriculture.

EDIT - And yes, sprouts are [Expletive Deleted] horrible little things.

 Ahtman wrote:
I think what is important is that we all can agree that brussel sprouts, aka the devils testicles, are a blight on humanity and to be avoided at all costs.

"the devil's testicles" and brussells sprouts are two different things.

AVOCADO is the testicle (it even comes from the word for it). Nothing can save this disappointing green mushy testicle.

OTOH, a little olive oil, some bacon, some sauteeing ... sprouts are delish. And bear grylls is still a wuss.