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 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
honestly, I don't care and neither should you. Why should we care about company's bottom line?

Cause a company operating below their bottom line fast ends up a company no longer producing products we can buy. Heck the Spartan Games fans have been waiting YEARS to get Dystopian Wars and such back after they folded and Warcradle picked up what was left (in what I gather was not a smooth hand over since Spartan went fully to the wall with the administrators). If fans have no concept of the bottom line and no respect for it and demand prices cheaper than is sane for the firm to produce then, well, we end up losing out.

Don't care. Not my business as a consumer to care for the company. If they can't figure out a way to provide goods at an acceptable price and stay in the black they are a bad company and deserve to close shop, that's how capitalism works.
Now, I know GW is in zero danger of closing shop, but i hate the "we should care what the bottom line of a corporation is" defense of any and all pricing decisions. Not our job, that's what the overpaid nurgle infestation they call CEOS are for.

I see is less of a defence and more of a simple explanation as to why sometimes prices don't seem to line up with our expectations.

The same happens in other areas. Eg you might spot a really simple change to a computer game that would improve the game; however the average user having no idea how coding works might not realise that what appears to be a very simple change, could be a complex series of changes behind the scenes. Thus why some "easy fixes" appear to take far longer to be put into effect by developers.



Again its more a case of the more you know the more you can appreciate or understand the reasoning behind what might appear unreasonable or odd choices that a company makes. It doesn't excuse the company making bad choices - heck its regularly argued that some of GW's internal policies do result in problems - eg how secrecy between departments results in strange situations as a result of a breakdown of communications (eg balancing changing a base size but it never getting through the packing and shipping).


It's by no means a defence, just an understanding. The great one's understanding the greater ones potential appreciation is; but also the greater the chance that valid arguments can be made when the company does make mistakes.

Locally people are pretty outraged at the price and the low effort release and threatening to buy Mantic giants - same size at 1/4 the price.

Store manager is banking on low sales triggering a 2-for-1 box soon ala the Knights "Renegade" box.

Not sure what they mean by low-effort. We've known that Giants was going to be a 1 model launch for a long long time now.

That said I wonder how many who are outraged are simply those looking to get a model and how many were properly going to start the army. My impression is those who love the concept and want it are annoyed but buying into it; whilst those who are more angry about it tend to be those who are more into model collecting sides of things; or who would only buy it if it was really cheap = ergo they might not have been customers even if the giants were £100 or £80 or whatever.

I don't see any problem talking about what potentially makes this kit so expensive and bottomline being one of the bulletpoints of the arguments.

Sure some don't care about but others do and debate it... its called a forum for a reason.

Besides it Don't see any of the arguments as defensive but more in line how can I justify to myself investing in this? Why did this got to be so expensive?

GW stock levels seem to always be on low side due to constant sold outs ( even before covid production issues) I do wonder if they don't intend to sell that many of these kits. They need to be clever about breaking points and when a X product no longer is in their interest to keep on constantly casting/packing and distributing. Seems like their production comes in waves of restocking but that the initial release is always short on product.

Lets see if giants sell out... I doubt they will XD

GW was hoping to resolve the stock issues this year. They got a new warhousing system setup and a new factory. It's really corona throwing up huge issues with industry and shipping which has basically prevented those things from taking effect and easing the supply issues. Especially for overseas customers where stocks rely on fewer big updates instead of a steady stream.

 NAVARRO wrote:

GW stock levels seem to always be on low side due to constant sold outs ( even before covid production issues) I do wonder if they don't intend to sell that many of these kits. They need to be clever about breaking points and when a X product no longer is in their interest to keep on constantly casting/packing and distributing. Seems like their production comes in waves of restocking but that the initial release is always short on product.

GW produces in Waves, if the initial Wave is gone they need wait for the next free slot in the production schedule
yet to reduce cost for storage the better you estimate the demand and the closer your first Wave production is the better

GW also calculates that the first Wave sales need to cover the whole cost, everything after that is just a bonus (same as movie studios calculate that the US Box Office need to cover the costs and the movie is considered a fail if not, even if the worldwide sales and non-cinema releases are many times the initial costs)

Therefore, the initial Wave will be enough models to cover the production costs and make profit, but not enough to have a big stock of models that just adds cost for nothing

If GW now expects low number of sales the first they do is to reduce production cost by changing the mold material from steel to aluminium
which is much cheaper but they are also worn out faster which is not a problem if you don't expect to make many models in the first place (this is what they do with limited Character releases)

 Overread wrote:
Not sure what they mean by low-effort. We've known that Giants was going to be a 1 model launch for a long long time now.

That said I wonder how many who are outraged are simply those looking to get a model and how many were properly going to start the army. My impression is those who love the concept and want it are annoyed but buying into it; whilst those who are more angry about it tend to be those who are more into model collecting sides of things; or who would only buy it if it was really cheap = ergo they might not have been customers even if the giants were £100 or £80 or whatever.

That's an easy enough question to answer for GW. Look at battletome sales vs gargant sales. I've seen a local guy literally order the SoB tome and cards and 3 Mantic giants today at the FLGS.

Mantic will make some serious money off this release methinks.

ready on taking bets which Giant is sold out first, Mantic or GW

Is there are good explainer for why GW's prices are so much higher than comparably complex Gunpla models?

I know whenever GW's pricing gets raised people love to jump to their defense citing the cost of amortizing the molds, R&D, etc. but those costs also apply to Gundam kits that have and equal or greater number of sprues, are more complex SKUs (more sprues to kit, more colors, etc.), but cost a quarter of the price of the SoB models.

Is it just a matter of Bandai being a larger company and they are able to avail themselves of a different scale of manufacturing? Is the audience that much bigger where the Gunpla community can drive sales even of niche kits to such levels that economies of scale work their magic? Is it just the tax of supporting the game system?

The Mantic Frost Giant does nothing for me.

Is there another giant they have that I'm missing?

Main reason is GW's costumers are willing to pay the price and want to play the GW games

there is no Game to sell Gunpla, so demand to buy a specific Kit
Hence if the kits cost more people just buy something else

also the scale model market (which Gunpla kind of belongs to) attracts different people and those have a different "feeling" for prices

no one is going to pay 60€ for a M4A1 Sherman unless it is a superior kit coming with all kind of fancy details
and no one would be using such a kit for gaming at all as there is no game that requires you to use that specific kit and other tank model would work

GW also is inside their own bubble
their Marketing is build around that "GW is the Hobby and there is nothing else"
While most people who buy Gundam models know what else is on the market, while most GW costumers think they are the only one and there is no one else doing similar products
(no matter if it is models, colours or terrain)

of course a difference is also that GW is producing in Europe while Bandai is in Asia, yet other manufacturer are producing in Europe as well and are not as expensive as GW

GW wants to sell a Premium Product and not just toys everyone can afford
they want to keep their closed environment of people willing to pay the premium price


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BuFFo wrote:
The Mantic Frost Giant does nothing for me.
Is there another giant they have that I'm missing?

The Frost Giant is the standard Giant with Resin upgrade Bits
https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/goblins/giant/

Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

Two hundred bucks for a single model is pretty absurd regardless of size. These things are very likely smaller than Archaon (definitely are from a bulk perspective) and somehow cost more? I can’t imagine these will sell particularly well.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Not sure what they mean by low-effort. We've known that Giants was going to be a 1 model launch for a long long time now.

That said I wonder how many who are outraged are simply those looking to get a model and how many were properly going to start the army. My impression is those who love the concept and want it are annoyed but buying into it; whilst those who are more angry about it tend to be those who are more into model collecting sides of things; or who would only buy it if it was really cheap = ergo they might not have been customers even if the giants were £100 or £80 or whatever.

That's an easy enough question to answer for GW. Look at battletome sales vs gargant sales. I've seen a local guy literally order the SoB tome and cards and 3 Mantic giants today at the FLGS.

I was really confused for a minute there what this had to do with the Sisters of Battle...

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

as is the scale model market, a reason why GW is slowly shifting torwards those as the market is bigger and people are more willing to pay more for less models (as they only buy 1 Box anyway) than the Wargaming crowd

 flaherty wrote:
Is there are good explainer for why GW's prices are so much higher than comparably complex Gunpla models?

I know whenever GW's pricing gets raised people love to jump to their defense citing the cost of amortizing the molds, R&D, etc. but those costs also apply to Gundam kits that have and equal or greater number of sprues, are more complex SKUs (more sprues to kit, more colors, etc.), but cost a quarter of the price of the SoB models.

Is it just a matter of Bandai being a larger company and they are able to avail themselves of a different scale of manufacturing? Is the audience that much bigger where the Gunpla community can drive sales even of niche kits to such levels that economies of scale work their magic? Is it just the tax of supporting the game system?

1. There aren't any comparably complex Gunpla models. They're all flat geometric panels.

2. There are a lot of people in Asia. Many of them like anime.

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

as is the scale model market, a reason why GW is slowly shifting torwards those as the market is bigger and people are more willing to pay more for less models (as they only buy 1 Box anyway) than the Wargaming crowd

How is GW shifting toward the scale model market?
I've seen them shift somewhat toward boardgames here and there, but broadly speaking I've not seen any shift from GW toward what one might consider closer to an airfix or similar kit. If anything GW is heading the other way with fewer detailed parts rather than more.

 AduroT wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Not sure what they mean by low-effort. We've known that Giants was going to be a 1 model launch for a long long time now.

That said I wonder how many who are outraged are simply those looking to get a model and how many were properly going to start the army. My impression is those who love the concept and want it are annoyed but buying into it; whilst those who are more angry about it tend to be those who are more into model collecting sides of things; or who would only buy it if it was really cheap = ergo they might not have been customers even if the giants were £100 or £80 or whatever.

That's an easy enough question to answer for GW. Look at battletome sales vs gargant sales. I've seen a local guy literally order the SoB tome and cards and 3 Mantic giants today at the FLGS.

I was really confused for a minute there what this had to do with the Sisters of Battle...

Same here maybe use SONs as a shorthand?

 kodos wrote:
while most GW costumers think they are the only one and there is no one else doing similar products

Any evidence for that?

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

Yeah, this. The gunpla crowd is vastly larger than wargamers as a whole which is in turn larger than GW wargamers and the AoS part of that is smaller again. Also, places like Mantic make sure to advertise to RPG groups as well, which is yet another huge target audience while GW barely advertises outside of it’s established customer base, leaving that to third party license holders.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

Yeah, this. The gunpla crowd is vastly larger than wargamers as a whole which is in turn larger than GW wargamers and the AoS part of that is smaller again. Also, places like Mantic make sure to advertise to RPG groups as well, which is yet another huge target audience while GW barely advertises outside of it’s established customer base, leaving that to third party license holders.

Another point is the Gunpla market produces in Asia whilst GW produces almost all its models in the UK so there's a significant difference in the likely labour and tax situation.

Interestingly though I'd note that GW likely has the better international distribution of its brand. At least whenever I look at a lot of the mecha style models and anime side of things I see a decentish amount makes it to the USA, but the EU market is very undersupplied - often not getting products (very annoying for anime when there's a USA translation but no UK/EU release)

I can see why GW doesn't go for the RP market as much since GW does and has done RPG games of its own. At the same time the DnD crowd is happy with things like prepainted models; mould lines; no paint; really cheap 2 colour paint jobs etc.. It's a LONG way for the "Hobby" that GW has built up into a core part of its brand and products over the years.

Limited edition armybook is still in stock in all major regions. Says something about the popularity of this release...

Oh deary me, GW gonna continue to have a healthy mix of the rich and the ignorant as a customer base...

Just go with Mantic, Heresy (been meaning to pick up Mucklegeet for a while) or just grab a Mag the Mighty figure from the ol' GOT collector's figure magazine run. I got one a few years ago direct from Eaglemoss for about £20. He stands 15cm tall.

They're not currently available from Eaglemoss, but you can still get him on eBay.

 CragHack wrote:
Limited edition armybook is still in stock in all major regions. Says something about the popularity of this release...

Not really. LE army books vary wildly as to how quickly they sell through. Part of that is if there are bundles including them, if the army is one that already has a built-in fanbase, etc etc etc.

 CragHack wrote:
Limited edition armybook is still in stock in all major regions. Says something about the popularity of this release...

Not really - brand new armies haven't sold particularly powerfully on limited editions in general. GW's limited editions are just a slightly different cover and a book mark tassle. It's not really a lot for double the price so they don't tend to sell all that well for a brand new army which, by its nature, has no vast fanbase. People are more likely to spend that extra on models because they don't have any at all. Luminoth, Idoneth, Ossiarchs all saw a similar pattern. Lumintoh perhaps a bit more because their release hit at the same time as Corona and they didn't get their real release until much later etc....

 Overread wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

as is the scale model market, a reason why GW is slowly shifting torwards those as the market is bigger and people are more willing to pay more for less models (as they only buy 1 Box anyway) than the Wargaming crowd

How is GW shifting toward the scale model market?
I've seen them shift somewhat toward boardgames here and there, but broadly speaking I've not seen any shift from GW toward what one might consider closer to an airfix or similar kit. If anything GW is heading the other way with fewer detailed parts rather than more.

it is not about model detail but what models are for
Monopose models with 5 different poses per Box and "dynamic" details and the Heroes-Sets they made

this targets more those who make a Diorama with those 5 models or want to put a Squad on the shelf than for people who play with them and need 20 or more (and having 4 times the same dynamic model on the table looks less good than if there are just 5)

I have now seen more Reavers in Dioramas than used for gaming (I know this is a personal impression and no general thing, but kits like those seems to be more attracting to the model crowed than the gaming crowed)

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 kodos wrote:
while most GW costumers think they are the only one and there is no one else doing similar products

Any evidence for that?

except for the local store crowds and players in closed groups, no

kind of those people who search the web and talk on open groups/clubs are not all or the majority of the GW costumers
and it is always kind of funny to talk to people and those are surprised that Acrylic Colours suitable to paint GW models are available outside the GW store (like when people ask that they cannot order Citadel from Amazon and lockdown prevents them from going to the GW store so they have no possibility to get any colours to paint are not really believing that Vallejo or Army Paint can be used too)

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

as is the scale model market, a reason why GW is slowly shifting torwards those as the market is bigger and people are more willing to pay more for less models (as they only buy 1 Box anyway) than the Wargaming crowd

How is GW shifting toward the scale model market?
I've seen them shift somewhat toward boardgames here and there, but broadly speaking I've not seen any shift from GW toward what one might consider closer to an airfix or similar kit. If anything GW is heading the other way with fewer detailed parts rather than more.

it is not about model detail but what models are for
Monopose models with 5 different poses per Box and "dynamic" details and the Heroes-Sets they made

this targets more those who make a Diorama with those 5 models or want to put a Squad on the shelf than for people who play with them and need 20 or more (and having 4 times the same dynamic model on the table looks less good than if there are just 5)

Pressing X for doubt.

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Isn't the mecha Gunpla market bigger than GW's market? I seem to recall reading/hearing that whilst it hasn't got a "game" as such it has a considerably larger buying market. It's just much more asian/eastern/USA focused.

as is the scale model market, a reason why GW is slowly shifting torwards those as the market is bigger and people are more willing to pay more for less models (as they only buy 1 Box anyway) than the Wargaming crowd

I'm not sure it's a sensible thing to say that GW is shifting towards a market that has considerably cheaper prices for models 20 years ahead of GW in technology as a ploy to charge more for less.