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Makes me wonder if a battalion enhancement allows more reinforcement points to be spent and that ends up so (un-)impactful as to be seen as a useless gesture towards horde armies or the go to choice because it sustains the large unit buff-o-rama.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Question is: Does the Dawnbreaker Crusade book suddenly make Cities of Sigmar vanish. It is an entire army of legacy models, after all.

Legions of Nagash seems to have been parted out into the other Death armies and now that most of it is found in Gravelords it's fully replaced and gone. I could see Cities of Sigmar suffer a similar fate.

 Geifer wrote:
Makes me wonder if a battalion enhancement allows more reinforcement points to be spent and that ends up so (un-)impactful as to be seen as a useless gesture towards horde armies or the go to choice because it sustains the large unit buff-o-rama.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Question is: Does the Dawnbreaker Crusade book suddenly make Cities of Sigmar vanish. It is an entire army of legacy models, after all.

Legions of Nagash seems to have been parted out into the other Death armies and now that most of it is found in Gravelords it's fully replaced and gone. I could see Cities of Sigmar suffer a similar fate.

With the rumors about a new dwarf tome consolidating dwarves(or Duardin) I imagine Cities of Sigmar will see some streamlining by removing excess weight and partitioning that weight to other tomes. I imagine exciting new changes are ahead of us.

Exciting it one way of putting it. If it actually includes new models this time around I'll even agree. But in typical GW fashion a good thing can't just be a good thing and one can't be certain what is retained, removed or changed, and so I'm not all that excited to work on my models in the meantime.

 Galas wrote:
Reinforcement points show the absolutel lack of direction AoS has.

We started 2.0 with horde discounts being the new hotness! Hordes are weak! You should all buy them!

Then, by mid to late edition they stopped with horde discounts. And now this.

WTF. Is extremely complex and it doesnt fix anything? If buff stackin was a problem, is using a bad band-aid to fix a wound only themselves caused.

What you need to understand is GW isn't at any point trying to make a good game. They're making a constantly changing ruleset that incentivizes you to keep buying models to keep your army legal/relevant/competitive.

my undergut list is literally either useless or illegal- 2x9 bulls and 8 leadbelchers cannot be made as it's 5 reserve points if i count correctly. And leadbelchers have min size of 2

Cronch wrote:
my undergut list is literally either useless or illegal- 2x9 bulls and 8 leadbelchers cannot be made as it's 5 reserve points if i count correctly. And leadbelchers have min size of 2

2 per　glutton, 3 lead. 7 actually...

Oh and 8 leadbelcher illegal. You can at most triple unit size so 6 is biggest leadbelcher　unit you can have. No charge bonus for them.

Some more rumours from TGA

Vindictors 5 / 140 Battleline
Annihilators 3 / 180
Praetors 3 / 155
Imperatant 160
Vexillor 125
Knight Arcanum 150
Yndrasta 300 (monsters within 3" are treated as having 10 less wounds when looking at damage brackets)

Total in box 1,350

Killaboss with Stabgrot 140
Killaboss on Great Gnashtoof 200
Murknob with Belcha-banna 115
Swampcalla Shaman 125
Hobgrotz 10/95
Manskewer Boltboyz 3/120
Guttrippaz 10/180

Total in box 1,070

Roughly 1,000 points each if you leave Yndrasta out.

Daughters of Khaine's points have been increased - "Sisters up 20, stalkers up 30. Morathi up 60, basically everything went up 10 or more"

Manskewer Boltboyz

Ah here's the GW random verbnoun chart naming convetion we all know and love

Article up
Here's that table we saw in French:

Battlepacks
Before you choose a mission, you need to figure out which battlepack you’ll be using. Battlepacks bundle together a suite of rules – introducing restrictions, determining the size of the battlefield, and dictating the number of units you can bring to the fight.
The Contest of Generals battlepack in the Core Book is one such option, designed for matched play. It’s been carefully crafted to make your games as balanced as possible. Take a look at this chart to get a sense of how it’ll work.
The Contest of Generals battlepack allows you to build your army using a new type of battalion, called a core battalion.

Core Battalions
There are now two types of battalions in Warhammer Age of Sigmar. The warscroll battalions you know and love are for units of renown and represent a specific focus, a special leader, or additional training. On the other hand, core battalions are intended to balance out the various units in exchange for distinct abilities.

Looks like the older ones are staying, hooray!

I like my Idoneth ones.

Guys, don't forget that the GHB comes with updated points and unit sizes. Your current unit sizes and points mean nothing in 3.0 you got to save your complains until you see the new unit sizes. Ogors may change size. Orruks may change size. Melusai and other problematic units may be mark as "single" (wich mean cannot be reinforced) and so on.

This change is really good. MSU don't often delete the thing they charge. This will create a lot more multi-combat situations with back and forth, wich is one of the big focus on the new edition. They aren't only improving the balance, they are also workin on improving the fun of the game. Heroic actions for both players, numerous CA both active and reactive in all phases. Monstrous Rampages for both players, and more small combats all around the board that go back and forth more often. Even if they screw up, it is imposible to not see the good intention of the new ruleset.

This is more a game supposed to be fun than a sport supposed to be balance. And we still got to see the full core book and GHB to know the real balance of the game.

Given how much MW stuff already generates, there absolutely will still be units that will just delete MSU. They toned down number of models without toning down damage output of models. Which is good i suppose, with the shorter ranges it means the game will be done by turn 2 instead of dragging out till turn 3...

 Yoid wrote:
Guys, don't forget that the GHB comes with updated points and unit sizes. Your current unit sizes and points mean nothing in 3.0 you got to save your complains until you see the new unit sizes. Ogors may change size. Orruks may change size. Melusai and other problematic units may be mark as "single" (wich mean cannot be reinforced) and so on.

This change is really good. MSU don't often delete the thing they charge. This will create a lot more multi-combat situations with back and forth, wich is one of the big focus on the new edition. They aren't only improving the balance, they are also workin on improving the fun of the game. Heroic actions for both players, numerous CA both active and reactive in all phases. Monstrous Rampages for both players, and more small combats all around the board that go back and forth more often. Even if they screw up, it is imposible to not see the good intention of the new ruleset.

This is more a game supposed to be fun than a sport supposed to be balance. And we still got to see the full core book and GHB to know the real balance of the game.

Ah the naivety of new players. Over　2 decades every time　new book comes players figure out problems ahead time. Every time new player claims it's allright, we don't　know full picture.

And every time naive player claiming we don'' know full picture so problem won't be problem is proven wrong.

23 years and counting as bare minimum.

Gw games aren't hard to figure. There's no subtle interactions. And gw's　goal isn't improving game but force miniature sales. This makes figuring problems and solving best army for new release even months ahead

Unit sizes are based on box contents, they're not changing.

'The New Edition is a Buffet of Delights for the Hedonites of Slaanesh' on Warhammer Community.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Unit sizes are based on box contents, they're not changing.

Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Unit sizes are based on box contents, they're not changing.

Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20(except in the SC) except they are now MSU 10 so they might very well increase to 20 as MSU to count for the box contents, especially if the SC ends up going away like they have done in 40k.

So I could very well imagine some MSU changing in the next GHB.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Unit sizes are based on box contents, they're not changing.

Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20(except in the SC) except they are now MSU 10 so they might very well increase to 20 as MSU to count for the box contents, especially if the SC ends up going away like they have done in 40k.

Or GW is getting ready for the next price hike/ cut model count in next wave of boxes, so the new boxes will be the same price but with 10 ghouls or 5 'Ard Boyz.

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

 AduroT wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Unit sizes are based on box contents, they're not changing.

Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Or Saurus Guard for that example.

No one tell him about Skinks.

tneva82 wrote:

 Yoid wrote:
Guys, don't forget that the GHB comes with updated points and unit sizes. Your current unit sizes and points mean nothing in 3.0 you got to save your complains until you see the new unit sizes. Ogors may change size. Orruks may change size. Melusai and other problematic units may be mark as "single" (wich mean cannot be reinforced) and so on.

This change is really good. MSU don't often delete the thing they charge. This will create a lot more multi-combat situations with back and forth, wich is one of the big focus on the new edition. They aren't only improving the balance, they are also workin on improving the fun of the game. Heroic actions for both players, numerous CA both active and reactive in all phases. Monstrous Rampages for both players, and more small combats all around the board that go back and forth more often. Even if they screw up, it is imposible to not see the good intention of the new ruleset.

This is more a game supposed to be fun than a sport supposed to be balance. And we still got to see the full core book and GHB to know the real balance of the game.

Ah the naivety of new players. Over　2 decades every time　new book comes players figure out problems ahead time. Every time new player claims it's allright, we don't　know full picture.

And every time naive player claiming we don'' know full picture so problem won't be problem is proven wrong.

23 years and counting as bare minimum.

Gw games aren't hard to figure. There's no subtle interactions. And gw's　goal isn't improving game but force miniature sales. This makes figuring problems and solving best army for new release even months ahead

I didn't said that. By no mean I implied there will be no problems with 3.0. In fact I implied that problems may come. But i also said that complaining about stuff that is gonna change with the release of the new GHB in a month is pointless, because then you are complaining on speculation, not facts.

I ensure you GW will screw something, is statistically imposible that they don't. But everything that I stated is still true. People complaining about Orruks being 5-15 and Ogors being 2-6 need to chill until GHB come, then you can complain or don't based on that.

And someone negatively saying that unit sizes will not change because they match boxes. The complains about Orruks and Ogors are precisely because the box dosn't match the current minimum size of the unit. And that can easily change in GHB. The same for the guy claiming that no one will reinforce witch aelves instead of bow-snakes. We don't know wich units are gonna be single.

Pre-complaining for a rule that we know is gonna change in a month is pointless. Not just that is gonna change in a month, but is gonna change at the same time 3.0 release, so the is gonna be literal 0 days with unit sizes and points being missmatched with the new core rules.

There will always be negaive things about the system, but don't simply feed even more negativity without any meaning or fundation. Many improvements are coming too. We may end with a good balance of things going bad and things going good.

 kodos wrote:

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

Black Orcs were in boxes of 10 in Fantasy, they were reboxed to 15 during AoS. The models might be ‘legacy’ but the amount in the box is unique to AoS.

 kodos wrote:

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

Gloomspite Gitz Squig units. come in boxes of 10 (or 12 for herds) but min size 5 (or 6 for herds).

 kodos wrote:

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

Bladegheist Revenants, Dreadscythe Harridans, and Boingrot Bounders/Squig Hoppers of the top of my head.

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 kodos wrote:

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

Bladegheist Revenants, Dreadscythe Harridans, and Boingrot Bounders/Squig Hoppers of the top of my head.

Bloodreavers, Blood Warriors, Liberators, Judicators, Prosecutors, Sequitors, Kairic Acolytes, Mortek Guard... off the top of my head. There are a lot of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yup. By all means criticize the rule, but the one who comes across as a newcomer is the one who believes the minimum sizes won't be updated.

Minimum, max sizes can kiss my mushroom pads... so when are we going back to square bases?

 NAVARRO wrote:
Minimum, max sizes can kiss my mushroom pads... so when are we going back to square bases?

Come to Kings of War, we have tactics

And unit Bases

 NAVARRO wrote:
Minimum, max sizes can kiss my mushroom pads... so when are we going back to square bases?

never, they are just going to re-sell the old Lord of the Rings and Apo unit Bases and The Old World will be just Campaign Books using AoS3 as base

 DaveC wrote:
Some more rumours from TGA

Vindictors 5 / 140 Battleline
Annihilators 3 / 180
Praetors 3 / 155
Imperatant 160
Vexillor 125
Knight Arcanum 150
Yndrasta 300 (monsters within 3" are treated as having 10 less wounds when looking at damage brackets)

Total in box 1,350

Killaboss with Stabgrot 140
Killaboss on Great Gnashtoof 200
Murknob with Belcha-banna 115
Swampcalla Shaman 125
Hobgrotz 10/95
Manskewer Boltboyz 3/120
Guttrippaz 10/180

Total in box 1,070

Roughly 1,000 points each if you leave Yndrasta out.

Daughters of Khaine's points have been increased - "Sisters up 20, stalkers up 30. Morathi up 60, basically everything went up 10 or more"

I hope the DoK point changes are just in line with the rumored general pump everything's getting because if not DoK are going to be TRASH. They're already pretty mediocre after the new book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Minimum, max sizes can kiss my mushroom pads... so when are we going back to square bases?

Come to Kings of War, we have tactics

Ah yes, the wonderful KoW tactic of leaving for 30 minutes to do laundry and it literally doesn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 kodos wrote:

AduroT wrote:Like ‘Ardboyz, who have a minimum unit size of five, require ten to be Battleline, but come in a box of fifteen?

Eldarsif wrote:Depends on the box. Crypt Ghouls come in boxes of 20

Warhammer Fantasy Legacy Models, any AoS models were the Box content does not fit Unit size outside from Starter Boxes?

Bladegheist Revenants, Dreadscythe Harridans, and Boingrot Bounders/Squig Hoppers of the top of my head.

Bloodreavers, Blood Warriors, Liberators, Judicators, Prosecutors, Sequitors, Kairic Acolytes, Mortek Guard... off the top of my head. There are a lot of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

 Yoid wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Yoid wrote:
Guys, don't forget that the GHB comes with updated points and unit sizes. Your current unit sizes and points mean nothing in 3.0 you got to save your complains until you see the new unit sizes. Ogors may change size. Orruks may change size. Melusai and other problematic units may be mark as "single" (wich mean cannot be reinforced) and so on.

This change is really good. MSU don't often delete the thing they charge. This will create a lot more multi-combat situations with back and forth, wich is one of the big focus on the new edition. They aren't only improving the balance, they are also workin on improving the fun of the game. Heroic actions for both players, numerous CA both active and reactive in all phases. Monstrous Rampages for both players, and more small combats all around the board that go back and forth more often. Even if they screw up, it is imposible to not see the good intention of the new ruleset.

This is more a game supposed to be fun than a sport supposed to be balance. And we still got to see the full core book and GHB to know the real balance of the game.

Ah the naivety of new players. Over　2 decades every time　new book comes players figure out problems ahead time. Every time new player claims it's allright, we don't　know full picture.

And every time naive player claiming we don'' know full picture so problem won't be problem is proven wrong.

23 years and counting as bare minimum.

Gw games aren't hard to figure. There's no subtle interactions. And gw's　goal isn't improving game but force miniature sales. This makes figuring problems and solving best army for new release even months ahead

I didn't said that. By no mean I implied there will be no problems with 3.0. In fact I implied that problems may come. But i also said that complaining about stuff that is gonna change with the release of the new GHB in a month is pointless, because then you are complaining on speculation, not facts.

I ensure you GW will screw something, is statistically imposible that they don't. But everything that I stated is still true. People complaining about Orruks being 5-15 and Ogors being 2-6 need to chill until GHB come, then you can complain or don't based on that.

And someone negatively saying that unit sizes will not change because they match boxes. The complains about Orruks and Ogors are precisely because the box dosn't match the current minimum size of the unit. And that can easily change in GHB. The same for the guy claiming that no one will reinforce witch aelves instead of bow-snakes. We don't know wich units are gonna be single.

Pre-complaining for a rule that we know is gonna change in a month is pointless. Not just that is gonna change in a month, but is gonna change at the same time 3.0 release, so the is gonna be literal 0 days with unit sizes and points being missmatched with the new core rules.

There will always be negaive things about the system, but don't simply feed even more negativity without any meaning or fundation. Many improvements are coming too. We may end with a good balance of things going bad and things going good.

Yup. By all means criticize the rule, but the one who comes across as a newcomer is the one who believes the minimum sizes won't be updated.

Agreed. It's much more naive to think the community is going to right about the impact of sweeping edition changes. Dakka's batting average is especially terrible. I still remember people thinking 8th was going to be a garbage fire compared to 7th edition 40k when they literally couldn't possibly have made the game worse.

Well I don't want to unilaterally condemn all the predictions, if anything I find the communal predictions tend to be right more often than not with the most common error being hyperbole over severity. The bad predictions come from people jumping to unjustified conclusions, like assuming minimum unit sizes will not be updated to account for this change. Doubly so considering the newest tomes clearly have.

ERJAK wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Minimum, max sizes can kiss my mushroom pads... so when are we going back to square bases?

Come to Kings of War, we have tactics

Ah yes, the wonderful KoW tactic of leaving for 30 minutes to do laundry and it literally doesn't matter.

Compared to the wonderful tactic of having to be there to roll saves and doubling the length of a match while having zero actual agency like GW had for 90% of its existance.