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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I imagine healthy or even average health citizens have nothing to worry about.

This is not true. There's is an immunological response in which the body overreacts with excessive inflammation at an infected site (in this case, the lungs). It's called a cytokine storm. It doesn't happen with just CoVid, and we already live with various immunological diseases, such as muscular dystrophy. If you've heard of how otherwise healthy Chinese victims between 20-40 years old suddenly developed lung problems and died in 4-5 days, a possible reason is this immunological response. The elderly and those with pre-existing conditions *are* the most vulnerable to dying from the virus (additionally, smokers are also vulnerable), but that does not mean healthy citizens have "nothing to worry about". I have not read any studies about those who have recovered from CoVid (cases suggest one can get reinfected), and am trying to find out if there are any permanent effects (eg. lung damage) from the virus. I'm sure once these unknowns become known (including vaccines developed against the virus), we'll have less panic and know how to deal with it.

https://thefamilythathealstogether.com/how-to-calm-cytokine-storm/

 oni wrote:
It's my understanding that most paper products (TP, paper towels, tissues, etc.) and cleaning supplies sold throughout the world are manufactured in China or at the very least their packaging is made in China. It might be awhile until shelves are able to be restocked.

This is the incorrect rumor that STARTED the run on toilet paper.

90% of all TP sold in America is produced domestically. Even if all the 10% not produced domestically came from China (it doesn't), it wouldn't be THAT big a problem

EDIT: I'm starting to become quite worried about this.

No, not the virus itself. That's bad, but not panickworthy. What's worrying me is how the economy is starting to cannibalize itself. Things are starting to look very 2007 right now, and some economists are talking about rehashing 1929...

I went to the supermarket last night. No TP (for over a week.)

Lots of shelves cleared: medical, pasta, rice, flour, except for the most expensive. Tinned goods well thinned out.

Plenty of of fresh fruit and veg. Plenty of fresh meat and dairy. Eggs were thinned but still enough.

I'm nowhere near panicked, because we've got enough stuff to last a couple of weeks, but I'm starting to worry that if the panic buying doesn't stop, I will run out.

In other virus related news, a friend of my daughter at university was attacked and stabbed for being Chinese. He's from Hong Kong. He wasn't badly hurt, it was just cuts, but obviously it was very frightening. He said he felt said because no-one around wanted to help him.

The university has hired security guards to protect students during lectures, but this guy was on his way home from the pub.

In more positive news, I helped an oriental looking lady to get an item from a high shelf she couldn't reach in the supermarket.

I think it's a scary time to be Chinese looking now in the UK. That's wrong. We had enough racism and xenophobia already.

 ced1106 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I imagine healthy or even average health citizens have nothing to worry about.

This is not true. There's is an immunological response in which the body overreacts with excessive inflammation at an infected site (in this case, the lungs). It's called a cytokine storm. It doesn't happen with just CoVid, and we already live with various immunological diseases, such as muscular dystrophy. If you've heard of how otherwise healthy Chinese victims between 20-40 years old suddenly developed lung problems and died in 4-5 days, a possible reason is this immunological response. The elderly and those with pre-existing conditions *are* the most vulnerable to dying from the virus (additionally, smokers are also vulnerable), but that does not mean healthy citizens have "nothing to worry about". I have not read any studies about those who have recovered from CoVid (cases suggest one can get reinfected), and am trying to find out if there are any permanent effects (eg. lung damage) from the virus. I'm sure once these unknowns become known (including vaccines developed against the virus), we'll have less panic and know how to deal with it.

https://thefamilythathealstogether.com/how-to-calm-cytokine-storm/

This will still be quite rare , I work In high dependency and we do see this but is rare, age is a factor any article that says food will sort is dodgy, generally speaking if younger and fit the risk is much lower, but as with seasonal flu very rarely a young fit person does die. But once this outbreak /disaster is run its course sadly we will see predominantly that the deaths come from the elderly, infirm, disabled and chronic health conditions group.

I am actually quite concerned for people with other medical issues as I am concerned they will be ignored in favour of the coronavirus patients.

Stay safe, clean your hands , help your neighbours and vulnerable people and try to prove society can help each other.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honest question, this surprises me a bit, do non of your governments reccomend / force you to have reserves of food and other necessities?

Lots of them theoretically recommend it. Buried somewhere on a CDC-equivelent webpage. Force? How would you force people to do so? Spot checks by the police? Lots of people also can't afford to, or live from paycheck to paycheck. Not us here with our expensive hobbies, of course, but even students prioritise (and often, badly - so "the pub" comes before food because instant ramen or whatever).

The UK had Civil Defence preparation until the end of the Cold War.

Is there psychological research on buying toilet paper? Yes, there is psychological research on toilet paper.

"In 1973, U.S. consumers cleared store shelves of the rolls for a month based on little more than rumors, fears and a joke. ... At the time, Americans were already worrying about limited supplies of products like gasoline, electricity and onions. A government press release warning of a potential shortage in toilet paper led to a lot of press coverage but no outright panic buying until Johnny Carson, a famous late night television host, joked about it during his opening monologue. Instead of laughing, people took it seriously and began to hoard toilet paper.

A risk expert in the country explained it this way: “Stocking up on toilet paper is … a relatively cheap action, and people like to think that they are ‘doing something’ when they feel at risk.” ... This is an example of “zero risk bias,” in which people prefer to try to eliminate one type of possibly superficial risk entirely rather than do something that would reduce their total risk by a greater amount. ... Hoarding also makes people feel secure. This is especially relevant when the world is faced with a novel disease over which all of us have little or no control. However, we can control things like having enough toilet paper in case we are quarantined. ... It’s also possible we are biologically programmed to hoard. Birds, squirrels and other animals tend to hoard stuff.

http://theconversation.com/theres-plenty-of-toilet-paper-in-the-us-so-why-are-people-hoarding-it-133300

Oh, and if you've been using toilet paper all these years, get a bidet. Yes, you'll still use TP. Just less of it. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=travel+bidet&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Aaand Greece has shut down... 2 dead as of today, people in the 60-90 years bracket. My boss gave half of us their remaining leave. Restaurants, theaters, clubs, courts, bars and all shops bar pharmacies and super markets shut down.
At least the weather here is getting better.

 Azazelx wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honest question, this surprises me a bit, do non of your governments reccomend / force you to have reserves of food and other necessities?

Lots of them theoretically recommend it. Buried somewhere on a CDC-equivelent webpage. Force? How would you force people to do so? Spot checks by the police? Lots of people also can't afford to, or live from paycheck to paycheck. Not us here with our expensive hobbies, of course, but even students prioritise (and often, badly - so "the pub" comes before food because instant ramen or whatever).

Meh , you can't really say no to your own stipulations, also the whole minimal Standard is anyways enforced by neighbours, due to a System of Bunkers and maintenance of said , including of course reserves of Food and other necessities.
Case in point i am in a house with one that i potentially have to share Soo.
Also military institution goes through society as a whole due to mandatory conscription System so the state is allways here. kinda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

konst80hummel wrote:
Aaand Greece has shut down... 2 dead as of today, people in the 60-90 years bracket. My boss gave half of us their remaining leave. Restaurants, theaters, clubs, courts, bars and all shops bar pharmacies and super markets shut down.
At least the weather here is getting better.

Italy got another 250 dead.

Wait and See approach.

I found a video showing how the state of things are in Iran, and Its not looking so good. For some reason the Iranian goverment has yet to close everything down and declare a state of emergency, even as the death count keeps rising.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9pbwTaIL4y/

Fair warning, some of footage can be quite distressing to watch.

I saw a report suggesting Iran is digging mass graves. Pretty grim stuff.

Fortunately, bars and pubs are still open in France ! I'll drink one for DakkaDakka tonight

Florida, in the US, has closed all schools until the end of March and is deep cleaning them in the hopes of slowing the spread of the virus.

The schoolboard is also refusing to let anyone come back to work after traveling out of the country or going on a cruise until they complete a quarantine period.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Florida, in the US, has closed all schools until the end of March and is deep cleaning them in the hopes of slowing the spread of the virus.

The schoolboard is also refusing to let anyone come back to work after traveling out of the country or going on a cruise until they complete a quarantine period.

2020 the year summer vacation came extra early.
That might explain why the grocery store was so busy.

https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1238494501523636231


" All non-essential travel to and from virus-hit countries has been suspended for Islamic State jihadis"

uh huh.


2020 eh ?

 warhead01 wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Florida, in the US, has closed all schools until the end of March and is deep cleaning them in the hopes of slowing the spread of the virus.

The schoolboard is also refusing to let anyone come back to work after traveling out of the country or going on a cruise until they complete a quarantine period.

2020 the year summer vacation came extra early.
That might explain why the grocery store was so busy.

Yeah, expect pre-hurricane grocery conditions for a week or so as everybody stocks up.

The weirdest thing is that my county, Hillsborough won't be losing any school days- after our Spring break is over, we're supposed to do online school for our students. Theoretically, we won't end up losing any time and Summer break will come normally.I'm very curious to see how it works, and I imagine the powers that be will watch our test scores with great interest.

It wouldn't surprise me if students with non-critical examinations might get less attention. Whilst those with things like final GCSE and Alevels might well get a lions share of remote school attention. Purely because those exams do carry a lot of importance for those students

Well. 1,500 new cases in spain in a day, and the dead toll in madrid has doubled.

As I said, we are just starting here, people isn't taking this seriously enough (Or they are taking it TOO seriously) and we'll end up like Italy in no time.

Europe is a old-continent, the deaths here are gonna be big. I'm not afraid for myself but all my loved ones? Yeah. This is gonna be rought.


Also... is true that this Boris Johnson guy has said basically that people on the UK should be ready to lose loved ones? I found it in spanish-site news but could not find it on UK based ones.

Yeah, he did say it. I hate Boris, he is a disgrace, but to be fair, it is the truth.

When your friend on the bar says it you can go "Yeah, harsh but true".

In this case it may be the truth but when a politician says it is always in the "is inevitable, you can't have us take responsabilities for it" kind of way.

I can see that argument, yeah.

konst80hummel wrote:
My boss gave half of us their remaining leave. Restaurants, theaters, clubs, courts, bars and all shops bar pharmacies and super markets shut down.
At least the weather here is getting better.

Same in Oslo, it is more or less a ghost town and will be for another 12 days. (alltough we can move out if we do not have the virus, but we have to be 1m from eachother)
The PM is considering closing the norwegian borders.

All this talk of 'underlying' health conditions is beginning to depress me,

having asthma bad enough that I have to medicate daily makes me worry that's me (fortunately it's controlled most of the time, but still worrying)

Can we ask Yakface to look at the thread please. This is the most important conversation on Dakka by a large margin. We need to support each other and keep each other informed. I request two levities for this thread.
1. That it be 'locked open', i.e. deal with any individuals that you have no choice but to deal with, but keep the conversation going in case anyone needs the reassurance, or space to vent when/if things get bad..
2. That the politics ban be lifted, on this thread only, due to 'extrordinary circumstances'. This is necessary as social problems of this scale are inherently political, and yet personally relevant to each one of us.

We are an international community and what we have been told and what conditions are imposed will differ from individual members. This is important for discussion yet the politics cannot be separated from it.
A lot of the consequences that relate to us and our testimonies will be directly related to central decision making. We had political discussion for two decades without Dakka blowing up, and we never had an issue that effected us individually and as deeply as we face today. Lets not have to dance around on egg shells because half the subject matter is off limits.

New Ghazkhul model is nice to talk about, but its nothing to lose sleep over if you cant get one locally, and exposure to Adepta Soroitas is not going to make you sick.

We need to think a few weeks ahead. It is inevitable that some of us will end up self isolating, or will be quarantined directly, or end up in a quarantine zone. Some are there already. Internet is a lifeline. For many of us Dakka IS our online community, and has been for some time. Facebook is vacuous, Dakka largely is not. Some might want to concentrate only on the gaming to put their minds at ease, others will want to communicate, some to vent, some to ask for reassurance. I think we should leave the door open. Will not be the first time people have wanted to chat with familiar yet still anonymous names about personal issues.

Does the thread need any attention - its gone for 20pages so far without problems

 Galas wrote:

Also... is true that this Boris Johnson guy has said basically that people on the UK should be ready to lose loved ones? I found it in spanish-site news but could not find it on UK based ones.

It was in the Uk press.

Looking at that press conference from a psychological point of view. Johnson has said straight up there will be 'loved ones dying before their time' fairly sympathetic wording. This part of the speech was scripted, it isn't his normal turn of phrasing, and had none of his rancour.
It also indicated that this was now a game, there will be casualties, now with the public forewarned Johnson can direct pieces on the board and they become that. This type of power is exciting, intoxicating even. He has switched from bothering with Cobra when he got around to it to Cobra every day.
This says a lot about Johnson, though nothing we didn't already know. But with Johnson now taking up the mantle of Player One there is good news. Johnson does have strengths, he is intelligent, he also has balls, now he is seeing this crisis as a strategic game, he is likely to more easily make tough decisions, and likely make better ones.

The UK Strategy right now seems to be to basically try and create a smooth curve of infections rising and then a prolonged low steady rate followed by a dip off.

I think their view is that preventing infection entirely isn't really on the cards. The population is too freely mobile within itself even if you don't factor in anyone coming from overseas or travelling to and back from overseas. Furthermore this disease is dangerous, but not so supremely dangerous as to force locking everything down to an insane and highly disruptive degree.

Their view being that they can avoid the huge spikes that some other countries are suffering; with the expectation that the medical services will be able to better support a slower spread, even if it hits most of the population.


The risk is that it gets out of control. Sometimes draconian measures from on top can help reinforce people at the local level to take even basic precautions such as limiting trips; contact and washing more regularly.



Plus they know that "once its all over" the population will very quickly return to its normal mobility levels. Even regions like Hong Kong are likely going to have to suffer the disease spreading through the population. They've just been a lot better at containment and controlling the spread.




As for "losing loved ones" its a simple statement of blunt fact. To have avoided it or brushed it off would have been foolish. Confronting it head on in clear and simple language can be a key part in reinforcing the seriousness of the situation to many who might not feel at threat.

 Galas wrote:



Also... is true that this Boris Johnson guy has said basically that people on the UK should be ready to lose loved ones? I found it in spanish-site news but could not find it on UK based ones.

Well he did say many will lose loved ones. Which is truth no matter what but in uk case will be quite many as plan is for herd immunity to develop. Too bad so far no herd immunity has really formed without vaccine which doesn't exists. And even if it did would require atleast about 60% of 65 million people catch it...even with 0.5% mortality that's over 300k deaths.

 Vulcan wrote:

 oni wrote:
It's my understanding that most paper products (TP, paper towels, tissues, etc.) and cleaning supplies sold throughout the world are manufactured in China or at the very least their packaging is made in China. It might be awhile until shelves are able to be restocked.

This is the incorrect rumor that STARTED the run on toilet paper.

90% of all TP sold in America is produced domestically. Even if all the 10% not produced domestically came from China (it doesn't), it wouldn't be THAT big a problem

I don't buy that explanation. First the run on toilet paper is throughout the west, not limited to the US, and in Europe there was no scare on 'TP being Chinese import'.
No toilet paper is one of the quietly important products. Its unglamourous, but everyone uses it, it is low mass, but very high bulk. Supermarkets do not have much toilet paper in stock. A single reasonable shop for toilet paper will be not short of 1 or 2 cubic feet, depending on whether you get a 12 pack or a 24 pack. Only a few buyers are needed to void a large amount of store space. Enough toilet paper is being made, unlike hand gel, because normal use and peak use are the same. Hand gel ran out because a relatively unimportant product became of international importance. Bog roll is being used at the same rate as normal. However to ship a lot more toilet paper in a supermarket will need additional delivery lorries, and supermarket availability staff aren't able to cope with that.

However looking at my local town the 'panic buying' has now reached tins. People are gradually wising up and stockpiling. Be smart, join them. Its still early days in most of the west. Shop now, get stored goods and things you can put in the freezer. You do not want to have no choice but to go to get essential supplies in 6-8 weeks time at peak virus. Stock up now.

 Vulcan wrote:

EDIT: I'm starting to become quite worried about this.
No, not the virus itself. That's bad, but not panickworthy. What's worrying me is how the economy is starting to cannibalize itself. Things are starting to look very 2007 right now, and some economists are talking about rehashing 1929...

You should be concerned for both. There is be a resource gap in the next month. People are complaining about panic buyers, they shouldn't, they should become one, and 'be part of the problem'. Panic buyers are just preppers who prepped after the disaster has begun to start. The real panic buying will occur after the 'panic buyers' have finished stocking. This last group is known (to preppers) as the Golden Horde. The 90+% of the population who made no preparations at all, and then get desperate.
Western society is linked by logistical threads. We are seeing some of these fail already, and increasing numbers will do so. Some industries are instantly flatlined when lockdown occurs, this is a financial trench, a sharp spike downwards which can ripple through the economy. So there will be a financial crisis, that is guaranteed now. Lessons from 2007 were not learned, many deliberately so as the resulting problems happened to other people. Now add that to flatlining industry subsectors and you have problems.
The third kick to the gut will be transport logistics itself taking a hit when international and then regional supply chains get interrupted by quarantine, and rise of infections amongst transport staff (who have high exposure) any delay on shipping will compoiund as it effects the logistical train from raw materials to product distribution.
Italy is already going to have to 'assume the position' they have shut down everything except pharmacies and groceries. That means no income for asizable percentage of the population and a collapse of parts of the industrial network which will inevitably effect the rest.

Coronavirus is not an issue out of proportion, its out of balance. It has the mass to put pressure on large parts of the societal network and that will have consequences.

I don't think the herd inmunity theory will play out.
At the same time I'm no expert and tbh I believe this is taking all the world with the pants down, so even experts will have a difficult time predicting how things will play out (That doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them of course)

Two weeks ago we were making fun of the chinese. A week ago from Italy. And we are here right now. At least other countries are taking example before things go so bad, unlike we did on Spain with Italy so close to us.

France on the other way, is really don't taking this seriously enough and I believe thats gonna end badly for them.