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Voss wrote:

Well, Iran has had a rough time with it, despite the climate.

Iran's climate is rather varied. Tehran today? 8 degrees Celsius. Birjand? 21 degrees.

climate is definitely a factor, thats undeniable. I think that it will drop off massively in summer in the UK. things that can offset it are other factors like social behaviours..the physical contact of continental europeans for example, smoking and respiratory health, which I'd suggest is a big factor in iran that might offset the slightly warmer climate.

 Overread wrote:
The main problem is that those "suspected to have the coronavirus" don't know they've got it for around a week. You could have it right now and not be aware of it for quite a while. So you could go out without a mask in all good faith that you're safe and end up spreading it.

I have been hearing it is even possible to get coronavirus, have it for multiple weeks, then recover, and be asymptomatic the entire time.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The main problem is that those "suspected to have the coronavirus" don't know they've got it for around a week. You could have it right now and not be aware of it for quite a while. So you could go out without a mask in all good faith that you're safe and end up spreading it.

I have been hearing it is even possible to get coronavirus, have it for multiple weeks, then recover, and be asymptomatic the entire time.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Just like with the regular flu strains we get some people really suffer and others hardly notice it. Plus even when two people have similar symptoms some have a higher tolerance. So for a more mild case with aches and some trouble breathing some might simply push through and not "notice" whilst others might be laying on their back ready for the end. Even though both suffer the same degree of infection, their reaction to it is very different. So even if you show some symptoms some people might simply overlook them entirely, especially since aches and coughs are not uncommon things.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Why, you were ready to declare them terrorists 10 pages ago? Is it just their findings confirm your bias now?

Maybe don't jump to conclusions. that wasnt me. I posted before about the director general of the WHO having possible financial interests with the PRC, in relation to the Taiwanese handling of the CV crisis. That doesnt mean that I discount all their advice.

Correct, that was Sqorgar. I was about to post just that. As I understand your objections, they're not against taking measures to slow the spread perse, but the way they're being implemented and how much personal freedom you hae to sacrifice (plus concerns about if you'll get those feedoms back afterwards). A point of view I can at least understand and even sympathize with, even if I don't agree with your priorities right now.

Cronch wrote:
Why, you were ready to declare them terrorists 10 pages ago? Is it just their findings confirm your bias now?

I was one of the first people on this thread to call out WHO for being CCP puppets. Would you like some sources? Here's the interview with a WHO senior official actively dodging praising Taiwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM Terrorist isn't really the term since they aren't using terror tactics to control people. They are simply corrupt and willing to fudge data on behalf of their CCP overlords. Please don't forget the brave doctors who disappeared trying to blow the whistle on this contradicting official WHO/CCP data. People literally died and were possibly tortured to expose CCP corruption. The least you could do is listen.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Why, you were ready to declare them terrorists 10 pages ago? Is it just their findings confirm your bias now?

I was one of the first people on this thread to call out WHO for being CCP puppets. Would you like some sources? Here's the interview with a WHO senior official actively dodging praising Taiwan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM Terrorist isn't really the term since they aren't using terror tactics to control people. They are simply corrupt and willing to fudge data on behalf of their CCP overlords. Please don't forget the brave doctors who disappeared trying to blow the whistle on this contradicting official WHO/CCP data. People literally died and were possibly tortured to expose CCP corruption. The least you could do is listen.

Money money money.
It's an organisation which needs it, and atm China is one of the biggest beneficiaries.

Time for some other countries to step up or completely abandon the UNO and form a seperate actual organisation that doesn't rely on superpowers for agreements.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The main problem is that those "suspected to have the coronavirus" don't know they've got it for around a week. You could have it right now and not be aware of it for quite a while. So you could go out without a mask in all good faith that you're safe and end up spreading it.

I have been hearing it is even possible to get coronavirus, have it for multiple weeks, then recover, and be asymptomatic the entire time.

That's true, but what's the solution? Other than testing the entire population, there's no way of getting around that issue there's never a way of eliminating 100% of the risk, that's just life.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The main problem is that those "suspected to have the coronavirus" don't know they've got it for around a week. You could have it right now and not be aware of it for quite a while. So you could go out without a mask in all good faith that you're safe and end up spreading it.

I have been hearing it is even possible to get coronavirus, have it for multiple weeks, then recover, and be asymptomatic the entire time.

That's true, but what's the solution? Other than testing the entire population, there's no way of getting around that issue there's never a way of eliminating 100% of the risk, that's just life.

Exactly and that's why I think the UK went for the whole Herd Immunity approach. Containment of the infected and isolation until they are no longer infectious doesn't seem to be on the cards in a lot of nations. Plus its an approach that only works provided everyone else plays ball otherwise one person in a plane can kickstart the whole infection all over again.

Otherwise you're basically going to have to shut down the majority of the world for 3 or so years.

I think its important people realise that right now countries doing isolation aren't stopping the spread. They are smoothing the curve and rate of infections to values that medical services can better cope with, whilst also using reduced infection rates to buy time to buy testing kits ,ventilators, build new hospital setups, train staff etc... Ergo to prepare for bigger volumes of infected. Mass population testing can be a major contributing factor in that of course; it helps to keep those identified as infected isolated and China is showing that you can have dramatic results. They've even got apps which tell you if you have to isolate or not based on if you've come near others with the infection.

However many western nations just aren't socially setup for such measures. Plus they've not had a major outbreak like this in so long that the population is untrained in how to deal with it. China is, whilst also telling lies, also showing how containment can be done using modern technology.

Of course it also sacrifices personal privacy in order to achieve this end goal. So there's a huge question over how much of our private lives we want monitored. My gut feeling is that western nations will approach similar levels of monitoring, but that its a much slower and steadier process. People don't really mind CCTV in cities now like they did years ago; its become a background thing, plus retailers and such encourage cameras. Heck on the TV now there's adverts for cameras for your own home that you stream through your phone - so clearly people are more accepting of camera monitoring.

Yeah, well obviously I object to the level of surveillance that we have in our cities. I may be wrong but I dont think the amount, compared to how much crime it helps prevent justifies it in any way.

and the whole, lets monitor peoples phones and see if they're going near other people thing, is a very dangerous route to go down in my opinion. especially when its used to punish those deemed as breaking the rules. if that comes in I will be disabling mobile data on my phone and only using home wi fi.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Time for some other countries to step up or completely abandon the UNO and form a seperate actual organisation that doesn't rely on superpowers for agreements.

OK, how? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

One of the best things about being on a forum a long time is the way old friends pop back up into existence every now and again.





just need that guy who used to post about the size of asian genitals to return and it really be the end times indeed.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Time for some other countries to step up or completely abandon the UNO and form a seperate actual organisation that doesn't rely on superpowers for agreements.

OK, how? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Basic confederational structure, in a dual chamber system and with basic general oversight (aka initiative and referendums right of the general population with day to day buisness left to a parliament) in a qualified majority vote the qualifyer beeing majority of overall votes and majority of regional (in this case country) votes in a political system that has a degree of artificial delay in order to further structure the system so that demagogues have massive disadvantages.

And if the rest of the world is not convinced that the Swiss system is superior? For that matter, how are you going to enforce compliance on those that defect rather than cooperate in your collective action problem?

Bran Dawri wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Why, you were ready to declare them terrorists 10 pages ago? Is it just their findings confirm your bias now?

Maybe don't jump to conclusions. that wasnt me. I posted before about the director general of the WHO having possible financial interests with the PRC, in relation to the Taiwanese handling of the CV crisis. That doesnt mean that I discount all their advice.

Correct, that was Sqorgar. I was about to post just that. As I understand your objections, they're not against taking measures to slow the spread perse, but the way they're being implemented and how much personal freedom you hae to sacrifice (plus concerns about if you'll get those feedoms back afterwards). A point of view I can at least understand and even sympathize with, even if I don't agree with your priorities right now.

I'm not opposed to losing some freedoms (temporarily) but it MUST be the MINIMUM necessary to achieve the goal, which, due to a combination of the government U-turning on their propositions in the original CV bill, and overzealous elements of the police force enacting (whether through incompetence or malice) overly draconian measures on members of the public just trying to go about their business, has not happened here.

They also need to be reviewed regularly and contain a sunset clause. this bill does have a sunset clause I believe, but it was originally 2 years, which is far too long. I'm not sure what it is now. they also promised to review it in 3 weeks, and I've heard whisperings about that being chinned off. so we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Time for some other countries to step up or completely abandon the UNO and form a seperate actual organisation that doesn't rely on superpowers for agreements.

OK, how? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Basic confederational structure, in a dual chamber system and with basic general oversight (aka initiative and referendums right of the general population with day to day buisness left to a parliament) in a qualified majority vote the qualifyer beeing majority of overall votes and majority of regional (in this case country) votes in a political system that has a degree of artificial delay in order to further structure the system so that demagogues have massive disadvantages.

That sounds suspiciously like something that Britain just decided they wanted no part of...

Interestingly, a friend reached out to me today who had an extremely similar experience to what I had (father of young kids, experienced "severe shortness of breath plus total exhaustion", and was tested but came up negative). It also affected the father much worse than the rest of the family, just like we experienced.

Kind of reassures me that I'm not crazy / wasn't imagining the symptoms . But I'd really like to know what this is, since it's obviously not COVID-19, but not identified...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And if the rest of the world is not convinced that the Swiss system is superior? For that matter, how are you going to enforce compliance on those that defect rather than cooperate in your collective action problem?

Now you are asking the real question.
Is the system superior?. Highly debatable. It has chronic issues with reaction times in crisis situations and doesn't know a reglemented emergency lawset. Making it possible unstable and easily turned dictatorship so long it's executive has the majority support / is deemed legitimate enough, hence why switzerland had a Vollmachtenregime for 12 years during and after WW2 and only after the military and parties aswell as Kantons started to really get fed up the system broke down. On the other hand it also naturally if internalized proofs itself from extremist ideology (allbeit you can argue that the adherence to direct democratic institutions is in itself a radical ideology) due to them getting delegitimised and local regions , especially rural regions profit more due to self governance and actual investments made into them.
On the other hand the same system managed get what is in essence the Afghanistan of Europe to actually stop shanking each other or beating each other up with diffrent forms off crosses (or davidstars) for more then 5 minutes and is made up off the "problem" Nationalities e.g. those with a history of wanting to become local bigboy hegemon. ( on the other hand who didn't want to become).
Further it requires a high ammount of education baseline. And a healthy news mixture.


As for compliance enforcement, basically, if the federal level is percived as legitimate by the population a Kanton or in this case state vehemently doesn't want to bow down, that can mean 2 things, A local elites get curbed by local population. B it goes over federal law.
if neither is the case then you have a crisis of federal structures and generally that means long standing systemic discussions and due to the direct democratic element a blockade can at any point be breached or enforced. In the end it is a case of will of the governed. Which is incidentally why such states are more on the weak side letting local authorities decide on most things beyond armed forces and foreign policy. However due to the expanded rights of it's citizens it also can call upon more duties torwards said state.E.g. Mandatory service for militia/ military or social service infrastructure. It basically follows Rousseau in it's setup. So quite alot of criticisms leveled against rousseau hit the system aswell.

Further the slowing down of the decision process whilest also a disadvantage is preciscly for such situations an advantage due to all participants of the state be they States, NGO's, unions, and other organisations beeing able to participate in the decision making, allowing for a higher chance of a comprimise and therefore reaches a baseline consensus lowering overall implmentationc cost.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

That sounds suspiciously like something that Britain just decided they wanted no part of...

No not really, the EU is a long shot from legitimizing it's structures via institutionalized direct democratic possibilities of it's citizens which IS the big equalizer between inner swiss divides.

But it does share some of the hallmarks of a proto federational states. You can however argue about the structure of it beeing failed or wrong in their inception.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Why, you were ready to declare them terrorists 10 pages ago? Is it just their findings confirm your bias now?

Maybe don't jump to conclusions. that wasnt me.

I apologize, I misremembered the person making the claims.

Accepted.

 reds8n wrote:

One of the best things about being on a forum a long time is the way old friends pop back up into existence every now and again.

Spoiler:

Martin Shkreli is trying to use the coronavirus pandemic to get out of prison

" I am one of the few executives experienced in ALL aspects of drug development from molecule creation and hypothesis generation,” Shkreli wrote"

just need that guy who used to post about the size of asian genitals to return and it really be the end times indeed.

All we need now is a Zimmerman angle on this COVID-19 business.

This is my favorite headline through this whole thing.

‘The Purge’ Siren Used to Signal Curfew in Louisiana, Police Apologize


Apologizes if someone has posted it already.

France has a law against wearing face coverings.

Hey guuuuuuuuys! You thought attacking 5G networks was bad, how about attacking healthcare workers!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-coronavirus-fears-grow-doctors-and-nurses-face-abuse-attacks/ar-BB12kjM9?li=BBnb7Kz

Just in case your faith in humanity had a few sparks dancing around during all this.

 RiTides wrote:
Interestingly, a friend reached out to me today who had an extremely similar experience to what I had (father of young kids, experienced "severe shortness of breath plus total exhaustion", and was tested but came up negative). It also affected the father much worse than the rest of the family, just like we experienced.

Kind of reassures me that I'm not crazy / wasn't imagining the symptoms . But I'd really like to know what this is, since it's obviously not COVID-19, but not identified...

While I can see why you'd like to come to that conclusion, you might just both be stressed out/psychosomatics/situational hypochondriacs/seasonal allergics/etc.!

I wish the USA did have as effective and readily available testing as some are claiming we have - it would be very, very helpful if true and when it actually gets to that point.

We'll need it for Round 2...or the next one!

 gorgon wrote:
This is my favorite headline through this whole thing.

‘The Purge’ Siren Used to Signal Curfew in Louisiana, Police Apologize

That's amusing but the Irish Star's tour de force Go Out Your Back and Tan is peak coronavirus headline writing.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hey guuuuuuuuys! You thought attacking 5G networks was bad, how about attacking healthcare workers!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-coronavirus-fears-grow-doctors-and-nurses-face-abuse-attacks/ar-BB12kjM9?li=BBnb7Kz

Just in case your faith in humanity had a few sparks dancing around during all this.

But why!?!

Found out earlier someone I know, a good friend of my Dad, has died from this. He and his wife were both hospitalised - she made it back out, he didn't. He was a nice guy.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hey guuuuuuuuys! You thought attacking 5G networks was bad, how about attacking healthcare workers!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-coronavirus-fears-grow-doctors-and-nurses-face-abuse-attacks/ar-BB12kjM9?li=BBnb7Kz

Just in case your faith in humanity had a few sparks dancing around during all this.

But why!?!

It happens. I don't understand the logic behind it, but its a thing that's happened consistently (not often, but there are a few every time) during every Ebola flare-up.
Some communities treat the doctors and health care workers as the cause of the problems. It might be xenophobia or something else, but... it happens.
And while its inexcusable, it isn't entirely baseless. A healthcare worker does have a higher than average chance of infection, simply because they are around the infected.


As an aside though, this bothers me.

Scattered attacks have occurred in many parts of the world, including the United States. A nurse in Chicago told the local ABC7 TV channel last week that she had been punched in the eye on a public bus by a man who accused her of spreading the virus.

“Going to and from work in my scrubs, I often watch people take two steps back away from me” — and not just because of social distancing, she told the station, speaking on the condition that she not be identified. “I think the concern is that any health care provider is contagious themselves.”

I get it, and there's no reason to punch someone in the face. But I really dislike seeing nurses & etc in scrubs on public transportation. I at least want the illusion that the scrubs are clean, and they're not going to be after a bus/metro ride. I saw it a lot in Boston (and a lot of smoking nurses on the sidewalks outside hospitals, which just... ) Do the hospitals not provide staff lockers anymore?

Because things like this not only bring out the regular cretins, but also often brings out the idiot in people who are usually quite rational. The media doesn't help with their sensationalist fear mongering. It makes people crazy. That's why you get idiots shouting out of car windows at people who are out and about.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hey guuuuuuuuys! You thought attacking 5G networks was bad, how about attacking healthcare workers!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-coronavirus-fears-grow-doctors-and-nurses-face-abuse-attacks/ar-BB12kjM9?li=BBnb7Kz

Just in case your faith in humanity had a few sparks dancing around during all this.

Old news in uk where ambulances were vandalized and nhs workers were told to hide id badges as they were targeted to get free food certain companies offered for nhs workers. Pathetic. Get paid pittances(health service workers rarely get decent pay compared to what they do), risk health and even life and are in enchanced danger of robbery. And getting abused b? daily mail readers in uk for added fun.