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Not Online!!! wrote:
Is that only now discussed over yonder?
For us this is old hat. One of the more common themes of regular lines of conflict with Tradition.

Honestly, I am not sure. It's only recently I saw that guy talking about it, so it came to my mind. I think it has been discussed here and there, but maybe less here than in Europe. I don't know that is has been given too much academic attention though, before or even now, though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I am convinced more and more that the modern divide in our society is not race, it is not class, it is not education, it is not gender, but it is rural v. urban.

TBF, the term "Flyoverstates" perfectly exemplefies that.
And to be frank, the fact that there is nothing of worth inbetween the east and west coast, as the term kinda implies is an issue in how money and development is spent. And that has directly to do with HOW schooling is funded and how infrastructure is built and why these regions lack oppurtunity. You don't go to the midwest when chances are high taht you neither get an good enough workforce nor big enough market / respectively access to one due to lack of infrastructure, you just ignore that.

Only if you know nothing about them. Considering the major job markets and highly developed areas in the central and midwestern states, all you're doing is showing off how little you know.

For one thing, schools and infrastructure are funded individually at the state level, and if you think the 'flyover states' are missing large urban areas and infrastructure, your knowledge of American geography is just lacking. Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Austin, Dallas, Saint Louis, this list can go on for quite a while. Billings, Montana obviously isn't going to draw people at the same scale as NYC, but its still a major provide of jobs and resources for its region. The same is true all over.

Rural America starts about 30 miles (sometimes less) from major cities, and stops when it gets close to another one. You can be less than an hour away from Baltimore and DC and be knee deep in 'country.'

 H wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Is that only now discussed over yonder?
For us this is old hat. One of the more common themes of regular lines of conflict with Tradition.

Honestly, I am not sure. It's only recently I saw that guy talking about it, so it came to my mind. I think it has been discussed here and there, but maybe less here than in Europe. I don't know that is has been given too much academic attention though, before or even now, though.

Don't know about the Rest Of europe but Swiss history or political science is atleast, if the author is Swiss, dominated by mass movement and the traditional (this beeing one) conflict lines.

The other most common reasons for inner swiss shankings are religion and economy historically speaking.

I'd have assumed that other federally organized states would regard this issue also with a lot more keen eyes due to the whole federal shtick but it seems that isn't the case?

Edit:autocorrect...

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd have assumed that other federally organized states would regard this issue also with a lot more Kern eyes die to the whole federal shtick buft it seems that isn't the case?

Well, I am hardly knowledgeable on this really, but I think the phenomena is pretty known and documented, but like most things here, it is looked at along party lines and treated as a political issue maybe.

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I am convinced more and more that the modern divide in our society is not race, it is not class, it is not education, it is not gender, but it is rural v. urban.

TBF, the term "Flyoverstates" perfectly exemplefies that.
And to be frank, the fact that there is nothing of worth inbetween the east and west coast, as the term kinda implies is an issue in how money and development is spent. And that has directly to do with HOW schooling is funded and how infrastructure is built and why these regions lack oppurtunity. You don't go to the midwest when chances are high taht you neither get an good enough workforce nor big enough market / respectively access to one due to lack of infrastructure, you just ignore that.

Only if you know nothing about them. Considering the major job markets and highly developed areas in the central and midwestern states, all you're doing is showing off how little you know.

For one thing, schools and infrastructure are funded individually at the state level, and if you think the 'flyover states' are missing large urban areas and infrastructure, your knowledge of American geography is just lacking. Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Austin, Dallas, Saint Louis, this list can go on for quite a while. Billings, Montana obviously isn't going to draw people at the same scale as NYC, but its still a major provide of jobs and resources for its region. The same is true all over.

The fact that the term get's thrown around and it's use as a derogatory descriptor of rural dominated states will have impact because economy has just as much a psychological component as a rational one.
From an Investment standpoint also the list you presented is again dominated by urban regions you provided. Btw a center does not Make or compensate for the area surounding it unless the area gets propperly integrated or connected.
Further i never said they 'd miss urban centers.

Rural America starts about 30 miles (sometimes less) from major cities, and stops when it gets close to another one. You can be less than an hour away from Baltimore and DC and be knee deep in 'country.'

Isn't that the issue though?

As in doesn't that show an overly in Centers focused infrastructure when you are 30 miles out and allready in country?

There is often a pretty steep dropoff for those "country" areas just 30 miles outside of urban areas. Also no mention of the deep south, Mississippi, Alabama, etc, or Appalachia, which is basically a 205,000 square mile ghetto exploited to provide raw materials to power and build those urban areas, leaving only leveled mountains, poisoned waterways, and black lung for the residents.

Not Online!!! wrote:
As in doesn't that show an overly in Centers focused infrastructure when you are 30 miles out and allready in country?

It's a problem with our hypercapitalist model. There's actually a lot of programs that go towards improving infrastructure in rural counties, especially telecom infrastructure. Predictably, it's paid out to telecom companies in advance and they've done almost zero work, with no requirement to pay back the grants if they fail to actually make progress.

 Laughing Man wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
As in doesn't that show an overly in Centers focused infrastructure when you are 30 miles out and allready in country?

It's a problem with our hypercapitalist model. There's actually a lot of programs that go towards improving infrastructure in rural counties, especially telecom infrastructure. Predictably, it's paid out to telecom companies in advance and they've done almost zero work, with no requirement to pay back the grants if they fail to actually make progress.

Why?

IN other news, federal council is starting to reopen up, slowly.
In a as off now 3 step plan.

The economics discussion seems to be drifting a bit off topic mates...

Anyways, business as usual around where I am in San Diego. There are still people around, but few in number and doing a pretty good job of distancing. Most everyone has masks now if they are going into stores, and drive-thrus are definitely doing good business. The lockdown is significant, but people are managing. Certainly not at horrid as it is made out to be in the media (is it ever?) at least locally.

In the Uk we're gonna have at least another 3 weeks of lockdown. That'll be extended if people in London continue to display the complete lack of common sense that saw people gather and ignore the social distancing for the clap for carers on westminster bridge last night.

https://twitter.com/d_rafi1/status/1250864574984867856

 mekkiah wrote:
In the Uk we're gonna have at least another 3 weeks of lockdown. That'll be extended if people in London continue to display the complete lack of common sense that saw people gather and ignore the social distancing for the clap for carers on westminster bridge last night.

https://twitter.com/d_rafi1/status/1250864574984867856

BUT WHY!!!!

Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

The risk is that the longer lockdown is maintained, those who have no infection or immediate family/friends with infection are more and more likely to start shrugging off the lockdown measures. Today its a clapping party on the bridge; tomorrow its a BBQ; then its a playdate for the kids then before you know it lockdown and isolation are forgotten. The issue is that lockdown isn't something we prepared, trained nor are used too. It goes against basically how we have all grown up. So its very easy to let the standards slip - at which point the lockdown starts to fall apart and the infection runs rampant through the population again. Which results in another big spike and a prolonging of the lockdown before there's any unlock.

It's why its important not just to maintain lockdown and social isolation; but also the presentation of it. So having a load of police and public clapping in a social gathering on the bridge is dangerous. It sends the message that its ok and if that is then other social gathersing might be "ok" too.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

No it really isn't and saying otherwise is both misinformed and dangerous. Coincidentally (despite being wrong) it also fits with your views about governments interfering with our freedoms that you've expressed more than once in this thread. How convenient for you. The chance of being infected is in fact directly related to your proximity to an infected person. 2m distancing doesn't guarantee you won't get it, just like being right next to someone who is infected doesn't guarantee you will get it. The social distancing guidelines are in place to try to do as much as possible to reduce transmission of the disease, not some Orwellian plot to curtail our freedoms. The hypocrisy shown by a bunch of people claiming to support the NHS while doing the one thing they've been asked not to do in order to help that same organisation is staggering in its stupidity.

I'm sorry you've been inconvenienced by a worldwide pandemic of a deadly disease, I really am, it must be terrible for you. Normally, if people want to espouse their own absurd ideas about any subject under the sun I'd shrug and let them get on with it but in this case wilful ignorance and a misplaced appeal to "mah freedoms" can have a direct impact on the health and life-expectancy of others.

Yeah, in all seriousness, the way certain people are acting towards this virus really makes me question who they are. If you act like a man-baby that this life-destroying pandemic is an affront against you getting to play with dolls at the local game store, or you’re crying because you can’t get hobby supplies while people are dying from it, you aren’t worth listening to and you should seem professional help for the healthy dose of narcissism you’ve got going. I’ve seen people complain they can’t get GW stuff. I’ve seen people cry that the public bought safety masks and they can’t airbrush. What are you guys, 5? Holy hell, people are savage, spoiled brats.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

Tell that to Italy. where the mess started to spread like hell because of football match. Which in case you aren't aware is in stadium. Outside air.

Cram people into same space and infections rise.

But then again not surprising from you. Anything that's aimed at reducing infections is bad for you. Goverment shouöld do absolutely nothing to constrain spread of virus. 22,170 in Italy disagrees with you. Funny what happens even in outside air.

Their idiocy risks extending the lockdown.

See the 2m thing?

Let’s say I’ve got the virus, yeah? Right now, I’ve no symptoms. So far as I’m aware, I’m alright.

I go to Sainsbury’s to get some food and beer in during my lunch hour. Which I need to do, as I’m running low.

If people are properly observing social distancing? If I sneeze or cough unexpectedly, I might directly infect one or two people. Tops. They themselves won’t become infectious straight off the bat. So that damage, and the virus’s spread, is inherently limited.

If people aren’t? Perhaps crowding round me at certain shelves? How much further might it be spread?

And here’s the other risk. A human would be host to lord knows how many examples of that virus, and how many generations.

The more generations, the higher the chance of another random mutation - potentially into a version even more infectious, or even more deadly. Possibly both.

By taking these drastic measures, we reduce those risks as much as we possibly can. The hope is we can contain the spread, and therefore potential new iterations, until we can develop a vaccine and give it a proper, proper kicking. If we’re really lucky? We can knack it in a small enough period of vaccination it doesn’t really get a chance to adapt and mutate into a resistant strain,

The other, best reason? The more infections, the more overwhelmed any health service becomes. Reach that tipping point, and deaths will sky rocket, as we’ll run out of treatment resources.

 mekkiah wrote:
In the Uk we're gonna have at least another 3 weeks of lockdown. That'll be extended if people in London continue to display the complete lack of common sense that saw people gather and ignore the social distancing for the clap for carers on westminster bridge last night.

https://twitter.com/d_rafi1/status/1250864574984867856

Chase dog walkers with drones for going outside. Join in clapping shoulder to shoulder in central London. Those cheeky cops!

I am worried by the growing idea that maybe we should all wear masks.

So many people still do not get social distancing.

If they're incapable of standing 2m away from you, how are they going to manage wearing a clinical mask properly?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If they're incapable of standing 2m away from you, how are they going to manage wearing a clinical mask properly?

Most people without a beard can put a mask on correctly.

The issue is to remember that the mask is not protecting them its protection others from them. A mask only protects the wearer if its the right kind of mask; fitted right and removed and disposed of/cleaned correctly. All the latter parts are beyond most peoples awareness whilst supplies mean that its impractical to make top end highly protective masks for the whole population mandatory - since our health systems already have trouble getting a good supply of them.

So most of the mask wearing is cutting down on particles leaving their mouth/nose whilst they are infected, but unaware of their own infection (and this not self isolating).

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

Others have said why that is untrue.

Further the lack of discipline will further prolong the restrictions off your and all our freedom.
By essence they shot your freedom down for another 14 days after the incident atleast.

And you are happy about that?

 reds8n wrote:
Club owner says hundreds of Derby swingers have been left distraught by lockdown

But he says the Attic will soon reopen with a 'big bang'

Oh, well played !

There is a picture gallery -- no nudity so sorta work suitable -- discretion advised.

"The hot tub is drained out and cleaned every week."
....

.. is that good ?

I'd imagine Captain Tripps might be the least of their worries.

Slipspace wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oh my god, they're all going to drop dead! Oh wait, no they're not. They're outside, the chances of any virus spreading is minimal.

No it really isn't and saying otherwise is both misinformed and dangerous. Coincidentally (despite being wrong) it also fits with your views about governments interfering with our freedoms that you've expressed more than once in this thread. How convenient for you. The chance of being infected is in fact directly related to your proximity to an infected person. 2m distancing doesn't guarantee you won't get it, just like being right next to someone who is infected doesn't guarantee you will get it. The social distancing guidelines are in place to try to do as much as possible to reduce transmission of the disease, not some Orwellian plot to curtail our freedoms. The hypocrisy shown by a bunch of people claiming to support the NHS while doing the one thing they've been asked not to do in order to help that same organisation is staggering in its stupidity.

I'm sorry you've been inconvenienced by a worldwide pandemic of a deadly disease, I really am, it must be terrible for you. Normally, if people want to espouse their own absurd ideas about any subject under the sun I'd shrug and let them get on with it but in this case wilful ignorance and a misplaced appeal to "mah freedoms" can have a direct impact on the health and life-expectancy of others.

And I'm sorry that as a functioning adult I'm able to be concerned about more than one thing at a time... Its not a zero sum game. Going outside isn't 'killing people' despite the twitter cesspit dwellers shouting so every chance they get, and sorry that I'm able to think outside of what the media feed me.

Plenty of cops there, who obviously weren't concerned with the distance people were keeping. Probably doesn't help that most people don't know measurements and seem to think that 2 metres is actually 10 metres...

Hospitals in the UK aren't even near capacity, the nightingale has a handful of patients, and they're building a new one anyway.


Oh and nice ad hominem you managed to slip in there, I'll point that out so you don't do it again next time...

Independent thought is meaningless without proper methodology. You complain about people blindly following the media while espousing a view of free-thinking that clearly shows you haven't understood why and in what context it is valuable. In other words, you are doing exactly what you are complaining about.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Hospitals in the UK aren't even near capacity, the nightingale has a handful of patients, and they're building a new one anyway.

It varies greatly region to region - some are not getting much; others are overwhelmed. Many are suffering shortage of key resources like proper protective equipment; ventilators and other essential drugs and supplies to deal with corona patients. In addition this is the pressure they are under now with social isolation and lockdown - imagine if the disease was running rampant WITHOUT those measures. You'd have a vast spike in cases far beyond what we are seeing now; which would tip things into the NHS being completely unable to cope.

It's like the supermarkets and food. When everyone buys casually and in a calm measured manner there's ample food and excess for everyone. When everyone panics and rushes all in one week the food stocks get so heavily crippled that even a month later we are still seeing shortages of several products in the countryside- whilst urban areas are still limiting shoppers heavily and having even more shortfalls in stock.


Lockdown and social isolation measures are the same. They are measures to cut down the rate of infection spread dramatically so that the the infection speed through the population is at a level where the NHS is not overwhelmed beyond any control. And yet even now its clear that the aged and care home system is beyond overwhelmed by this situation.

I thought this was rather an awesome quote, especially after the wave of religious fervor surrounding Easter. You can be a celebrated champion of your faith while following medical advice.



Obviously he was wrong about the vector of Black Plague, and we're undoubtedly wrong about many aspects of NCOVID 19, but Martin Luther was doing the best they knew how.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I am convinced more and more that the modern divide in our society is not race, it is not class, it is not education, it is not gender, but it is rural v. urban.

It is a major thing. You can see it discussed here, for example, under the name of "the density divide."

Will WIlkerson was also on Sean Carroll's Mindscape Podcast talking about it as well.

While it is hard to say that the rest of the things you mention matter "less" the population density thing is yet another pretty big factor.

Is that only now discussed over yonder?
For us this is old hat. One of the more common themes of regular lines of conflict with Tradition.

It was a thing during the "Progressive Era" in this country around the turn of the 20th Century and then during the new Deal. However, the Depression and Two World Wars, and then the Cold War put an end to much of it. People have been able too focused externally to really start being radicalizing about it. What is interesting is the last two time the Urban/Rural divide explode it was facing "leftward" and this time it is more "Rightward" facing. Interesting..... I guess.



Edit: [rant]As a snarky aside, I am loving the (insert appropriate German word I can not spell) as an Introvert watching all these Extroverts lose their minds after a month or so of living in an Introvert world! Welcome MFers, I have had to live in your GD Introvert world my whole life, so buck up and handle yourself for a few weeks for the good of your fellow citizens and older generation. Instead, I hear you whining about "liberty", the "economy" and your "civil rights". No one cared about Introvert preferences before so now we don't have to care about extrovert preferences now! [/rant]

Of course, as the politically active majority, the Extroverts will get what they want and the self-distancing and lock downs will end very soon.

That Hospitals aren’t overwhelmed, and some barely whelmed? Is an endorsement of how the current plan is working nicely.

Infections are down, deaths are flattening. We keep this up for a few more weeks, and we’ll be better for it.

Release it now?

You’ve seen Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, yeah? The bit with the squashy spiky room? If we lift lockdown now, it’s about three seconds before Willy’s pert bum sets it all off again.

Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that the hospitals are not overwhelmed does not necessarily have to be because of any measures taken.

It's great the parachute has slowed you down, but don't take it off before you're actually safe on the ground.