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I would just like to address one thing in regards to the nightingale hospital. The nightingale hospital hasn't admitted only 41 people because that's all the people that needed help. Its only admitted 41 people because they cant staff the place.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Sweden, and for example, Finland, as I understand it though, as societies already basically practice social distancing as normal - they like their personal space a LOT.

OTOH are places like Angola, which have barely been hit at all (yet), but despite existing poverty have been in lockdown since mid-march now, and it has just been extended until may 10th at which point gvt will re-evaluate. And people are managing. So honestly, if even countries dirt-poor like in West Africa can manage to stay put for at least two months, the only reason anyone in rich places like Europe and the US can't or won't is pure selfishness.

Yes, I looked a while at the map of Sweden and the population of Sweden, and I can see why there may be some form of natural distancing at play there.

High concentration iso alcohol, like what you use to make homemade hand sanatizer, has been hard to find. I just cam across a lot of bottles of it at a dollar store and grabbed one automatically.

I'd bought it before for various regular uses and never had a bottle that was less than 90% pure so I didn't even check the level. Only after i got it home i found it was only 50%, which is too low to use as a reliable sanitizer..

Looks like some company was diluting it's higher concentration stuff to sell en masse and make a quick profit.

I suppose in a twilight zone ep the ceo of this company or someone he cared about would get covid from someone who'd bought his diluted alcohol to use as a sanitizer.

So if you see a bottle of iso alcohol on sale be damn sure to check the concentration before buying it. If it's less than 60% it's useless.

The norse countries in general are big on their personal space, which is something I can get behind. However they have the benefit of lower population densities, large open spaced countries and lots of places for solitude which is difficult to find in more densely populated mid European countries.

 Matt Swain wrote:
High concentration iso alcohol, like what you use to make homemade hand sanatizer, has been hard to find. I just cam across a lot of bottles of it at a dollar store and grabbed one automatically.

I'd bought it before for various regular uses and never had a bottle that was less than 90% pure so I didn't even check the level. Only after i got it home i found it was only 50%, which is too low to use as a reliable sanitizer..

Looks like some company was diluting it's higher concentration stuff to sell en masse and make a quick profit.

I suppose in a twilight zone ep the ceo of this company or someone he cared about would get covid from someone who'd bought his diluted alcohol to use as a sanitizer.

So if you see a bottle of iso alcohol on sale be damn sure to check the concentration before buying it. If it's less than 60% it's useless.

Moonshining it is then.


Thank GOD i live in a rural Part and get access to the things i need via alternatives.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

But why are we thinking of people as numbers? Sure, in the grand scheme of things, those people dont matter, none of us really do, a 1%(im pulling a number out of my ass here, im not sure of the rate of death vs survival, just using it for effect) death rate is nothing.....but those are still people, who matter to other people.

For some people out there, unless the sick and/or dying is someone they personally know and actually care about, then people are just numbers: they're someone else and someone else's problem. That's why people are out there with posters plastered with empty slogans about "the economy" or "freedom", but not so many with posters saying "my dad" or "my best friend".

Yeah, but you can assume that most people don't want their dad to die. Generally that doesn't need to be mentioned.

It's the same reason that those talking about the economic effects aren't talking about their kids. It's irrelevant to the conversation. It's not a matter of life vs money, as people seem to want to suggest. It's life vs life, if you want to boil it down to such an elementary level.

For example. Many are predicting that deaths due to cancer could actually be higher due to the lack of medical diagnosis and or treatment

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/science/coronavirus-crisis-could-trigger-cancer-21908757.amp

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
High concentration iso alcohol, like what you use to make homemade hand sanatizer, has been hard to find. I just cam across a lot of bottles of it at a dollar store and grabbed one automatically.

I'd bought it before for various regular uses and never had a bottle that was less than 90% pure so I didn't even check the level. Only after i got it home i found it was only 50%, which is too low to use as a reliable sanitizer..

Looks like some company was diluting it's higher concentration stuff to sell en masse and make a quick profit.

I suppose in a twilight zone ep the ceo of this company or someone he cared about would get covid from someone who'd bought his diluted alcohol to use as a sanitizer.

So if you see a bottle of iso alcohol on sale be damn sure to check the concentration before buying it. If it's less than 60% it's useless.

Moonshining it is then.


Thank GOD i live in a rural Part and get access to the things i need via alternatives.

Finally! A growth industry us mountain folks have been perfecting for generations!

For the record o don't reccomend doing this if you have no prior experience.
Or the right equipment....

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
The norse countries in general are big on their personal space, which is something I can get behind. However they have the benefit of lower population densities, large open spaced countries and lots of places for solitude which is difficult to find in more densely populated mid European countries.

Depends where you are.

London? Yep. A mighty busy place. Always has been.

Down in Kent, where I am? Far more room to oneself. Sure we’re not exactly Bumpkinville. Tunbridge Wells is rather cosmopolitan. But we’ve plenty of green spaces and woods and that to wander in.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

But why are we thinking of people as numbers? Sure, in the grand scheme of things, those people dont matter, none of us really do, a 1%(im pulling a number out of my ass here, im not sure of the rate of death vs survival, just using it for effect) death rate is nothing.....but those are still people, who matter to other people.

For some people out there, unless the sick and/or dying is someone they personally know and actually care about, then people are just numbers: they're someone else and someone else's problem. That's why people are out there with posters plastered with empty slogans about "the economy" or "freedom", but not so many with posters saying "my dad" or "my best friend".

Yeah, but you can assume that most people don't want their dad to die. Generally that doesn't need to be mentioned.

It's the same reason that those talking about the economic effects aren't talking about their kids. It's irrelevant to the conversation. It's not a matter of life vs money, as people seem to want to suggest. It's life vs life, if you want to boil it down to such an elementary level.

For example. Many are predicting that deaths due to cancer could actually be higher due to the lack of medical diagnosis and or treatment

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/science/coronavirus-crisis-could-trigger-cancer-21908757.amp

Absolutely. Framing the argument as "My neighbour has lung cancer and she will die and you're inhumane for talking about numbers when I'm talking about this" is really quite absurd. The reality is, when someone says "We're going to lose $500 billion dollars from this mistake and that is going to be bad for a lot of people", then they absolutely are thinking about your neighbour. And also your daughter, and your postman and your cat. They're thinking of far more people than you are. Human suffering can and should be quantified in numbers. We can't see everythign and everyone as an individual case study. That is madness. We take very large numbers of individual case studies and turn them into the useful semi-science of sociology. Everything can be measured in numbers. The universe is made of numbers. They're the only constant. Not your mother or your husband. Hundreds, thousands, millions of mothers and husbands, counted and accounted. If your best argument is "My mate James", then IDK what to say (apart from everything I've already said here).

Utilitariansim has massive issues though Jwbs, especially because it can easily be abused as a Legitimation for rather nasty things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
The norse countries in general are big on their personal space, which is something I can get behind. However they have the benefit of lower population densities, large open spaced countries and lots of places for solitude which is difficult to find in more densely populated mid European countries.

Depends where you are.

London? Yep. A mighty busy place. Always has been.

Down in Kent, where I am? Far more room to oneself. Sure we’re not exactly Bumpkinville. Tunbridge Wells is rather cosmopolitan. But we’ve plenty of green spaces and woods and that to wander in.

Oh yeah, I'm talking about the countries in general. I watch a Norwegian guy on YouTube called bjorn anders bull hansen, and he talked about when he goes to European cities, and how he was uncomfortable with how close people sit and things like that, which as I said, I agree with. On trains I will often stand in the atriums by the luggage rather than sit close to other people. I usually only sit if there are plenty of spare seats. I don't really have a problem with people sitting next to me, I'd just rather not if possible.

Were lucky in Oxfordshire too. We have the Chilterns all around us, with lots of open space. I've only ever been to Kent once. To Canterbury. It's a part of the country I haven't spent much time in.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Utilitariansim has massive issues though Jwbs, especially because it can easily be abused as a Legitimation for rather nasty things.

That is also true, but I think in this situation no one is really pushing for pure utilitarianism. God knows I wouldn't want it.. A lot of its concepts are anathema to my beliefs and philosophies. Its more calling for a balanced approach, and not just following the main narrative, which has not really given any real consideration to those other issues.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Utilitariansim has massive issues though Jwbs, especially because it can easily be abused as a Legitimation for rather nasty things.

Yes that's true. Definitely the number needs to have a human face. But imo it's a big mashup of all the human faces, not just that one face of yours or mine or anyone else's nearest and dearest.

He states that everything can be quantified and accounted.
That is the purest Version to my knowledge.

Also i Find it not to be the case that economy Stands behind.nr 1 Concern here was maintaining as much Off the economy as possible in conjunction with buissness , unions and people/government. So no it is at most an issue in your Region seemingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWBS wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Utilitariansim has massive issues though Jwbs, especially because it can easily be abused as a Legitimation for rather nasty things.

Yes that's true. Definitely the number needs to have a human face. But imo it's a big mashup of all the human faces, not just that one face of yours or mine or anyone else's nearest and dearest.

Sure however then you can't Account anymore for anything.

And i happen to agree with many points with qar as insofar if we manage to not get a decent size Part Off out economy working again and maintaining it at that condition we will get massive issues, i just disagree to a degree on certain issues including protests.

However we should not forget that since 2008 alot of states failed to do their homework economically. And that a recession or even depression was inevitable.

You can't disconnect economy form human dignity, happiness, health, everything else. "Economics" is not a dirty word. It definitely should have a place of importance in any covid discussion.

JWBS wrote:
You can't disconnect economy form human dignity, happiness, health, everything else. "Economics" is not a dirty word. It definitely should have a place of importance in any covid discussion.

Fundamental disagree, neither dignity nor happiness in the Truest sense are connected to economy. (Alone)
Repsectively i feel Like an over valueing in purely economy based focus is happening but that is a philosophical Debate which infamously tend to be never Finished

Edit: autocorrect is the Name of my dakka mobile experience.

Not Online!!! wrote:

JWBS wrote:
You can't disconnect economy form human dignity, happiness, health, everything else. "Economics" is not a dirty word. It definitely should have a place of importance in any covid discussion.

Fundamental disagree, neither dignity nor happiness in the Truest sense are connected to economy. (Alone)
Repsectively i feel Like an over valueing in purely economy based focus is happening but that is a philosophical Debate which infamously tend to be never Finished

Edit: autocorrect is the Name of my dakka mobile experience.

No, of course, I'm not saying that economics is the only (or even the primary) driver of human happiness. It is not so in my case. But, in the end, the importance cannot be denied. You live in Switzerland. With respect, you've never even had to think of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs Basic needs (neither have I). For many people around the worls, this is reality. And that's just the start. When you think of everything else that relies wholly on economic prosperity, it's impossible to separate economics from human happiness (In my opinion. I'm not an economist, but I am a human).

JWBS wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

JWBS wrote:
You can't disconnect economy form human dignity, happiness, health, everything else. "Economics" is not a dirty word. It definitely should have a place of importance in any covid discussion.

Fundamental disagree, neither dignity nor happiness in the Truest sense are connected to economy. (Alone)
Repsectively i feel Like an over valueing in purely economy based focus is happening but that is a philosophical Debate which infamously tend to be never Finished

Edit: autocorrect is the Name of my dakka mobile experience.

No, of course, I'm not saying that economics is the only (or even the primary) driver of human happiness. It is not so in my case. But, in the end, the importance cannot be denied. You live in Switzerland. With respect, you've never even had to think of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs Basic needs (neither have I). For many people around the worls, this is reality. And that's just the start. When you think of everything else that relies wholly on economic prosperity, it's impossible to separate economics from human happiness (In my opinion. I'm not an economist, but I am a human).

On a economic scale i think the worst will happen in countries that are developping but not there yet, Like india, These have neither the luxury of stopping nor of working as buissness as usual.
Further These developping countries also have often lackluster sanitation and mobile populations.

Also the basic needs approach is by far not undisputed or as easy as the english article makes it out to be. The german Version allready splits up into psychological and political subparts and notes various effects of crisis etc on determination of what Accounts for a basic need.

I don't get the cancer argument. Yes, people don't always get the treatment they need because of the lock down. But the alternative to that is not getting the treatment they need because the healthcare system is overwhelmed by Coronavirus cases.

People are going to die more from other causes yes, but are they going to die more from other causes with or without a lock down?

Car accidents are a leading cause of death in the US. One small perk of the lockdowns is that should be down substantially.

You say that, but in the UK it seems some people have been taking advantage and doing ridiculous speeds on some roads. There has been a big uptick in speeding fines aparantly.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
You say that, but in the UK it seems some people have been taking advantage and doing ridiculous speeds on some roads. There has been a big uptick in speeding fines aparantly.

Well Overall there's less trafic here aswell but the reckless and overly dumb now drift along some smaller mountain Passes and speeding whilest Overall down has gotten alot more severe...

 Ouze wrote:
Car accidents are a leading cause of death in the US. One small perk of the lockdowns is that should be down substantially.

Road traffic, overdose and suicide. Road deaths down, suicides and overdoses up (sorry, that sounds really glib, but the reality of it is grim).

Is that actually true and happening or is it just an assumption at this point?

 Alpharius wrote:
Is that actually true and happening or is it just an assumption at this point?

IDk. I know economic downturns lead to more self-destruction (I say again, I'm no economist. This is just common knowledge). I think the traffic fatalities is true though - I've read (before reading on Dakka) that road deaths are down right now. Seems legit, when you think of how many fewer cars are on the road (I live near a heavily trafficked road and I can safely say, yes, traffic is definitely down!)

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
High concentration iso alcohol, like what you use to make homemade hand sanatizer, has been hard to find. I just cam across a lot of bottles of it at a dollar store and grabbed one automatically.

I'd bought it before for various regular uses and never had a bottle that was less than 90% pure so I didn't even check the level. Only after i got it home i found it was only 50%, which is too low to use as a reliable sanitizer..

Looks like some company was diluting it's higher concentration stuff to sell en masse and make a quick profit.

I suppose in a twilight zone ep the ceo of this company or someone he cared about would get covid from someone who'd bought his diluted alcohol to use as a sanitizer.

So if you see a bottle of iso alcohol on sale be damn sure to check the concentration before buying it. If it's less than 60% it's useless.

Moonshining it is then.


Thank GOD i live in a rural Part and get access to the things i need via alternatives.

I know you were joking, but now I have to ask if moonshine alcohol, ethanol, is as effective at killing germs as isopropyl alcohol is? I know isopropyl alcohol is more effective at killing people than ethanol alcohol is. I know it makes a better paint stripper.

Not Online!!! wrote:
For the record o don't reccomend doing this if you have no prior experience.
Or the right equipment....

Does having watched all the seasons of M*A*S*H count? Finest kind!

Now that you say that - I think I remember some sort of series specifically about Moonshiners? It wasn't a documentary - it was a fictional drama series. Maybe something from netflix or another non-network production? Anyone know what I'm thinking of? (2015 onwards, not some throwback pre-internet TV series).
/Edit it was this - Outsiders - it was quite good

I just noticed something.

Most of the people who are out screaming to "end the quarantine" and "give me back my freedom!" tend to belong to the same part of the social spectrum that is almost always in favor of more prisons and more people in prison for longer times.

Oh, the irony.

Nahh man thats just a pic from my last family reunion.