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Yeah, we still have no real AIDS vaccine last I heard. (IF someone can prove me wrong, hey, I'd be happy!)

Here's something some people may like, It's NSFW, if that still matters, and a lot of people hate this guy, but for once even his worst enemies are saying he got something right. Watch it is you want a possible angle on what could cause the next big epidemic and what =me might be able to do to mitigate the changes of it.

https://www.facebook.com/Maher/videos/279000013102756/


It's got some disturbing images of what happens to animals in battery farms which could hurt some people, be advised.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Yeah, we still have no real AIDS vaccine last I heard. (IF someone can prove me wrong, hey, I'd be happy!)

Closest with regards to HIV is PrEP. Basically taking doses of the drugs which are used to treat HIV, either every day or a larger dose at different times around the risky activity (double dose 2 to 24 hours before, one 24 hours after activity and then one 48 hours after).

So we have reached the stage where you can effectively prevent yourself from contracting HIV even if you engage in risky behaviour. But it is more akin to birth control tablets than what most people would think of if you said vaccine (i.e. one course and you're done except for maybe some boosters)

On the flip side, we eradicated smallpox, showing that it is possible to wipe out viruses using vaccines. This obviously doesn't mean that a vaccine against COVID is going to work, but at least it's plausible.

New Zealand says it has effectively stopped transmission of the disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52436658

Whilst I expect it to be a bit too early to say that, I'm very jealous of the way NZ have handled this.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Yeah, we still have no real AIDS vaccine last I heard. (IF someone can prove me wrong, hey, I'd be happy!)

Closest with regards to HIV is PrEP. Basically taking doses of the drugs which are used to treat HIV, either every day or a larger dose at different times around the risky activity (double dose 2 to 24 hours before, one 24 hours after activity and then one 48 hours after).

So we have reached the stage where you can effectively prevent yourself from contracting HIV even if you engage in risky behaviour. But it is more akin to birth control tablets than what most people would think of if you said vaccine (i.e. one course and you're done except for maybe some boosters)

There’s also existing treatments which can stop someone carrying HIV from passing it on.

Worryingly for COVID-19, I’ve seen news reports where Those That Know These Things aren’t convinced infection provides immunity.

Herbington wrote:
New Zealand says it has effectively stopped transmission of the disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52436658

Whilst I expect it to be a bit too early to say that, I'm very jealous of the way NZ have handled this.

Nz is smaller, has less people and therefore better controll aswell as beeing an island and highly developped.

Not to say it was expected but they did what many a somewhat isolated country could've done.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Herbington wrote:
New Zealand says it has effectively stopped transmission of the disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52436658

Whilst I expect it to be a bit too early to say that, I'm very jealous of the way NZ have handled this.

Nz is smaller, has less people and therefore better controll aswell as beeing an island and highly developped.

Not to say it was expected but they did what many a somewhat isolated country could've done.

It also had a Government that was quick and decisive, and was also clear in what it was expecting from its citizens.

Being an island hasn't helped the UK.

Also I think that NZ and Australia have much more experience and awareness of "containment" in general terms. They are much hotter on the import and risks of importing alien species. Whilst countries like the UK have regulations but its my impression we are less hot on it than we could be (its not helped that we've already had loads of invasive species damage and suchlike after generations of invaders and conquest such as the Romans, but also from exploring and adventuring Victorians bringing all and sundry back from their exploits in the empire.

Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nosey, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed easily).

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nose, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed).

Totally agree. Where I am at, two weeks ago I saw 1 in 15 people wearing masks when at the grocery store. Yesterday, I saw 1 in 50. I even had to stop at a clinic for an unrelated issue, and no one on the staff had masks, gloves, etc. There was nothing different from normal except a sign on the door.

Worse, people were bringing their families shopping and acting like everything was "back to normal" because they WANT it to be back to normal so badly.

My state hasn't even really been hit yet, and we have only tested 8K people. We only test those in the high risk category, showing symptoms, who have come in contact with a known case; so I am pretty sure most of our publicly reported numbers are being under reported because we simply do not test people. Even the ones who have the symptoms because we have so few test kits we can only test the most impacted.

I have no idea what is driving these decisions, but it is getting hard to look at and assume the best intentions.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nosey, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed easily).

Yep. That is the problem with giving in to these kinds of protests. They won't stop at getting what they were asking for, they will then start asking for something else, something more. And they will keep doing that. It isn't actually about protesting for, it is entirely about protesting against.

It's like paying a ransom/blackmail. The person extorting the money out of you isn't going to stop until they feel they have got absolutely everything they can out of you and when that happens you still have no guarantee they will do what they said they would.

It's also problematic because these protests are presenting themselves as "grassroots" while they are in reality being organized & funded by outside agitators with fairly close ties to the current administration.

This, by the by, is the thing I referred to down in the thread about moderation. There's no real way to discuss this without going into politics.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nosey, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed easily).

I'm worried for the US too. We get a daily press conference every day, and this is one of the slides they produce and update daily. There's caveats to apply with regard to how deaths are recorded, and allowances for the relative scale of the populations, but even so, the shape of the US line is so different to how so many other countries. On top of which, I heard the phrase "you take an elevator to the peak and then the stairs down again" yesterday, and given how long it seems to be taking those peaks to drop in other countries that have apparently reached them, I fear the US has a lot further to run before things are done.

 Easy E wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nose, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed).

Totally agree. Where I am at, two weeks ago I saw 1 in 15 people wearing masks when at the grocery store. Yesterday, I saw 1 in 50. I even had to stop at a clinic for an unrelated issue, and no one on the staff had masks, gloves, etc. There was nothing different from normal except a sign on the door.

Worse, people were bringing their families shopping and acting like everything was "back to normal" because they WANT it to be back to normal so badly.

My state hasn't even really been hit yet, and we have only tested 8K people. We only test those in the high risk category, showing symptoms, who have come in contact with a known case; so I am pretty sure most of our publicly reported numbers are being under reported because we simply do not test people. Even the ones who have the symptoms because we have so few test kits we can only test the most impacted.

I have no idea what is driving these decisions, but it is getting hard to look at and assume the best intentions.

I understand your frustration I see a lot of the same behaviors here in my state (NC). Thankfully I can work from home and I'm only going out once a week to restock on groceries but at the grocery store few people wear masks or PPE. It's not surprising that only half or less of the people wear masks because they've been in short supply for weeks but none of the employees wear them either. Obviously the employees in the deli section still wear masks and hair nets because they're doing food prep but none of the shelf stockers or cashiers had PPE. The store put big sneeze guard type plexiglass panels up around the registers but that's it. So while I was wearing a homemade mask from my sister in law I'm still getting groceries that have been handled by staff without PPE so I'm not sure how much benefit I get from wearing the mask.

Our state is also limiting testing to people who are most likely already sick so we're very likely undercounting cases. My wife is a nurse and the clinic where she works is running out of PPE so she has to reuse masks while they wait for a restock. Thankfully she's not handling covid19 patients anymore but there's still widespread shortages.

The governors and state legislatures are in a very tought spot. The virus isn't going away anytime soon, it's going to keep bouncing around the country, we'll keep getting new cases and we likely won't have a vaccine until at least 2021 and we're already seeing new strains. I've yet to see an official articulate just what conditions need to be met in order for it to be safe to reopen. Our governor extended the lockdown to May 8 but I don't think conditions will be very different then. I doubt we'll get hard hit like NYC but we won't be virus free either. In the meantime the economy is getting wrecked.

With over 26 million people unemployed states are paying out unemployment benefits at an unprecedented rate while their tax revenues plummet. Nobody is driving, oil is at -$37/barrel so gas tax revenues are way down so there's a huge hole in the infrastructure budget. Nobody is going out or spending a lot of money so sales tax revenue is down. The longer the lockdown lasts the more businesses close, the more people get laid off and the longer they're collecting unemployment lowers income tax revenue that will get collected next year and fewer businesses and employees means less payroll tax revenue. That's a really tough spot for states to be in. We need a functioning economy to generate tax revenue to fund government services. To get a functional economy we need to end the lockdown and to end the lockdown we need....I don't know what.

Whenever the lockdown does end things won't just go back to "normal." The pandemic and lockdown are going to affect people's spending habits and social habits. We won't know the extent of those changes until the lockout finally ends. Knowing that the virus will still be out there whenever the lockdown ends means that it's unlikely that people will just act like it never happened and go back to doing whatever they were doing before. It's guaranteed that states are going to need to address budget shortfalls and that's never a good thing. The sooner we can get through this the better. The longer the lockdown lasts the more suffering it causes.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
You know there's nothing stopping you going for walks in the countryside right?

There might be no law against it but speaking as a farmer I would ask people not to travel to the countryside. I can’t stop work and if I get sick my animals won’t have anyone to look after them. Walkers and cyclists are stopping to hang over my gates daily. Runners spit into fields and hedges. These are my workplaces, gates are my doorhandles. My farm is about 3 miles from the edges of a city and from early morning I’m plagued with walkers, cyclists and runners. Yesterday I could hardly get down a narrow road in a tractor for cyclists. On part of the farm we have a council war memorial; the council have put signs telling people the memorial is closed and have put large stones across the car park. Cyclists and walkers just go round the sign, and climb over the stones.
Truth is we don’t want you here, we live here, we work here. We are not furloughed, we can’t or livestock suffer or die.

I I have no idea why I have an American flag beside my profile. I’m British, rule Britannia and all that stuff

Knockagh, I'll adjust the flag on your profile - might take a day or two to kick in (and won't effect old posts - but at least you'll have a union jack going forward ).

As for the countryside, I think people should feel free to exercise but some of what you describe is obviously going too far - no one should be going into closed areas, or encroaching on your farmland. Sorry to hear that!

 Knockagh wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
You know there's nothing stopping you going for walks in the countryside right?

There might be no law against it but speaking as a farmer I would ask people not to travel to the countryside. I can’t stop work and if I get sick my animals won’t have anyone to look after them. Walkers and cyclists are stopping to hang over my gates daily. Runners spit into fields and hedges. These are my workplaces, gates are my doorhandles. My farm is about 3 miles from the edges of a city and from early morning I’m plagued with walkers, cyclists and runners. Yesterday I could hardly get down a narrow road in a tractor for cyclists. On part of the farm we have a council war memorial; the council have put signs telling people the memorial is closed and have put large stones across the car park. Cyclists and walkers just go round the sign, and climb over the stones.
Truth is we don’t want you here, we live here, we work here. We are not furloughed, we can’t or livestock suffer or die.

I I have no idea why I have an American flag beside my profile. I’m British, rule Britannia and all that stuff

Well, whilst I respect what you're saying, people have a right to walk in the countryside,(provided its not private land obviously) the benefits of getting outside are clear, so I'd advise anyone who wants to walk in the countryside to do so.

And I don't condone casual spitting. I don't know why anyone does that. But it doesn't mean everyone is that way.

I also agree, cyclists suck, but then they also have rights, so we just got to deal with them I guess.
Also, there is this. Your chances of infection are very low outdoors.

Prestor Jon wrote:
With over 26 million people unemployed states are paying out unemployment benefits at an unprecedented rate while their tax revenues plummet. Nobody is driving, oil is at -$37/barrel so gas tax revenues are way down so there's a huge hole in the infrastructure budget. Nobody is going out or spending a lot of money so sales tax revenue is down. The longer the lockdown lasts the more businesses close, the more people get laid off and the longer they're collecting unemployment lowers income tax revenue that will get collected next year and fewer businesses and employees means less payroll tax revenue. That's a really tough spot for states to be in. We need a functioning economy to generate tax revenue to fund government services. To get a functional economy we need to end the lockdown and to end the lockdown we need....I don't know what.

Far more test kits and materials, far more people to do the testing, more engagement and coordination at the federal level, a unified populace, governments that can govern, new treatments, eventually a vaccine (even if only a partially effective)...it's a lengthy list. And it doesn't seem like any of the above are coming anytime soon.

My heart tells me we'll find a way, but my mind says that we're in some real doodoo all around. We need to get lucky and have some big breaks go our way.

 RiTides wrote:

As for the countryside, I think people should feel free to exercise but some of what you describe is obviously going too far - no one should be going into closed areas, or encroaching on your farmland. Sorry to hear that!

It's not as simple as this in the UK. A lot of farmland in the UK has what are called 'public rights of way' and hence the public are allowed to travel across certain areas. The land owners are then responsible for maintaining the routes etc and the public have to act appropriately (dogs on leads with cattle/sheep, no littering, no picking the vegetables - though there is always the minority).

The likelihood of picking up something as a farmer from people of public rights of way is extremely low though. Most countryside workers are already wearing some form of protective equipment. It's the fear of the virus that is more problematic and realistically the populace being scattered across the countryside is much more effective way of isolation than going out to a few city parks which would be packed. It is much more likely that you would pick it up from someone delivering animal feed, doing the milk collections than you would from the random stranger having touched a gate rail. In fact Weil's disease is much greater risk than COVID19 working in the countryside, so if you are protecting yourself from this disease you are mostly protecting yourself from COVID19.

Wearing PPE is not all there is when it comes to PPE. Wearing is only part of the battle; you've also got to have correct putting on and (more importantly) taking off programs. You also have to have proper procedures when wearing it. Otherwise all it is doing is keeping your underclothes and skin clean.


A farmer is unlikely to worry about correct removal measures unless they've been working with poisons that very day. So chances are they are wiping their hands on their overalls; wearing them several days in a row; pulling gloves on and off all day without correct procedure to not touch the outside with their skin. Wiping their hands on those same overalls - heading off and wiping down an eating lunch or having a cuppa and a biscuit and then continuing on.


The only ones that might day to day have the proper PPE wearing and practice are those working in intensive farming units like chickens and the like and they are mostly going to be working indoor/confined spaces rather than out in the fields.



That said in good sunshine etc... the chances are slimmer that they'll catch corona unless they bump into the walkers/etc... The greater risk is people trampling crops; leaving gates open; moving through areas in large volumes (even on rights of way if you get a LOT of use it will wear the path down and people will drift off path - footfall can cause all kinds of damage).

Or things like this https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/two-horses-die-after-lockdown-walkers-picnic-in-their-field-713242

Where livestock can be directly at risk from people who have no ill wishes to them, but are generally ignorant of the potential risks.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

As for the countryside, I think people should feel free to exercise but some of what you describe is obviously going too far - no one should be going into closed areas, or encroaching on your farmland. Sorry to hear that!

It's not as simple as this in the UK. A lot of farmland in the UK has what are called 'public rights of way' and hence the public are allowed to travel across certain areas. The land owners are then responsible for maintaining the routes etc and the public have to act appropriately (dogs on leads with cattle/sheep, no littering, no picking the vegetables - though there is always the minority).

The likelihood of picking up something as a farmer from people of public rights of way is extremely low though. Most countryside workers are already wearing some form of protective equipment. It's the fear of the virus that is more problematic and realistically the populace being scattered across the countryside is much more effective way of isolation than going out to a few city parks which would be packed. It is much more likely that you would pick it up from someone delivering animal feed, doing the milk collections than you would from the random stranger having touched a gate rail. In fact Weil's disease is much greater risk than COVID19 working in the countryside, so if you are protecting yourself from this disease you are mostly protecting yourself from COVID19.

You rarely even see the milk collector or the meal man. It’s all done on the phone. Meal drivers don’t even see anyone in the feed mill. They put their order into a computer and it sticks it into the lorry. Meal is blown into bulk bins on farms. Milk is collected by a regular driver who never sees anyone. The only risk we have is large volume animal movements to the abattoir as we need a lot of labour for this but it’s being done by teams that are working together daily. A friend of mine died recently after weeks on a ventilator and the family had awful trouble getting workers to come to the farm to remove the animals when they were ready for slaughter. The family had to arrange this on top of the funeral. The day he was buried his son and wife were up from 5 power washing yards and stores and spraying everywhere with Glutaraldehyde.

My father told me not to go were I wasn’t wanted and urban dwellers should respect rural food producers at least for a little while. We really really don’t want you in the countryside. Everyone I talk to is saying the same. Stay at home and let workers work safely.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sometimes I have a hard time being anything but pessimistic about what's going on in the US, because it seems like no one wants to take anything seriously. Here in Michigan, while things are going to be opened up that were protested about (previously closed portions of big box stores, etc), NOW the rumor is that the same group wants to protest about the self-titled "tyrannical" demand that we all wear masks in enclosed/close public spaces.

Just last night, the neighbors across the street had about 9 cars in their driveway and about 15 people at a time at a yard party, though different cars kept coming and going all day (not being nosey, but I was working in the front yard so I noticed easily).

I'm worried for the US too. We get a daily press conference every day, and this is one of the slides they produce and update daily. There's caveats to apply with regard to how deaths are recorded, and allowances for the relative scale of the populations, but even so, the shape of the US line is so different to how so many other countries. On top of which, I heard the phrase "you take an elevator to the peak and then the stairs down again" yesterday, and given how long it seems to be taking those peaks to drop in other countries that have apparently reached them, I fear the US has a lot further to run before things are done.

Yes, we have a lot of deaths. However that graph is misleading because it just shows total deaths and isn't per capita. The US has a lower per capita death rate than Spain, Italy, France, Belgium and the UK, and less deaths than all of Europe combined.

The US should never be compared 1 on 1 with other countries, especially in Europe. Its misleading.

Very true, its what 50 European countries worth in size? Heck you've got national parks bigger than the UK!

So yep its hard to compare stats like that, it looks shocking but then you're comparing a vastly bigger nation to a selection of smaller ones.

I think the big issue with the USA is this rising protesting and almost defiance of basic measures other countries are taking - in some states. I think when other countries are suffering so heavily and you've got US states protesting and fighting against measures designed to save them - then potentially there might be a huge time bomb in a few weeks time.

Numbers wise the US has been average so far, not terrible, not great. Of course the US is still slightly behind curve wise, which means a lot for deaths if you see how slowly that slopes down in Italy/Spain.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Yes, we have a lot of deaths. However that graph is misleading because it just shows total deaths and isn't per capita. The US has a lower per capita death rate than Spain, Italy, France, Belgium and the UK, and less deaths than all of Europe combined.

And the US has higher deaths per capita than; Portugal, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Norway, Estonia, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Moldova, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lithuania, Poland, Croatia, Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Kosovo and Slovakia

The US should never be compared 1 on 1 with other countries, especially in Europe. Its misleading.

Why not? American exceptionalism?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Numbers wise the US has been average so far, not terrible, not great. Of course the US is still slightly behind curve wise, which means a lot for deaths if you see how slowly that slopes down in Italy/Spain.

The US has also been far behind on testing, and there are legitimate concerns that some areas plain aren't reporting because of political factors.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Numbers wise the US has been average so far, not terrible, not great. Of course the US is still slightly behind curve wise, which means a lot for deaths if you see how slowly that slopes down in Italy/Spain.

The US has also been far behind on testing, and there are legitimate concerns that some areas plain aren't reporting because of political factors.

Yes, but this can be said for certain European countries too, the lack of testing that is. The real statistics will come months from now, when countries can start comparing average deaths with previous years. Its harder to hide those numbers.

not all countryside is farmland, and without any disrespect, the countryside isnt yours to instruct people on.

personally I avoid farmland as much as possible anyway, I prefer woodland and water courses as areas to walk, but if people are walking around, minding their own business, leave them to it. live and let live.

 gorgon wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
With over 26 million people unemployed states are paying out unemployment benefits at an unprecedented rate while their tax revenues plummet. Nobody is driving, oil is at -$37/barrel so gas tax revenues are way down so there's a huge hole in the infrastructure budget. Nobody is going out or spending a lot of money so sales tax revenue is down. The longer the lockdown lasts the more businesses close, the more people get laid off and the longer they're collecting unemployment lowers income tax revenue that will get collected next year and fewer businesses and employees means less payroll tax revenue. That's a really tough spot for states to be in. We need a functioning economy to generate tax revenue to fund government services. To get a functional economy we need to end the lockdown and to end the lockdown we need....I don't know what.

Far more test kits and materials, far more people to do the testing, more engagement and coordination at the federal level, a unified populace, governments that can govern, new treatments, eventually a vaccine (even if only a partially effective)...it's a lengthy list. And it doesn't seem like any of the above are coming anytime soon.

My heart tells me we'll find a way, but my mind says that we're in some real doodoo all around. We need to get lucky and have some big breaks go our way.

I feel the same. I'm hopeful that things will work out and I know covid19 isnt an existential threat but I also recognize how terrible our government's response has been. Some people are stuck at home telecommuting and other people are stuck at home watching their lives and livlihoods fall apart and the government is basically telling both groups to just keep doing it indefinitely. What is the end goal? How will we know we reached that point?

You're right we need a lot more testing capacity, they've been promising to increase testing in places like NY and NJ for a while now but still aren't reaching that goal. I don't know when or how we'll increase testing and what those means of testing will be. I understand the frustration of wanting to get back to normal and for people needing to get back to earning a living but without widespread accessible testing why would people take the risk? We can't even take our kids across town to visit their grandparents because it's too risky so I'm definitely not taking them to a restaurant or movie theather or barbershop that could have infected people. The virus isn't going away anytime soon and we are really lacking a coherent plan, timetable and signs of progress.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


Yes, we have a lot of deaths. However that graph is misleading because it just shows total deaths and isn't per capita. The US has a lower per capita death rate than Spain, Italy, France, Belgium and the UK, and less deaths than all of Europe combined.

And the US has higher deaths per capita than; Portugal, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Norway, Estonia, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Moldova, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lithuania, Poland, Croatia, Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Kosovo and Slovakia

The US should never be compared 1 on 1 with other countries, especially in Europe. Its misleading.

Why not? American exceptionalism?

No because a country like Hungary has 10 million people spread across 36,000 square miles and the USA has 330 million people spread out over 3,800,000 square miles. Hungary is the size of the state of Indiana and has the population of the state of Michigan. It's an apples to oranges comparison. It's like saying France and Luxembourg are equivalent countries.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
not all countryside is farmland, and without any disrespect, the countryside isnt yours to instruct people on.

personally I avoid farmland as much as possible anyway, I prefer woodland and water courses as areas to walk, but if people are walking around, minding their own business, leave them to it. live and let live.

Ohh boy, and people wonder why urban rural divide exists.