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No, it's cool. There are often a lot of people that simply should not get signal boosted that do.

I had to break Quarantine to go to the Grocery stores the other day. I got enough stuff for another 2-3 weeks.

At the only Wal-mart within 2 hours drive, I saw about 1 in 20 people wearing a face covering. Most people were in singles or couples only. It was better than I expected since my location is very rural, very Red, and not very hard hit at all.

I then went to a local grocery store and found about 1 in 50 people wearing a mask. Here there were family groups shopping and no regard for social distancing. in fact, I was looked at askance for following the CDC recommendations.

I look forward to when tourist season opens up in about three weeks...... :(

 skyth wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
The only Federal assistance sent to people was a one time $1200 payment

And the $600 per week Federal addition to unemployment for people affected by the Covid situation. This includes self-employed people and people with partnerships.

Also, open economy is not the only solution. There is also the solution of 'Government steps in to help people pay for things' solution that involves less people dying...

You are correct and I would love to see our government produce legislation that is a rational, pragmatic response to helping our country, especially those suffering the most under this pandemic, the help they need in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening and I don't see it happening anytime soon. The Federal government could do more to help the states afford to pay out the unemployment benefits to 30,000,000+ people instead of just tacking on a few hundred dollars. States are already in difficult positions with their budgets and Congress doesn't seem eager to help. Why make people file for unemployment in the first place? Why couldnt we just send Federal money to either small businesses directly or as lump sums to states to administer to small business so they could just keep people on their payrolls and not fire them at all? We've all been conscripted into the safety effort for the greater good by the government but the government is doing very little to combat all the negative consequences of self quarrantining. If the government declared the lockdown and then refuses to help alleviate the burdens of the lockdown it's logical for people to push for the lockdown to end.

 Easy E wrote:
I had to break Quarantine to go to the Grocery stores the other day. I got enough stuff for another 2-3 weeks.

At the only Wal-mart within 2 hours drive, I saw about 1 in 20 people wearing a face covering. Most people were in singles or couples only. It was better than I expected since my location is very rural, very Red, and not very hard hit at all.

I then went to a local grocery store and found about 1 in 50 people wearing a mask. Here there were family groups shopping and no regard for social distancing. in fact, I was looked at askance for following the CDC recommendations.

I look forward to when tourist season opens up in about three weeks...... :(

There's allready a "Gas Gas Gas" meme on verified Covid cases.
Ain't looking great .

Prestor Jon wrote:

 skyth wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
The only Federal assistance sent to people was a one time $1200 payment

And the $600 per week Federal addition to unemployment for people affected by the Covid situation. This includes self-employed people and people with partnerships.

Also, open economy is not the only solution. There is also the solution of 'Government steps in to help people pay for things' solution that involves less people dying...

You are correct and I would love to see our government produce legislation that is a rational, pragmatic response to helping our country, especially those suffering the most under this pandemic, the help they need in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening and I don't see it happening anytime soon. The Federal government could do more to help the states afford to pay out the unemployment benefits to 30,000,000+ people instead of just tacking on a few hundred dollars. States are already in difficult positions with their budgets and Congress doesn't seem eager to help. Why make people file for unemployment in the first place? Why couldnt we just send Federal money to either small businesses directly or as lump sums to states to administer to small business so they could just keep people on their payrolls and not fire them at all? We've all been conscripted into the safety effort for the greater good by the government but the government is doing very little to combat all the negative consequences of self quarrantining. If the government declared the lockdown and then refuses to help alleviate the burdens of the lockdown it's logical for people to push for the lockdown to end.

Very true......

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest Private Eye has a list of the big British companies owned by multi-millionaires who live in tax havens which are claiming a ton of money to furlough workers and so on.

Of course the government money is needed by those workers, it's just a pity the owners aren't paying into the system.

Interstingly, several countries have passed laws stating that companies who hide their money in offshore tax havens are not eligible for bailout funds. Poland and Denmark IIRC - and more power to them.
The Netherlands have in at least one case (KLM) demanded that a company pay out neither dividends nor bonuses to execs in order to be bailed out, and should have done so across the board IMO.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The latest Private Eye has a list of the big British companies owned by multi-millionaires who live in tax havens which are claiming a ton of money to furlough workers and so on.

Of course the government money is needed by those workers, it's just a pity the owners aren't paying into the system.

Interstingly, several countries have passed laws stating that companies who hide their money in offshore tax havens are not eligible for bailout funds. Poland and Denmark IIRC - and more power to them.
The Netherlands have in at least one case (KLM) demanded that a company pay out neither dividends nor bonuses to execs in order to be bailed out, and should have done so across the board IMO.

Discussion over here of partially helping out the Swiss Airline are going on , sofar minimal conditions would be all money given would have to be used in switzerland.

As for money in offshore havens , well Like i said that behaviour will bite companies in the backside .

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how many of these "remove lockdown" people wishing other people to die for their sake would be willing to die themselves. After all since you are happy for others to die for you you shouldn't have problem dying yourself as well?

Edited by RiTides

To me that's one of the most sinister aspects of this virus. For the vast majority who catch it, they'll never even notice- so the odds are very good that these protestors will not be personally harmed by it. It's the core of their arguments, and it's accurate. The catch is over 2 weeks, they're likely to infect enough people to cause a death and several hospitalizations directly, or through the other carriers they create. But they'll never know if they were the one that infected the casualties, especially if they're asymptomatic. So there's no guilt, and little personal risk from spreading the virus, and exacerbating the pandemic.

What they know, is whether they catch it or not, the bills are coming- and if those aren't paid, their families won't eat, will lose their homes, and (at least in the US) health insurance- so it is inexplicably better to catch it now if they're going to, while they can afford the medical bills and have insurance to cover it.

It's a horrible, desperate situation for many. Breaking social distancing will kill thousands of anonymous strangers- but can you be in favor of it when your family will lose everything but their lives?

That's why so many states are opening up, and why our casualty rates are going to be so, so terrible. Our government will not take care of its citizens during this time- if we were paying people to stay home, or had canceled rent and mortgage payments for the duration, I doubt there'd be nearly as many protests going on here.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'd say "not rebutting and not publicly making a point about how you're not rebutting" would be even more appreciated?

And we all appreciate those posters.

 Gitzbitah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how many of these "remove lockdown" people wishing other people to die for their sake would be willing to die themselves. After all since you are happy for others to die for you you shouldn't have problem dying yourself as well?

Edited by RiTides

To me that's one of the most sinister aspects of this virus. For the vast majority who catch it, they'll never even notice- so the odds are very good that these protestors will not be personally harmed by it. It's the core of their arguments, and it's accurate. The catch is over 2 weeks, they're likely to infect enough people to cause a death and several hospitalizations directly, or through the other carriers they create. But they'll never know if they were the one that infected the casualties, especially if they're asymptomatic. So there's no guilt, and little personal risk from spreading the virus, and exacerbating the pandemic.

What they know, is whether they catch it or not, the bills are coming- and if those aren't paid, their families won't eat, will lose their homes, and (at least in the US) health insurance- so it is inexplicably better to catch it now if they're going to, while they can afford the medical bills and have insurance to cover it.

It's a horrible, desperate situation for many. Breaking social distancing will kill thousands of anonymous strangers- but can you be in favor of it when your family will lose everything but their lives?

That's why so many states are opening up, and why our casualty rates are going to be so, so terrible. Our government will not take care of its citizens during this time- if we were paying people to stay home, or had canceled rent and mortgage payments for the duration, I doubt there'd be nearly as many protests going on here.

I agree with everything you said.

I think two other important components to the problem are the lack of testing and lack of information. It’s perfectly rational to want to return to normal behaviors if you feel normal. We’ve been self quarantining for a month and a half now and if you feel healthy at this point you probably believe you don’t aren’t infected so why not go out? There isn’t testing available for asymptomatic people so people that honestly believe they are healthy can’t be sure whether or not they’re putting others at risk. It’s crazy that we’re opening back up with no widespread testing. What is different from when the lockdown started? Why is it safe now if it wasn’t then? And if we can’t safely end the lockdown without testing and we don’t know when we’ll have widespread testing how can we keep everyone locked down indefinitely?

We don’t seem to have a comprehensive plan. Coupled with that we don’t have good information. We can’t tell who has it or has had it unless they’re actively sick. We’re not sure what treatments are effective, how many strains of the virus are out there or if people can get infected more than once. Some research has been done on some states in regards to how widespread the virus has been. We know there’s been more cases than just the confirmed ones but we’ll never get an accurate count. That ties back into not knowing if you are infected or have been infected if you were asymptomatic. It’s a very confusing and anxious situation.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
We are so monumentally, horrendously screwed by stupidity here in the US. Seriously, I already had a somewhat low opinion of my fellow human beings, but I am even revising that previous thought.

I am a work tool and appliance delivery driver who has just got back to work after the shelter in place orders have been lifted partially, and everyone slammed back out into the public like nothing has even changed.

It might as well be May of 2019.

In the past three days of deliveries, I have been met by exactly ONE maintenance guy out of at least 30 properties all across my state who wore a mask, and he only remembered it because he saw me wearing mine. None of my shop wears even one piece of PPE, and they think that that masks are "stupid and pointless". Today they were all eating from a single communal pizza for lunch.

I have actually been scoffed and eye-rolled at by customers for wearing a mask, and even given unsolicited advise about how all of this is a hoax and barely anyone is REALLY getting sick. One guy said that yeah, he used to wear a mask, but it was too much of a pain to talk in, so he said in his words "Eff it, I'll either die or I won't". One of the guys has been in our shop every day to buy materials with no mask or anything, and is from an apartment complex maybe 1/8 of a mile away that he openly states has several confirmed resident cases.

Some of the properties I deliver to are even majority-senior housing, and it's like nothing is going on!

My mom and dad live next door to my wife and kids and I, and we had been sheltering in place together. Unfortunately, I have had to go back to quarantining my family from them, because Mom is going through cancer treatments and so is immune-comprimised. I figure I am so exposed at work that there is no reason to take the chance.

Sorry if it sounds like I am venting, but hey at least it's relevant and non-political!

Wow, how different things are by state. Here in San Diego it is very much the opposite. Mask requirement started in May, but I would say 80% of people (and all workers) were already wearing masks anyways. People are going out of their way to maintain distance, barely any traffic on the roads, pretty much completely inverted.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Wow, how different things are by state. Here in San Diego it is very much the opposite. Mask requirement started in May, but I would say 80% of people (and all workers) were already wearing masks anyways. People are going out of their way to maintain distance, barely any traffic on the roads, pretty much completely inverted.

The low traffic on the roads is fantastic. I can ride the murdercycle to work and not dodge idiots the whole way in. Since I've been working late any 'rush hour' traffic is gone by the ride home.

It is already next to impossible to talk about this pandemic and not have politics intrude to some extent now - and it will be impossible to talk about this pandemic and the situation in the USA going forward, because the USA (and really, every country) is handling the response in a very political manner.

I think people are trying to discuss this fact in as general terms as possible though?

Having said that, if a post intrudes upon a Rule, report and just move the feth on - weird nonsensical posts that are essentially breaking another rule on the site is a strange thing to see.

I guess it is entertaining though, and certainly better then Murder Hornets.

Meanwhile, the whole reopening thing isn't working out as intended, as many of these states are now seeing a sharp increase in cases...

Maybe we're at the point where the moral and economic calculus says "This is it" but it does seem a little cold and brutal.

I think ANY reopening, no matter how long you wait to initiate it, is going to see a sharp increase in cases. As long as the virus is still out there, once people start leaving their houses and interacting, you are going to see more transmissions.

No doubt, which is why the key to reopening is a good, robust testing system, that includes the ability to contact trace.

Sadly, I don't think we're anywhere close to where we need to be here in the USA in that regard.

It feels like we'll be stuck in some awful groundhog day of numbers go down, reopen, numbers go up, shutdown, rinse repeat until we get more effective treatments, a working vaccine, etc.

Don't worry...according to the federal government, deaths will be 0 by mid May...

 skyth wrote:
Don't worry...according to the federal government, deaths will be 0 by mid May...

Just wait until early 2021, the death rate will be negative numbers when the lockdown baby boom hits.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

I think two other important components to the problem are the lack of testing and lack of information. It’s perfectly rational to want to return to normal behaviors if you feel normal. We’ve been self quarantining for a month and a half now and if you feel healthy at this point you probably believe you don’t aren’t infected so why not go out? There isn’t testing available for asymptomatic people so people that honestly believe they are healthy can’t be sure whether or not they’re putting others at risk. It’s crazy that we’re opening back up with no widespread testing. What is different from when the lockdown started? Why is it safe now if it wasn’t then? And if we can’t safely end the lockdown without testing and we don’t know when we’ll have widespread testing how can we keep everyone locked down indefinitely?

We don’t seem to have a comprehensive plan. Coupled with that we don’t have good information. We can’t tell who has it or has had it unless they’re actively sick. We’re not sure what treatments are effective, how many strains of the virus are out there or if people can get infected more than once. Some research has been done on some states in regards to how widespread the virus has been. We know there’s been more cases than just the confirmed ones but we’ll never get an accurate count. That ties back into not knowing if you are infected or have been infected if you were asymptomatic. It’s a very confusing and anxious situation.

Yes, well said. that has been one of the most frustrating parts about this for me - that this has been going on since January and we've gone from pretending there wasn't a problem to admitting there was maybe a small problem (but under control) to finally admitting yeah it's a problem but will be over soon and then... marching into now pretending the problem has passed, or is just about passed. At no point was there any kind of national plan or leadership or just... anything you would expect in a first world country. It's May and we still aren't anywhere near where we should be with testing and no real plan to get there. I hear about states being forced to bid against each other for PPE for their front line healthcare workers and I get so angry; how did we get here?

Instead of people being ready to riot over that, we have them opening up the beaches and tattoo parlors and hair styling places. In some cases this is a thinly veiled excuse to kick people off unemployment - hell, in at least one state, their unemployment system was broken by design. In another state, you have the governor admitting opening early will get more people sick (and die) but you know, the economy. In another state, it looks like judges might overrule the governor's stay-at-home order (while they themselves, obviously, are working remotely).

Finally we have protests. And what are the protests for? Not these abjectly broken pieces of government, at our rudderless direction, or what is now the equivalent of about 19 9/11s and who knows how much of it could have been avoided.... but instead to astroturf for billionaire profits. At least with 9/11 we united, instead of further fracturing.

Against all of this, the vague, never-ending backdrop that if you get it, you just might die! All the time, in the back of your head. Sure, you might die at any time, people get hit by cars and have strokes in their sleep and so on, but this is just a never ending, creeping doom. It's like a film on the water, always psychologically there. Maybe your grandma or your parents if not you. Maybe your sister who is a smoker. I rarely sleep more than 4 or 5 hours a night now, even on my days off, and am always tired.

This has not been a very cash money time, is I guess what i am saying.

 CptJake wrote:
The low traffic on the roads is fantastic. I can ride the murdercycle to work and not dodge idiots the whole way in. Since I've been working late any 'rush hour' traffic is gone by the ride home.

A few days ago, on the way to my federally essential job, I could see for literally miles that there was no traffic and that is becoming semi-normal. It made for a nice commute but I also speed substantially more than I already do. So, not 100% perfect.

 CptJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Wow, how different things are by state. Here in San Diego it is very much the opposite. Mask requirement started in May, but I would say 80% of people (and all workers) were already wearing masks anyways. People are going out of their way to maintain distance, barely any traffic on the roads, pretty much completely inverted.

The low traffic on the roads is fantastic. I can ride the murdercycle to work and not dodge idiots the whole way in. Since I've been working late any 'rush hour' traffic is gone by the ride home.

I would say here in Michigan, it's down maybe 25% this week from pre-pandemic traffic- MAYBE. A big enough drop as things open back up that you still notice the larger than normal difference of semi-trucks to civilian traffic, but not by much.

Definitely a big difference up from the previous weeks where I drove to a couple of stores and traffic was way, way down as people stayed home. I am a delivery driver, and have probably driven about 300-400 miles on all possible road types in my three days back from work since the lockdown, across a pretty big area to the north and southeast of where I am at home right now, so i have seen a pretty good sampling.

I think the increase in infection is going to be pretty huge by the end of next week. Enough people think that things should just be perfectly business as usual that I have had a couple of delivery recipients be pretty butthurt that my company is no longer delivering appliances into apartment buildings, but just to the front entry and the maintenance guys on-site actually have to do some muscle work to get it from there. They just have no idea why I don't want to go into a stranger's living space when I am probably getting paid less than they are. Even at assisted living apartments I was met by staff with no mask or gloves on.

Three days into the first post-lockdown week and already people treat this like the pandemic was something that happened a year ago and we are all reminiscing about how much things sucked "back during the lockdown".

I would say traffic is down 75% or so around me. I will also note that things are not completely shut down--people are getting take-out, drive-thrus are full, businessess still open have foot traffic. But it is all done with masks and six feet apart. There is no question that people around me are generally taking the matter seriously, even if they don't like it.

 Ouze wrote:

Spoiler:

Prestor Jon wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

I think two other important components to the problem are the lack of testing and lack of information. It’s perfectly rational to want to return to normal behaviors if you feel normal. We’ve been self quarantining for a month and a half now and if you feel healthy at this point you probably believe you don’t aren’t infected so why not go out? There isn’t testing available for asymptomatic people so people that honestly believe they are healthy can’t be sure whether or not they’re putting others at risk. It’s crazy that we’re opening back up with no widespread testing. What is different from when the lockdown started? Why is it safe now if it wasn’t then? And if we can’t safely end the lockdown without testing and we don’t know when we’ll have widespread testing how can we keep everyone locked down indefinitely?

We don’t seem to have a comprehensive plan. Coupled with that we don’t have good information. We can’t tell who has it or has had it unless they’re actively sick. We’re not sure what treatments are effective, how many strains of the virus are out there or if people can get infected more than once. Some research has been done on some states in regards to how widespread the virus has been. We know there’s been more cases than just the confirmed ones but we’ll never get an accurate count. That ties back into not knowing if you are infected or have been infected if you were asymptomatic. It’s a very confusing and anxious situation.

Yes, well said. that has been one of the most frustrating parts about this for me - that this has been going on since January and we've gone from pretending there wasn't a problem to admitting there was maybe a small problem (but under control) to finally admitting yeah it's a problem but will be over soon and then... marching into now pretending the problem has passed, or is just about passed. At no point was there any kind of national plan or leadership or just... anything you would expect in a first world country. It's May and we still aren't anywhere near where we should be with testing and no real plan to get there. I hear about states being forced to bid against each other for PPE for their front line healthcare workers and I get so angry; how did we get here?

Instead of people being ready to riot over that, we have them opening up the beaches and tattoo parlors and hair styling places. In some cases this is a thinly veiled excuse to kick people off unemployment - hell, in at least one state, their unemployment system was broken by design. In another state, you have the governor admitting opening early will get more people sick (and die) but you know, the economy. In another state, it looks like judges might overrule the governor's stay-at-home order (while they themselves, obviously, are working remotely).

Finally we have protests. And what are the protests for? Not these abjectly broken pieces of government, at our rudderless direction, or what is now the equivalent of about 19 9/11s and who knows how much of it could have been avoided.... but instead to astroturf for billionaire profits. At least with 9/11 we united, instead of further fracturing.

Against all of this, the vague, never-ending backdrop that if you get it, you just might die! All the time, in the back of your head. Sure, you might die at any time, people get hit by cars and have strokes in their sleep and so on, but this is just a never ending, creeping doom. It's like a film on the water, always psychologically there. Maybe your grandma or your parents if not you. Maybe your sister who is a smoker. I rarely sleep more than 4 or 5 hours a night now, even on my days off, and am always tired.

This has not been a very cash money time, is I guess what i am saying.

 CptJake wrote:
The low traffic on the roads is fantastic. I can ride the murdercycle to work and not dodge idiots the whole way in. Since I've been working late any 'rush hour' traffic is gone by the ride home.

A few days ago, on the way to my federally essential job, I could see for literally miles that there was no traffic and that is becoming semi-normal. It made for a nice commute but I also speed substantially more than I already do. So, not 100% perfect.

I can relate to the anxiety keeping you from sleeping. Please be mindful of your speed if you’re not getting good rest, the lead foot impulse of an open road is strong but the absence of other traffic isn’t a guarantee against accidents especially if you’re sleep deprived.

I try to stay positive because within our little bubble of the neighborhood and family everything is going well even with my wife’s job as a nurse. However every time I look at the bigger picture and see how we’re literally making stuff up as we go along with no real plans or preparation I get real worried about things getting worse.

Apparently in an effort to take a bad situation and make it even more terrifying, Georgia and Wisconsin are letting teenagers loose on the road without needing to pass a road test as long as their parents give permission.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2020/05/05/wisconsin-and-georgia-are-waiving-road-tests-for-teen-drivers-because-of-coronavirus/

So if the virus doesn't get you, an inexperienced driver might!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Apparently in an effort to take a bad situation and make it even more terrifying, Georgia and Wisconsin are letting teenagers loose on the road without needing to pass a road test as long as their parents give permission.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2020/05/05/wisconsin-and-georgia-are-waiving-road-tests-for-teen-drivers-because-of-coronavirus/

So if the virus doesn't get you, an inexperienced driver might!

Wisconsin seems to be handling the situation more thoughtfully than Georgia.

Teens won’t be required to skip a road test, however; they’ll be able to take tests in person again on May 26, when Wisconsin’s current stay-at-home order ends.

And at least most of the teens would have passed the test anyway.

98% of teens pass a road test on their first or second attempt, the Wisconsin DMV says; the agency hopes this waiver will make a dent in its 16,000 road test backlog. 10,000 of those tests will be eligible for a waiver.

That still means that statistically 200 people will be in charge of a vehicle that probably shouldn't be yet.

But frankly its probably less scary than it appears from a UK perspective where our population density and congested road network, as well as our propensity for manual transmission cars, makes the thought of allowing drivers with only half a licence (you have both a theoretical and practical exam to pass over here, not sure if that's mirrored) out on their own (not to mention eligible to travel the motorway/interstate network,) is terrifying.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That still means that statistically 200 people will be in charge of a vehicle that probably shouldn't be yet.

But frankly its probably less scary than it appears from a UK perspective where our population density and congested road network, as well as our propensity for manual transmission cars, makes the thought of allowing drivers with only half a licence (you have both a theoretical and practical exam to pass over here, not sure if that's mirrored) out on their own (not to mention eligible to travel the motorway/interstate network,) is terrifying.

True. It also would t surprise me if the need to clear the backlog and issue tens of thousands of teens their DL which is typically the only govt issues photo ID people have or carry is more of an impetus than letting teens drive. Few people are driving anywhere these days.

France has provided fairly compelling evidence that the covid infections were present in the icu patients thought at the time to be influenza like, but negative for influenze, from december.
Samples taken at admission are kept in freezer there, and PCR identification of a covid strain was foudn in 14/58 (or 59? A friend read this to me over the phone, so I didn't write it down) of the patients.
Clinical features of hemoptysis (That's coughing up blood for you lay folk) and radiologic signs like "ground glass lower lung fields") were shown in some of this. Community strain was postulated from careful trace analysis of the patients. Note that some lived and some died, back then, among the patients they looked into.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That still means that statistically 200 people will be in charge of a vehicle that probably shouldn't be yet.

True, but there are plenty of people who have passed driving tests who definitely shouldn't be on the road. Be it because they're irresponsible teens or old people with failing mind and body.

In my experience, older people are far more of a danger than teens. I think those states made the best call in a difficult time.

So it seems that the PPE shipment that the UK Gov made a big deal about acquiring from Turkey in one of there daily briefings, was after everything else(didn't arrive on time even after sending the RAF to collect it) not up to the required NHS standards
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52569364

Wait I'm confused. How is it a difficult call?
This seems like a wildly bad idea to me.
But then again, I think teenage driving is a bad idea in general.