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Thankfully, I’ve a keen skill for spotting flaws, and exploring the, before poking the obvious holes in the argument.
I have the same knack, at least when it comes to written things. I'd like to get better at spotting and, most urgently, refuting it in conversation as well, as there are so many people who argue in bad faith in my line of work, and I'm just no good at arguing in person.
Regardless, to everyone raising Spain as an argument against masks, the reason Spain is on the uptick again is because they opened up for tourists, not because the locals aren't careful.
A bunch of stupid tourists from the UK and other western European countries (I'm ashamed to say us Dutch were among the worst) showed up and decided that if they're on holiday, so is the virus, behaved like idiots and caused a resurgence - because the local serving people got infected along with the idiots.
When a fallacious argument gets to the level of '2+2=5' I think most of us are pretty good at spotting it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: You're not thinking like the sort of people who believe this gak in the first place.
Assuming a safe and effective Coronavirus vaccine, the anti vax movement will adapt to explain it away. The most obvious hand wave is that it's for a different disease and it's the childhood ones that cause autism. But I could quite plausibly see it go as far as the government(or whoever) have engineered it so it doesn't cause issues because they need the adult population healthy to serve whatever agenda they're being credited with.
Do not underestimate a conspiracist's ability to bend the facts to fit their truth.
Absolutely, and like I said there will still be some crawling along regardless. But as a movement I feel this will kill any momentum it has and push it to the sidelines next to flat-earthers and the like. Of course as Overread said, if there is a major issue that would indeed change the scenario.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/01 19:00:32
They most certainly the hell are not. Most of my state is still screaming about the mask requirements. My entire small company refuses to wear masks other than myself, until the moment they hear the doorbell chime alert them to a customer coming in, in which case they are only one until the customer leaves. One of my fellow employees is still going out to bars nearly every night.
I can't even tell you the last time that I, as a delivery driver of tools and appliances to apartment complexes, actually met a maintenance guy or someone in the leasing office with a mask on in the last two months I have been working since the statewide lockdown ended. And this is statewide, because sometimes I drive 250 miles a day on deliveries.
Even the guy that gave our company our first Covid scare, STILL didn't have a mask on the next time I had to deliver to his property. I have actually had customers try to guilt trip me into taking my mask off, by implying I was some sort of anxious baby for wearing one. My own boss says they aren't even worried about planning for if our store of only 8 employees gets infected, because "it probably won't ever happen".
We in America are sitting in a hole of our own making, which we dug as fast as possible.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 03:23:32
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
They most certainly the hell are not. Most of my state is still screaming about the mask requirements. My entire small company refuses to wear masks other than myself, until the moment they hear the doorbell chime alert them to a customer coming in, in which case they are only one until the customer leaves. One of my fellow employees is still going out to bars nearly every night.
I can't even tell you the last time that I, as a delivery driver of tools and appliances to apartment complexes, actually met a maintenance guy or someone in the leasing office with a mask on in the last two months I have been working since the statewide lockdown ended. And this is statewide, because sometimes I drive 250 miles a day on deliveries.
Even the guy that gave our company our first Covid scare, STILL didn't have a mask on the next time I had to deliver to his property. I have actually had customers try to guilt trip me into taking my mask off, by implying I was some sort of anxious baby for wearing one. My own boss says they aren't even worried about planning for if our store of only 8 employees gets infected, because "it probably won't ever happen".
We in America are sitting in a hole of our own making, which we dug as fast as possible.
Make sure to inform them that since they are not following proper procedure, if you can link an infection to any one of them you will make sure it is pursued to the furthest extent of the law.
Matt Swain wrote: I'm wondering if we'll have relatives of corona victims suing churches for violating covid control laws.
Those will be the new Mesothelioma commercials. "Did you attend Our Lady of the Sacred Heart between April 1st through December 25th of 2020? You could qualify for compensation from a multi-million dollar class action lawsuit! Call Danks and Danks today!"
If you feel your "civil liberties" are being impinged by this simple requirement, you are a whining, selfish, thoughtless child. Frankly you need to take a reality check, because your priorities are all wrong.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
The amount of people that need to realise freedom does not actually exist. You enter into a contract of sorts with government almost at birth, they provide you with security, education, healthcare etc etc etc and your role in accepting that is following laws, rules, contributing to a society. That is the basis of nearly all modern civilisations, there's variance in countries and due to politics but that is the crux of it. You can choose not to follow those rules, laws, societal norms if you feel so, you have the free will to do that, but don't complain at the consequences.
It's not even THAT big a deal to wear a mask, you give up many liberties on a daily basis as it is, knowingly or not. Also, if you followed and respected the lockdown, that was a massive infringement on your freedom, to ease that lockdown you have to wear a mask...
I think some people are just being stubborn to save face now tbh, they don't want to admit they were wrong or are embarrassed about how extra they went about masks and don't want to lose face by backtracking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 10:35:50
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If you feel your "civil liberties" are being impinged by this simple requirement, you are a whining, selfish, thoughtless child. Frankly you need to take a reality check, because your priorities are all wrong.
Jonathan pie is a satirical, fictional comedy character.
Have you really not realised that insulting people does absolutely nothing to change their mind?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The amount of people that need to realise freedom does not actually exist. You enter into a contract of sorts with government almost at birth, they provide you with security, education, healthcare etc etc etc and your role in accepting that is following laws, rules, contributing to a society. That is the basis of nearly all modern civilisations, there's variance in countries and due to politics but that is the crux of it. You can choose not to follow those rules, laws, societal norms if you feel so, you have the free will to do that, but don't complain at the consequences.
It's not even THAT big a deal to wear a mask, you give up many liberties on a daily basis as it is, knowingly or not. Also, if you followed and respected the lockdown, that was a massive infringement on your freedom, to ease that lockdown you have to wear a mask...
I think some people are just being stubborn to save face now tbh, they don't want to admit they were wrong or are embarrassed about how extra they went about masks and don't want to lose face by backtracking.
That doesnt mean that the government should be able to just do whatever they want, or issue whatever decrees they happen to decide upon with impunity. These things are based on reasoning, compromise, and with the goal of promoting a functioning society. They are not just scrawled on the back of a cigarette packet and introduced at random.
OK, let me lay it out. my argument is that government should not be enforcing what the general public must wear to go into certain places. my main reasoning is: the infected rate is incredibly low. we are 4 months past our peak, hospitalisations and deaths continue to fall. masks have never been an issue before this. it makes no sense whatsoever.
So far the responses have been:
'its not hard to wear a mask': Never said it was.
'its considerate to others who might be anxious': Why should I be forced to act like I am scared, simply because someone else is?
'its not for your protection, its for the protection of others': Nonsense. Thats hokum used to beat dissenters into compliance through guilt.
'No shirt, No shoes': Private companies=/=Government.
'Seatbelts' : Seatbelts are proven to work and have a provable impact on road accident outcomes, which actually affects a substantial proportion of the population.
'Some people were opposed to seatbelts': So? very weak attempt at historical guilt by association and irrelevant comparison.
'anti-vax/climate change deniers': Well, even a lobotomised invalid could point out the flaw in the reasoning of this absolute reach.
and a bunch of other fallacies and insults to boot.
So, in conclusion, still no logically cogent argument supporting a government to just be able to issue a decree forcing people to cover half their face in order to enter certain spaces, with no logical basis, and furthermore, no parliamentary scrutiny whatsoever.
The secondary argument here is that not wearing a mask 'violates someone else' rights' if you are unknowingly asymptomatic, which I reject on its basic premises. Assuming that everyone is 'guilty' of having coronavirus until proven 'innocent' is absurd. If you are unaware of having coronavirus, well thats just a fact of life. There are thousands of asymptomatic carriers of chlamydia and aids, we don't enforce condom use on penalty of offence.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 12:40:08
Have you really not realised that insulting people does absolutely nothing to change their mind?
But that doesn't stop these same people from insulting others for not believing the same things than them.
At some point, I think we should make all those people accountable for what they have done / are doing. Freedom of speech shouldn't be an excuse to spread false information that is doing real harm to real people.
And one day, we will all pay for it, because of people who always refused to see the consequences of their actions.
"'its considerate to others who might be anxious': Why should I be forced to act like I am scared, simply because someone else is?
This is not a contest to see who is scared or not. This is a public health matter.
The truth is, some people think they're more clever than the "sheeps" listening to the government's policies. They think they are the smart ones, because they, at least, know what is going on.
Unfortunately, they don't. It's just a question of human pride.
And that's the real trouble. Confusion spread by conspiracy theories and people who are too eager to believe them because they are convenient to them is now causing chaos. And there is only one winner here : the virus itself.
All of this only helps it to spread more.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 12:42:47
Freedom of speech is a separate rabbit hole that we should avoid here. also, I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories, and have insulted no one, despite receiving plenty myself.
It isnt really spreading. and even when there are rises in case numbers, deaths continue to fall.
Thats fine. I've laid out my logic. unless someone can come along and show my why its incorrect, which I doubt, unless a huge portion of the population suddenly becomes infected and deaths jump again, I stand by my reasoning.
Simply being ganged up on my the majority is not going to change my mind.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 12:48:22
It isnt really spreading. and even when there are rises in case numbers, deaths continue to fall.
It is spreading, the reproduction rate is slowly but surely going back to what it was before the confinment - well, in countries that aren't already fethed up. The thing is, this virus is now more insidious and we still don't know what are the consequences on long term or those who had it. Not all are recovering completely, for those who didn't die.
But that's just another proof here : no matter what we will tell you or even put your nose right into the hospitals that are saturated, you won't change your mind - because you never wanted to see the reality, just the "truth" that is accommodating you.
And freedom of speech is what the conspiracy theorists are invoking to spread their lies. As well as you.
It isnt really spreading. and even when there are rises in case numbers, deaths continue to fall.
It is spreading, the reproduction rate is slowly but surely going back to what it was before the confinment - well, in countries that aren't already fethed up. The thing is, this virus is now more insidious and we still don't know what are the consequences on long term or those who had it. Not all are recovering completely, for those who didn't die.
But that's just another proof here : no matter what we will tell you or even put your nose right into the hospitals that are saturated, you won't change your mind - because you never wanted to see the reality, just the "truth" that is accommodating you.
And freedom of speech is what the conspiracy theorists are invoking to spread their lies. As well as you.
I'm talking about the UK pal. I'm not fussed about the continent. We base our policies on the situation here. the TRUTH of which is, as I've repeatedly stated.. C.<0.07% of the population infected at any time. C.700 cases daily, falling deaths, falling hospitalisations... what else is there to it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 12:57:48
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Freedom of speech is a separate rabbit hole that we should avoid here. also, I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories, and have insulted no one, despite receiving plenty myself.
It isnt really spreading. and even when there are rises in case numbers, deaths continue to fall.
Thats fine. I've laid out my logic. unless someone can come along and show my why its incorrect, which I doubt, unless a huge portion of the population suddenly becomes infected and deaths jump again, I stand by my reasoning.
Simply being ganged up on my the majority is not going to change my mind.
But it’s the masks that are preventing the infection and death rates from spiking again. It’s a circular argument. You seem to be saying that the masks aren’t necessary because there’s not been a spike, when it’s the masks that are the reason for why there hasn’t been a spike. You take away the masks it’ll spike again.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Freedom of speech is a separate rabbit hole that we should avoid here. also, I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories, and have insulted no one, despite receiving plenty myself.
It isnt really spreading. and even when there are rises in case numbers, deaths continue to fall.
Thats fine. I've laid out my logic. unless someone can come along and show my why its incorrect, which I doubt, unless a huge portion of the population suddenly becomes infected and deaths jump again, I stand by my reasoning.
Simply being ganged up on my the majority is not going to change my mind.
But it’s the masks that are preventing the infection and death rates from spiking again. It’s a circular argument. You seem to be saying that the masks aren’t necessary because there’s not been a spike, when it’s the masks that are the reason for why there hasn’t been a spike. You take away the masks it’ll spike again.
come on dude. Thats not even my reasoning. there was no spike forthcoming regardless of mask mandates. just look at the graphs.. the masks arent preventing anything, they became mandatory a week ago, when we've been at the bottom of our peak for about 3.5 months.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 13:02:08
They most certainly the hell are not. Most of my state is still screaming about the mask requirements. My entire small company refuses to wear masks other than myself, until the moment they hear the doorbell chime alert them to a customer coming in, in which case they are only one until the customer leaves. One of my fellow employees is still going out to bars nearly every night.
I can't even tell you the last time that I, as a delivery driver of tools and appliances to apartment complexes, actually met a maintenance guy or someone in the leasing office with a mask on in the last two months I have been working since the statewide lockdown ended. And this is statewide, because sometimes I drive 250 miles a day on deliveries.
Even the guy that gave our company our first Covid scare, STILL didn't have a mask on the next time I had to deliver to his property. I have actually had customers try to guilt trip me into taking my mask off, by implying I was some sort of anxious baby for wearing one. My own boss says they aren't even worried about planning for if our store of only 8 employees gets infected, because "it probably won't ever happen".
We in America are sitting in a hole of our own making, which we dug as fast as possible.
Make sure to inform them that since they are not following proper procedure, if you can link an infection to any one of them you will make sure it is pursued to the furthest extent of the law.
They're trying to give employers immunity from lawsuits related to getting infected by Covid.
It's just a slow rise not a major one at present. It's why the UK government has closed down plans for reopening some things like leisure centres. The Masks should have been brought in weeks ago when the stats were lower still to aid keeping things as low as possible for as long as possible.
The big risk is that we are back in late Feb early March where we see a slow steady rise than a shift in gear to doubling and a rapid increase back to high infection levels.
Deaths falling though is only part of the story - the UK has no recovery data coming out to speak of and the corona stats sites generally only display deaths, infections and recoveries. We don't have any real pooled data to display current term health impacts after infection.
We still have a disaster even with falling deaths because that could still mean that we are building up an increasing number of people with long term health impacts.
Furthermore once the virus gets going we have seen how fast it shifts gear from linear to exponential infection growth. Only right now we are starting from a baseline of hundreds not zero (like we were in March/Feb)
I agree. They should be publishing the recovery data. The cynic in me is prone to think that the reason they aren't is because it will disrupt the fear paralysis once the general population starts seeing the comparisons.
And yes, absolutely talk about the potential long term effects. In my opinion this is what they should be focusing on, rather than attempting to keep the population in that fear paralysis.
I differ from you in that I just don't think that second spike is coming.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: They should be publishing the recovery data. The cynic in me is prone to think that the reason they aren't is because it will disrupt the fear paralysis once the general population starts seeing the comparisons.
Why would the government want to not publish data which would give them ammunition for their attempts to re-open stuff?
You think the government wants people afraid of a virus more than they want people to be going back to normal, spending money, reopening businesses etc.? Why? What do they gain?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Exactly. Don't disrupt his conspiracy theories. I know that here in the US, our government DESPERATELY wants things to go back to normal, with us being good little spending drones. Regardless of political agenda, at the end of the day, Wildly Spending Money=Good. And yet even our highest office says "things are likely to get worse before they get better" and "It's best to wear a mask".
Masks limit the transmission of respiratory-based illnesses to others. It's science. Old science. Otherwise I guess there's no reason to wear a mask in a children's hospital or a cancer treatment center anymore, is there? When my mom goes to Lax Cancer Center, all the patients wearing a mask before Covid was even a thing must have been more of that old "fear paralysis", eh? Rather than risking a healthy person dragging in a respiratory illness to people who can't afford to be exposed to what other people in common public would otherwise shrug off.
Jesus. People have been wearing masks to limit the spread of respiratory disease since the days of Doctors prescribing cigarettes, and before we even had penicillin.
We currently have people orbiting the planet in a metal box, while we have others down here debating the efficacy of masks and how we shouldn't believe science.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 15:05:56
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Science? Why would anyone listen to scientists who propagate those inconvenient theories that affect your well-established lifestyle? Changing lifestyle is the worst!
It is much better to listen to populist demagogues. They say those convenient things you want to hear, hence they surely are more correct than scientists.
I differ from you in that I just don't think that second spike is coming.
And you're willing to risk a helluva lot of lives on that assumption. The rest of us are not. Suck it up.
And FYI, getting people to use masks is not about maintaining a fear paralyzation, it's about trying to find a way forward to a semblance of normalcy without sacrificing a lot of lives needelessly.
UK cases up 25% on average from 2 weeks ago, according to the evening news on the BBC, but thankfully my region and adjacent ones remain amongst the least affected.
Given the exponential nature of infection, one can see how 25% on relatively low infection rates could still get out of control without action fairly quickly.
Also from the same bulletin, sounds like Australia are nowhere near as under control as they first thought, with fresh lockdowns being mooted and apparently WA has closed its borders to all but necessary travellers.
Perhaps some antipodean dakkites can lend some insight into that beyond a news agency from the other side of the planet?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Have you really not realised that insulting people does absolutely nothing to change their mind?
Reasoning and begging didn't work. You also can't shame people into wearing masks who are so very convinced of being correct.
What else is left?
Leaving us alone.
Spoiler:
AegisGrimm wrote: Exactly. Don't disrupt his conspiracy theories. I know that here in the US, our government DESPERATELY wants things to go back to normal, with us being good little spending drones. Regardless of political agenda, at the end of the day, Wildly Spending Money=Good. And yet even our highest office says "things are likely to get worse before they get better" and "It's best to wear a mask".
Masks limit the transmission of respiratory-based illnesses to others. It's science. Old science. Otherwise I guess there's no reason to wear a mask in a children's hospital or a cancer treatment center anymore, is there? When my mom goes to Lax Cancer Center, all the patients wearing a mask before Covid was even a thing must have been more of that old "fear paralysis", eh? Rather than risking a healthy person dragging in a respiratory illness to people who can't afford to be exposed to what other people in common public would otherwise shrug off.
Jesus. People have been wearing masks to limit the spread of respiratory disease since the days of Doctors prescribing cigarettes, and before we even had penicillin.
We currently have people orbiting the planet in a metal box, while we have others down here debating the efficacy of masks and how we shouldn't believe science.
What conspiracy theories are those then? Questioning why my government fails to provide recovery stats 2 months after the promised delivery date? Questioning why they fail to publish any positive news regarding the virus? That's not a conspiracy. Those are valid questions.
Masks are worn in medical settings. Not necessary in supermarkets, especially the ones made from bits of old t shirts
I differ from you in that I just don't think that second spike is coming.
And you're willing to risk a helluva lot of lives on that assumption. The rest of us are not. Suck it up.
And FYI, getting people to use masks is not about maintaining a fear paralyzation, it's about trying to find a way forward to a semblance of normalcy without sacrificing a lot of lives needelessly.
Oh yeah, all those lives... C.0.7% of 0.07% of the population. Deaths were already incredibly low without mask laws. They are not necessary for a return to normal.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/08/02 20:51:16
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