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 greyknight12 wrote:
I didn't make that spreadsheet, not sure why it's being attributed to me!

Sorry, it was one of the vets arguing with Venom again.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?

I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Xeno keeps ignoring the math for whatever reason.

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Xeno keeps ignoring the math for whatever reason.

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Xeno keeps ignoring the math for whatever reason.

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.

No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.

Jabberscythe wrote:
The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?

It depends on the army you're facing.

As long as you can make sure not a single 1 wound enemy model is between his heavy target assets and your 12" or 24" smite dealers, before your psychic phase begins - or that his army cannot heavily deny / minus-1 or more to your smite casting you could be okay...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Xeno keeps ignoring the math for whatever reason.

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.

No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.

Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?

I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.

Will you be planning on shooting your heavy weapons during ToC (but with no additional strats / buffs), and NOT against these types of targets:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)

^ Because psilencers would be WORSE against them than psycannons...then you should be okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.

No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.

Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.

If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.

So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.

I'm seriously considering to bring some 10 man purifier squads instead of paladin bomb.

A 10 man purifier squad can bring as many special weapons and has the exact same amount of firepower than a 10 man paladin squad and with the start to have a 4++ plus sanctuary for a 3++ and the tide of shadow they become considerable thought, not much as the 10 man paladin squad, but for much fewer points. Also, they are more CP efficient as you don't need to spend 2 CP for the -1 Damage. Granted that they cannot teleport strike, but you can pay 1CP to do so, or you can gate then. Granted that they have fewer attacks, but they can at least smite for D6 in cc.

Purifiers won't be durable even with a 4++.

Yea sadly a 4++ isnt much these days, the stuff that kills marines is mass fire of ap 0,1,2, like butcher cannons or stalker bolt rifles

Jabberscythe wrote:
The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?

Smites with D2 are too good to pass.
But your army needs to get close and personal.
What I've seen here are armies with 3 battalions which can hardly reach the enemy within 2 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifiers won't be durable even with a 4++.

Well, I remember my Harlies.
A 4++ is nice on paper but mass small fire kills them.
Purifiers are a bit better with T4 and 3+ save, but this will not save them.
If you had said 10 Intercessors, this have would been a deal.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.

So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.

This, pretty much. If you use the cheapest platform - a Strike Knight or Purgator - you can get 7 bodies with psilencers for the same cost as 6 bodies with psycannons. Very far from double. And as has been discussed in length, psilencers are only better than psycannons if you stack specific buffs on them, or if you don't intend to use tide of convergence. And if you need a Chaplain (whose buff is unreliable) and/or 2-4 CP worth of stratagems every turn to make them better, they're not really cheaper than psycannons, are they? And even then you're generally still only buffing 1 unit of psilencers at a time. And yes, psilencers are better for chaff clearing, but with all those storm bolters GK generally have very little problem clearing chaff anyway.

Unless you don't intent to use Tide of Convergence a lot or really can't spare the points, I'd take 4, maybe 8 psilencers max in an army list on a unit that can take 4 like a Paladin bomb, and use that as the target for buffs. On the other heavy weapon slots I'd take psycannons. Especially units that you don't intend to buff anyway, like that lone heavy weapon in a 5 man Terminator or Strike squad, or on a Brother-Captain or Paladin Ancient.

2W smites are also very nice indeed, but are forced to target the closest unit (so can be wasted on chaff) and without a bro-cap around they are very short ranged.

After my fist couple of test games I am trending towards the escalation/shadow dance for my tides. I just feel ToC doesnt give an equal boost in offensive firepower compared to esacalation, especially as clearing chaff in t1/2 isnt really a problem, and then your smites really start to hurt in later turns once the screens are gone.

stormcraft wrote:
After my fist couple of test games I am trending towards the escalation/shadow dance for my tides. I just feel ToC doesnt give an equal boost in offensive firepower compared to esacalation, especially as clearing chaff in t1/2 isnt really a problem, and then your smites really start to hurt in later turns once the screens are gone.

This is also my impression.
ToC requires to bring quite a few psi weapons to bear.
Purgation squads need to be within 24'' range and will then be a high priority target.
Recitation of projection (for an extra 6'' range) seems to be a must-have here, but requires a Chaplain to be within 6''and works only for one squad.
There could be better uses of a precious Chaplain.

for the person that asked why all falchions on my paladins

because they look COOL
for me, its more looks then mathematical efficiency

that being said, I do have a question
I found this box of greyknight paladins gathering dust on the back of the shelf

I am considering making 4 of them paladins with incinerators … opinion??

unit would then consist of 10 paladins - Sgt with hammer, 9 with falchions, 6 stormbolters and 4 incinerators

use the strat, drop 3" in front of the enemy
some other characters behind them, mega buff them out with -1 to wound them, +1 to invul save, hammerhand, ect
historically, for me, my paladins have been a HUGE distraction carnifex, strictly because of how much fire it takes to remove them,
with this scenario, my opponent can not ignore them
there have been quite a few games were the paladins do get wiped out, but the other 45 infantry in the army survive to close with and destroy the enemy, strictly because the enemy focused 100% of his fire into the paladins

Observation:
Greyknights 2.0
yes, it is very easy for an opponent to customize his/her army to effectively deal with Grey Knights, and you will have a very hard time winning games vs that type of player if they know in advance you are bringing Grey Knights
However, I have found, that vs generic take all comers lists, Grey Knights perform quite well

Has anyone had any fun Inner Fire results yet? I got off a surprise 11 Mortal Wounds on a Swarmlord the other day, which is my best result so far.

I was looking at a Super Psyker Buff Bomb for fun. Santic Shard on a cheap character, having a basic smite cast from somewhere nearby for the stratagem buff, and possibly a Librarian nearby for the Nullifier to possibly increase the result one more, or save from a Perils.

I got Inner Fire off with the 3" strat on my Apothecary, and Psychic Range Increase strat to make it up to 7" and got a 13 total result. +1 Brotherhood, +1 Santic, +1 Strat, -1 Shadows from Swarmy. I actually rolled an 11, so I couldn't use the Nullfier, otherwise it would've Periled. Got ten 3+'s and two 1's And with Loremaster I had Vortex of Doom to see if I could do something stupid with that, only rolled a 7 with the same pluses and rolled a 1 on the damage.

But still, it was stupid and fun. Couldn't kill him though which is sad. Definitely better used against small Characters.

 Redemption wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.

So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.

This, pretty much. If you use the cheapest platform - a Strike Knight or Purgator - you can get 7 bodies with psilencers for the same cost as 6 bodies with psycannons. Very far from double. And as has been discussed in length, psilencers are only better than psycannons if you stack specific buffs on them, or if you don't intend to use tide of convergence. And if you need a Chaplain (whose buff is unreliable) and/or 2-4 CP worth of stratagems every turn to make them better, they're not really cheaper than psycannons, are they? And even then you're generally still only buffing 1 unit of psilencers at a time. And yes, psilencers are better for chaff clearing, but with all those storm bolters GK generally have very little problem clearing chaff anyway.

Unless you don't intent to use Tide of Convergence a lot or really can't spare the points, I'd take 4, maybe 8 psilencers max in an army list on a unit that can take 4 like a Paladin bomb, and use that as the target for buffs. On the other heavy weapon slots I'd take psycannons. Especially units that you don't intend to buff anyway, like that lone heavy weapon in a 5 man Terminator or Strike squad, or on a Brother-Captain or Paladin Ancient.

2W smites are also very nice indeed, but are forced to target the closest unit (so can be wasted on chaff) and without a bro-cap around they are very short ranged.

It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
for the person that asked why all falchions on my paladins

because they look COOL
for me, its more looks then mathematical efficiency

that being said, I do have a question
I found this box of greyknight paladins gathering dust on the back of the shelf

I am considering making 4 of them paladins with incinerators … opinion??

unit would then consist of 10 paladins - Sgt with hammer, 9 with falchions, 6 stormbolters and 4 incinerators

use the strat, drop 3" in front of the enemy
some other characters behind them, mega buff them out with -1 to wound them, +1 to invul save, hammerhand, ect
historically, for me, my paladins have been a HUGE distraction carnifex, strictly because of how much fire it takes to remove them,
with this scenario, my opponent can not ignore them
there have been quite a few games were the paladins do get wiped out, but the other 45 infantry in the army survive to close with and destroy the enemy, strictly because the enemy focused 100% of his fire into the paladins

Observation:
Greyknights 2.0
yes, it is very easy for an opponent to customize his/her army to effectively deal with Grey Knights, and you will have a very hard time winning games vs that type of player if they know in advance you are bringing Grey Knights
However, I have found, that vs generic take all comers lists, Grey Knights perform quite well

I thought about doing that same exact thing, but once you dropped and shot, you have 4 weapons not able to do anything the next turn.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?

I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.

Will you be planning on shooting your heavy weapons during ToC (but with no additional strats / buffs), and NOT against these types of targets:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)

^ Because psilencers would be WORSE against them than psycannons...then you should be okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.

I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.

No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.

Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.

If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.

So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.

Likely the same number of heavies as really. The difference in the costs of the weapons does not net you a new unit. It nets you like 2 models. You need 5 models to add a new heavy. The difference between taking psi over psy nets you a few thunderhammers at best. Which is a consideration but these are afterthoughts as they likely wont even use the dang thing more than once.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

For Paladins, I wonder if a hammer would be worth it on the Paragon since WS 2+ makes the -1 to hit hurt a little less.

On inner fire, it’s also completely worth it to 3D6 that test. My 2 results are 7 mortal wounds and the next game I just passed the power with a 5...did 3 wounds :(

The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.

A smart enemy will try to shoot them down no matter what.
An when the bomb will start to crumble it will be hard to come back.

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.

Well, in former games I often took 3 ven Dreads with dual autocannons.
They are still legal but legend. Not every tourney allows legends.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.

Ven dread is good. I'm always going to bring at least one. more often than not it is going to be shooting out of LOS killing their indirect fire. Need more than that to take down any big threats. Just keep in mind you are comparing a 7 point weapon to a 20 points one...

 wuestenfux wrote:

Purifiers won't be durable even with a 4++.

Well, I remember my Harlies.
A 4++ is nice on paper but mass small fire kills them.
Purifiers are a bit better with T4 and 3+ save, but this will not save them.
If you had said 10 Intercessors, this have would been a deal.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong but with sanctuary, the 4++ wouldn't become 3++? 3++ is almost statistically as 2 wounds with a 4++

Perhaps I'm overthinking it a bit. I've tried the paladin bomb this weekend and it worked wonders. However, it gives me an uneasy feeling about CP consumption and with the fact that due to this CP consumption the whole army has to be built around the paladin bomb leaving no so much room for other tactics. I'm afraid that somebody can come easily with a counter to the paladin bomb.

If you were playing against GK and somebody dropped a paladin bomb in the table how would you try to counter it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.

Agree. Many times people forget a good point of the good old LC. Range. In 8th edition the capacity to sit behind cover and shoot from a safe distance to whatever you want has value. Especially when you can hide behind LoS.

Simply put, the Ven Dread is the cheapest you'll get.

 Redemption wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.

I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.

And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296

The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.

This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;

Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.

Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.

This gak with the cannons is never going to end.