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 wuestenfux wrote:

True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.

The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.

Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.

100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.

Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.

In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.

He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2

- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4

Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.

I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.

Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.

 wannabmoy wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.

The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.

Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.

100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.

Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.

In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.

My game plan with GK in recent games (before the release of the new rules) was to keep the 3 Interceptor squads and the Paladin squad as hidden as possible in the backfield.
The enemy concentrated on the 3 Dreads w/ dual twin autocannons backed up by 2 Techmarines.
In t2, the Interceptors (via shunt) and the Paladins (via gate) moved into position, while the three Strike squads and the two GMNDK's arrived via deep strike.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 wannabmoy wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.

The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.

Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.

100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.

Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.

In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.

My game plan with GK in recent games (before the release of the new rules) was to keep the 3 Interceptor squads and the Paladin squad as hidden as possible in the backfield.
The enemy concentrated on the 3 Dreads w/ dual twin autocannons backed up by 2 Techmarines.
In t2, the Interceptors (via shunt) and the Paladins (via gate) moved into position, while the three Strike squads and the two GMNDK's arrived via deep strike.

Filthy. I love it.

 wannabmoy wrote:

In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.

With Edict Imperator and interceptor is possible to do a powerful beta strike that creates a deep hole in an enemy castle. Shunt interceptor in the movement face and deep strike a character close to them to cast edict imperator in the interceptors in the psychic phase. Shoot 40 storm bolter rounds, potentially with psi bolt ammo. Leave a hole on the enemy screen. Now Gate forward a second unit in the no available space leave by this hole and use the shooting phase potentially getting in a threating position for the support units.

Fun fact is that the first time shooting was in the psychic phase and the second time will be the shooting phase so technically it should be legal to use psi bolt ammo a second time as a different phase. This means that in the shooty tide it should be technically possible to do a whooping 80 storm bolter shoots S6 -1 AP 2 damage Where 40 of them will bypass at least the first screen layer.

I've tried to do the hide everything until T2 before with deathwatch and it has just allowed my opponent to get too big of a lead and control too much of the board (effectively dictating where I can land t2). Removing a key unit or two, setting up a trap or dictating where you enemy has to move in order to deal with a threat are such important tools that are often worth sacrificing a unit (which is why I like interceptors and strikes better than termies)

I always found more success in having the ability to get a squad up the board and creating a threat (while removing a threat) to be able to dictate where the enemy needs to focus their response. Being able to astral aim on a interceptor squad shunting up the board means nothing is safe that is w/in 14" of your screen (counts as standing still strat means 40 psi-bolter shots with no cover killing something important).

But that threat requires a significant CP investment which is why I'm waffling back towards the triple bat (I can't make a brig work for the life of me). But often will let you trade that unit for something more valuable of your opponents (pretty much anything without character protection).

GK opens up so many options for scalpel game play and is really fluffy. The spells + strats allow the army to hit so hard and so fast that you get to dictate a lot of what your opponent has to do in response and putting that pressure on people is such a fun experience. Battle plans and strategy really impact how the game goes, playing closer to GSC than marines.

Heck, GOI on a 10 man strike maybe better than shunting for T1 because you can buff up the strike in the psychic, send them on their way with an invlun and -1 to be wounded in cover and your opponent will probably have to spend a lot of resources to clear them out instead of setting up chaff to eat all of the smites coming their way.

There are so many toys to play with using pretty basic building blocks that it just seems like an exciting army to play (at least until they break it in 9th edition once I get it all painted and ready...)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.

He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2

- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4

Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.

I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.

Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.

Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.

He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2

- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4

Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.

I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.

Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.

Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.

Anything that is going to be charging him will have a 2+ or a FNP equivalent, really. And if they decide to stay if he charged first? Well he still dies...

psipso wrote:

 wannabmoy wrote:

In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.

With Edict Imperator and interceptor is possible to do a powerful beta strike that creates a deep hole in an enemy castle. Shunt interceptor in the movement face and deep strike a character close to them to cast edict imperator in the interceptors in the psychic phase. Shoot 40 storm bolter rounds, potentially with psi bolt ammo. Leave a hole on the enemy screen. Now Gate forward a second unit in the no available space leave by this hole and use the shooting phase potentially getting in a threating position for the support units.

Fun fact is that the first time shooting was in the psychic phase and the second time will be the shooting phase so technically it should be legal to use psi bolt ammo a second time as a different phase. This means that in the shooty tide it should be technically possible to do a whooping 80 storm bolter shoots S6 -1 AP 2 damage Where 40 of them will bypass at least the first screen layer.

Very interesting idea. It'll be important to gauge the value of the target. You could be trading 400 points of Interceptors for a screen and one valuable unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.

He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2

- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4

Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.

I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.

Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.

Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.

Anything that is going to be charging him will have a 2+ or a FNP equivalent, really. And if they decide to stay if he charged first? Well he still dies...

Most heros don't have a 2+ actually. FNP is also pretty rare. Whats not rare on heros? 3++ saves and 4++ saves. Crowe is just as survivable as anything hes going up against usually. Plus he fights when he dies automatically.

For example...a Gravis captain or Primaris captain. He averages over 5 wounds if he touches a grav captain because hes gonna fight twice that round no matter what. He averages 6 wounds to a primaris captain in 2 rounds. This is pretty good considering he casts 2 powers and also have an auto d6 smite. Also - sometimes just forcing a player to roll 8-10 saves on a 3+ can make magic happen. Where a few thunder hammer wounds can be negated by a 4++ save and a command reroll. He's not great admittedly but not nearly as bad as anyone makes him out to be. 2 powers for 80 points on it's own is pretty awesome.

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.

Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.

Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.

Squig buggies are one of the best shooting units in the game. So you are wrong in 2 ways...You can't beat my argument with a real argument because it's backed up with mathematical fact so you move the goal posts trying to make me look like an idiot. If that method of argument was effective I could just bring up the fact that you thought BS 2+ and and ws 2+ would fix terminators when obviously their issue as always has been durability. Since that isn't good practice or argument I don't do that though. Plus - think people with even a small amount of intelligence can surmise that I speak in Jest a lot. Melee damage is special - it takes away the shooting of an infantry unit and crowe survives better than a strike sqaud for about the same cost - he just does his damage in melee where if he survive will nearly double the smite power the next turn as well as an additional cast because he has 2 power. Seriously. Compare him to a libby...They have the same save and wounds except crowe has a 4++ - he moves faster and a Libby has less attacks with a crappy stave unless you wanna dump more point into him. Sure a libby can take relics which is probably better than crowe but they also cost more. I'm not claiming he is amazing but he certainly has a use. D6 smite is not to be underestimated even if it only has 3" range (likely 6" because who isn't taking multiple bro champs.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.

Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.

Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.

I wish he was better too. He used to be an elite duelist. Now he is just a bargain buy. That isn't what he should be - it's still not bad though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.

Flamers as a deterrent has never really worked for me, so many things that want to charge you can ignore overwatch now that I find it gets wasted a lot. Plus, the incinerators are overcosted and you give up the chance of taking the better heavy weapons by taking them.

tksolway wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.

Flamers as a deterrent has never really worked for me, so many things that want to charge you can ignore overwatch now that I find it gets wasted a lot. Plus, the incinerators are overcosted and you give up the chance of taking the better heavy weapons by taking them.

Oh I agree, I was just looking for some upsides.

 Redemption wrote:

Waking Dreamer wrote:"Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "

I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.

But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.

Ritual of the Damned says:

Instead of generating psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline, a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER model can generate an equivalent number of psychic powers from the Dominus discipline (they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline).

Take a GK Librarian: his datasheet says he knows the Smite psychic power and two psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. If you give him the Lore Master trait, he now knows 3 Sanctic powers. Then you go and generate powers, and you can choose to generate an equivalent number of powers from the Dominus discipline, so you generate 3 Dominus powers.

But yes, definitely needs a FAQ/errata. The Tome of Malcador relic is different, because a Phobos Librarian doesn't technicaly have a rule that they cannot generate from both Librarius and Obscuration; they just normally can't generate from Librarius at all.

Nice. This is exactly how my group has been playing it, and there are quite a few GK players actively using it.

The best thing about this, is that it doesn't break any of the rules written - which IS AWESOME!

A FAQ will be needed for those who still disagree.

Excellent point about the SM relic. There are definitely clear difference between the two.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.


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I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.

Squig buggies are one of the best shooting units in the game. So you are wrong in 2 ways...You can't beat my argument with a real argument because it's backed up with mathematical fact so you move the goal posts trying to make me look like an idiot. If that method of argument was effective I could just bring up the fact that you thought BS 2+ and and ws 2+ would fix terminators when obviously their issue as always has been durability. Since that isn't good practice or argument I don't do that though. Plus - think people with even a small amount of intelligence can surmise that I speak in Jest a lot. Melee damage is special - it takes away the shooting of an infantry unit and crowe survives better than a strike sqaud for about the same cost - he just does his damage in melee where if he survive will nearly double the smite power the next turn as well as an additional cast because he has 2 power. Seriously. Compare him to a libby...They have the same save and wounds except crowe has a 4++ - he moves faster and a Libby has less attacks with a crappy stave unless you wanna dump more point into him. Sure a libby can take relics which is probably better than crowe but they also cost more. I'm not claiming he is amazing but he certainly has a use. D6 smite is not to be underestimated even if it only has 3" range (likely 6" because who isn't taking multiple bro champs.)


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MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.

Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.

Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.

Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.

Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.

I wish he was better too. He used to be an elite duelist. Now he is just a bargain buy. That isn't what he should be - it's still not bad though.

Except the problem is not durability for Terminators. They become much more durable to more weapons than the weapons they lost durability to. I've provided a list before showing that and you cannot seen to comprehend that, meanwhile the fix I proposed makes them more independent from rerolls and provides a solid defense against negative modifiers. I've said once and I'll say it again: if you want durability buy Centurions. Terminators should fill a different niche, which is elite shock trooper. You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).

Some of you all are forgetting core rules and stuff from the FAQ

>>cut and paste from the FAQ<<

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).

Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?

A: No.

you can not deep strike a unit and then use Edict Imperator

in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round

you also can not use Gate of Infinity followed by Edict Imperator... however.. you could do Edict Imperator FIRST followed by Gate of Infinity

also, all of that being said, you can still use Edict Imperator AFTER a deep strike / gate of infinity / teleport shunt... it allows you to SHOOT still, but you still can NOT make a MOVE after.. per the FAQ and Designers commentary regarding units placed as reinforcements

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round

A quote directly from GW.

"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"

"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."

Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.

here is the entire cut and paste from the April Commentary

(RE)SETTING UP MODELS There are several abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers that let players remove a unit from the battlefield and then set it back up in a different location, but these rules are causing some confusion. The confusion is partly because it is not clear whether or not any effects that applied to the unit before it is removed from the battlefield continue to apply when it is set back up, and also because the wording of this rule is sometimes written as these units being set up ‘as if they were reinforcements’, even though they are technically on the battlefield already.

The intent of the ‘as if they were reinforcements’ wording was to try and make it clear that the units had counted as moving for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons, and that they can’t move further again this turn (other than to charge, pile in or consolidate) – after all, these units have potentially been displaced across the entire length of the battlefield already. This wording was also used to try and make it clear that such units would trigger other abilities or Stratagems, such as Auspex Scans and Early Warning Overrides, that are used when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements – our feeling was that it shouldn’t make a difference as to the whether a unit teleported onto the battlefield from an orbiting spacecraft or from over the next hill.

To clarify how these abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers work, we are adding the following FAQ to the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which is preprinted here for convenience:

WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019

Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:

1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.

3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.

4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.

5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on the battlefield.

6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that unit this turn.

7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.

8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would still be affected by it until the end of that turn.

Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus), Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units being repositioned on the battlefield.


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MiguelFelstone wrote:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round

A quote directly from GW.

"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"

"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."

Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.

yes, can still use those powers ect
but the moment you do so, the moment you place them, the rules for "reinforcements" apply, thus allowing things like being shot at by auspex scan.. and the restriction that you can not move again after being placed, except to charge ect as posted above

thus the conflict between things like teleport shunt or gate of infinity working with the psy power Edict Imperator allowing you to shoot and then move... you can still use Edict Imperator after a shunt or gate or deep strike.. use it for the purpose of fireing weapons upon landing, but the core rule mechanic will negate your ability to move after

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round

A quote directly from GW.

"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"

"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."

Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.

Yeah, what Gunrunner1775 said. That FAQ is so you can use abilities like Gate of Infinity or Teleport Shunt in the first turn without invalidating the Tactical Reserves rule. But you cannot move under any circumstances after coming from reserves or using such an ability until the Charge phase.

So are we sure we can cast edict on them?

I would guess yes since they "can" move and not "must" move. I feel like these are the types of questions that should be resolved in a FAQ since they seem to literally be frequently asked questions and not fixes to typos and other screw ups.

FAQ is scheduled for next weekend right (not that the schedule really means anything)?

That shunting/deepstriking, edicting and then GOI'ing into position is sooooo dirty - I love it

bananathug wrote:
So are we sure we can cast edict on them?

I'd say it's a grey area at best (GET IT?!), we need a FAQ.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).

Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.

 Xenomancers wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).

Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.

Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).

Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.

Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.

Yeah I mentioned the relic. Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points. 35 point difference actually with 3 attacks I can't imagine paying for a melee weapon on this guy.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points.

How can you say knowing half the number of spells doesn't matter? Every character in your army knows one spell.

How is Crowe anything like a Librarian?

 Xenomancers wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.

That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).

Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.

Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.

Yeah I mentioned the relic. Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points. 35 point difference actually with 3 attacks I can't imagine paying for a melee weapon on this guy.

Deep Strike, more powers, and access to relics doesn't matter? You really don't understand the army huh?
I'd rather take a generic Champ and get the FNP relic than use Crowe ever.