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That last one doesn't illustrate your point. There's absolutely loads of LoS blockage evident there. In fact I'd say it would be quite difficult to get a more obstructive terrain board than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter...

Silos. Pipes. Solid walls. Wreked vehicles - the existing terrain (Mechanicus themed or otherwise) offers ample solution to the problem he has described.

Various scatter terrain also provide movement challenges.

It’s not unusual to see the ground floor of a Necromunda table neglected.

As someone who spent years playing with the even thinner OG cardboard Necromunda terrain, I really don't understand the complaint that the current Sector Mechanicus stuff doesn't work with Necromunda's mechanics.

If you played for years, chances are that you played in an edition where nobody could start with BS2+? Typically combined with fast shot plasma, lascannon or plasma cannon with blast.

I'm still confused by you posting that third picture and calling out the SecMec terrain, because you're simply incorrect on that. Have you not handled the terrain in person?

Here is a copy of that picture with (some) of the "completely blocks LOS to models" terrain highlighted. I can't even see the whole board, and the LOS-blocking-factor is multiplied when a model shoots through several layers of terrain, so there are *many* possible highlights missing.

Have I handled it? Believe so:

 Flinty wrote:
The last pic there shows the solution. Munitorum Container style scatter. You can easily make several full pallets or piles of the crates that block LOS well, as well.as the solidity often containers themselves. The base game also comes with barricades. So the answer is definately more terrain, just not more big buildings.

Like thus:

Board with too many corner and LOS blocking spots just meant the infiltration bomberman tactic will prosper.

Infiltration is in itself a problem and breaks so many scenarios. It needs a simple fix like deployed as normal but get 1-2 move actions before first round or something.

Going to start a dedicated “art of terrain” type thread in the relevant sub-forum.

It’s a very interesting subject, and one where a good understanding can greatly enhance a campaign’s success. And I don’t want to derail this thread

Sounds good!

Am I being thick, or have we had no real previews this week?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Am I being thick, or have we had no real previews this week?

No, we've only had the Lore article for House of Artifice so far and that's it

Altruizine wrote:I'm still confused by you posting that third picture and calling out the SecMec terrain, because you're simply incorrect on that. Have you not handled the terrain in person?

Here is a copy of that picture with (some) of the "completely blocks LOS to models" terrain highlighted. I can't even see the whole board, and the LOS-blocking-factor is multiplied when a model shoots through several layers of terrain, so there are *many* possible highlights missing.

Baxx wrote:You can always use the terrain card, but the fact is a lot of necromunda terrain out there look amazing, but simply does not work well with the game mechanics. Anything from official GW sector mechanicus terrain or 3rd party mdf towers and walkways, they so often allow to draw LOS straight through them.


So what you do when you have purchased, built and painted a table's worth of this? You can look through it like a thin slice of swiss cheeze. "Add more" is not always a practical solution.

Regardless, the universal scenario flaw has no good solution. We get more scenarios each month it seems (72 so far!), but they all have the same botched foundation. All scenarios are "shootout", and if you allow the remaining gang to claim any remaining objectives, they become even more shooty. The quickest way to drag a loot casket across the table is to wipe out the enemy.

Actually as the person who played on that exact board, (its my friends set), you would be surprised how tough it can be to get LoS on that set, especially when you split people onto different levels.



link to twitter thread with more pics from inside to see density.


This thread also has other angles of that table posted


The terrain can work it just needs setting up more densely
I find the core issue in necro is honestly more to do with how easy it is to just ignore terrain modifiers with aim and scopes, as well as blast weapons still being pinpoint accurate and the damage they do. Along with the fast fire + overseer rules that just allow van saar to delete everything, aswell as missions limiting you to 10 models which favours small elite gangs over horde, my 10 cawdor are not the same as 10 van saar. You could end up with a like 2000 credit difference in quality between the two which gang cards really wont help balance. More punishing intervening terrain rules would likely also help instead of just being in cover, like a -1 for every terrain piece the shot passes.

Quite excited now. Element (other online stores are available) confirmed shipping of my House of Artifice.

With what the post is like at the mo, I’d be pleasantly surprised if it arrives tomorrow, but good to know it’s on the way!

Element use Amazon logistics to shop most parcels now and they are actually extremely good at getting them to you next day even during busy periods.

The more terrain, the better.

It's not important about "giving" them a LOS. You have to work that out on your own. I understand your points, but it is on the player to work out his gang's edge. Then you are going to add in high flyers, jump packs, and close quarter armies, the dynamic of the CQB environment does not offer you a free lunch.

As someone who was born in a MOUT site, and earned his stripes the hard way, I can tell you from a two way shooting range that close in environments do not provide you a clear Line of Sight over 10-20 meters.

You fight it out in 5- 20 meters, and your targets usually use booby traps, smoke, and psychological tricks like throwing kids at you, tripwires, IED's, and intentional blocking LOS as you walk into a prepped area with little more then your rather large.... Munition in your hand. and trust me, it sucks.

That board in your last photo is perfectly good as an example. On the ground though, I would add in the walls and doors from the Necromunda bulkheads and doors sets, as well as add in some smaller stacks such as 1" to 2" piles of rubble in those open spots on the grounds, as well as blocking material on the bridges and walkways.

The rad beamer of the new Spider champ is a wee bit more useful than the meme-tier rad-cannon because it had a rapid fire mode, no long range penalty, no unwieldy.

Not a rumour so much as news: James Hewitt has a bit of a musing on the way Necromunda evolved from the old Wild West vibe to the more current Private Military Contractor feel:

https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1341156317763923971

For those who don't know, James M Hewitt doesn't work anymore at GW and is managing his own lil game brand. He worked on new version of Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus and Age of Sigmar at its very beginning. He left in good terms.

Here what he said :

Late night confession:

I'm so glad I'm not working on Necromunda any more. The brief was always pulling in a direction that didn't feel like Necromunda to me, and looking at it now, it's clear I would have really struggled as time went on.

Like, the things that always attracted me to Necromunda were:
- Survival in the Underhive.
- Self-sufficient gangs, with loose affiliations to their House.
- Low-tech kit / lots of improvisation.
- How gangs interact with their turf.

This edition is clearly more about proxy wars between well-supplied paramilitary units fighting at the behest of their Houses, and to me - *personally* - that doesn't feel so much like Necromunda. It feels like a 40k skirmish game, but it doesn't feel like Necromunda.

I'm not knocking anyone who loves it as it is, or trying to claim that the current edition is wrong - just that, to me, it's not thematically recognisable as the same game I adored when I was a teenager.

And I'm fully aware that I'm probably in the wrong here.

*He then inserted a meme saying "we fear change"*

To be honest, I don't really agree with him. Mainly because old Necromunda was, at its time, a 40k skirmish game already (its rules were litterally copied-pasted from the 40k version at the time).

The game still gives a lot of survival vibe, honestly...it's easy to have a crippled gang with unlucky rolls, and the new options in the "House of" books don't help. The campaign is all focused about controlling the turf and managing its ressources. Guess the next Book of Ruin or equivalent will certainly not focus that much about true survival like it is currently, but still.

About the para-military and low tech feeling...I get what he's saying, but I'm more nuanced. It's still about gangs made of misfits and sent in the Underhive. Old Necromunda wasn't exactly lenient about military grade weapons, to be honest (laser cannons were already possible to buy, after all...). The support from the main House is, however, more clear and present. And we have a lot more of details about how they work and what are the interactions with their gangs.

I think the last House of Artifice is indeed looking like the Van Saar gangs are paramilitary high tech groups, but I believe it's more about the new design of Van Saar gangs than anything else. They still have to struggle in the Underhive to thrive, like any other. It's cool to have expensive stuff to buy, but if you don't have credits to spend, it's useless in the end.

Orlocks, Escher and Goliath don't really feel like paramilitary groups, to me. And about low tech...just the existence of new Cawdor gangs is speaking from itself, I believe. It's more about making a different design for each gang than the old generic ones using all the same kinds of weapons.

He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

Sometime these things aren't even set in stone. You can still see several of the gangs still look like rough and tough gangs of the underhive. Escher, etc... still look rough and ready and brawling not para-military.


I think that part of it is just that the game is evolving and advancing beyond its humble beginnings and the deeper you go the more organisation and structure you see and bring into the game. Plus the more you deepen a model line the more you'll see more organised structure and such even within rough and ready forces. Simply because the more you organise and diversify the more you have to build in structure for it to work.


Van Saar are also the techno-faction so of course they are going to appear more para-military than rough and ready brawlers. I'm sure once we see Cawdor getting a big update we'll see a different take on things.

I must admit, I mostly agree with him, as those are the things that interested me more about the setting.

Then again, I'vee been thinking for some time now about modding an "Oldcromunda" RPG as it is, probably FitD as it base, so...

The biggest problem visually is Van Saar (the BIG problem) and Delaque. I mean I don't think I need to explain why the new Van Saar clash horribly with the 'grungy gritty gangsters' aesthetic when they wouldn't look at all out of place as Tau proxies - they always looked kind out of place in their bodysuits, but the new models have really doubled down on it.

Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The rest of the line I don't think clash too much with the original aesthetic - the new Cawdor stuff I'd say actually doubles down on the grungy, downtrodden look - until we started getting Orlock Juves with jump packs which was very eyebrow raising, although that's nothing next to bloody hoverboards.

 Overread wrote:
Sometime these things aren't even set in stone. You can still see several of the gangs still look like rough and tough gangs of the underhive. Escher, etc... still look rough and ready and brawling not para-military.


I think that part of it is just that the game is evolving and advancing beyond its humble beginnings and the deeper you go the more organisation and structure you see and bring into the game. Plus the more you deepen a model line the more you'll see more organised structure and such even within rough and ready forces. Simply because the more you organise and diversify the more you have to build in structure for it to work.


Van Saar are also the techno-faction so of course they are going to appear more para-military than rough and ready brawlers. I'm sure once we see Cawdor getting a big update we'll see a different take on things.

I don't buy the "it was inevitable" argument. It isn't about whether you add things, it's about what you add and how it's presented. Expanding and diversifying the themes of the original in no way necessitated the shifts in tone, aesthetic, and concept that we've seen in the new version, there was plenty of mileage left in 80's Action Movie Meets Post Apocalypse Meets Western With A Hint Of Cyberpunk. The shifts we've seen are a result of a conscious choice to make the new game a synthesis of Necromunda and it's RT-era predecessor Confrontation because the latter better fits the tastes of the gent in charge of Specialist Games and because they think the more advanced aesthetic and militaristic tone will sell better to the same modern audience the tacticool element of the Primaris redesign was aimed at. But even if we proceed on the assumption that the broad strokes of the changes were necessary, the execution of it is still slapdash and somewhat uncaring of the implications. To go back to my personal bugbear with Nucromunda, the Van Saar STC thing is a perfect example.

If they really, really wanted to do things as they've done them, with the Van Saar actually having superior and unique tech rather than just being the guys who made the best versions of Necromunda pattern gear, they could do that without sticking their foot so far into their mouth they could kiss their own bum. They could have given them access to a set of extremely incomplete STC *printouts* that the Mechanicus is aware of and was tithed copies of as per the laws of the Imperium, and they can get away with using them by tacit agreement of "you give our agents a first look at any archeotech you find, and we'll let you keep using the borked rad-soaked gear in your gang wars so long as none of it gets out into wider circulation". Instead, they gave them a functional - if error prone - STC system, the literal Holy Grail of the Mechanicus, something large factions would burn the Imperium to the ground without a second thought to possess, and then insist they've managed to keep it secret for hundreds of years.

They're taking the whole "planetary governors are feudal overlords who can run things as they like so long as they pay their taxes" thing(forgetting/ignoring the "and obey Imperial law" bit) as carte blanche to essentially remake a little corner of Rogue Trader within the modern 40K fluff. People can like the result or not, but it was a conscious decision not merely an organic and inevitable outcome of revisiting the setting.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

JWBS wrote:
He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

I'm trying and failing to translate that into a visual image, but it sounds _terrible_.

Voss wrote:

JWBS wrote:
He also said that Delaques will get mecha-laser-trenchcoats in their next book, which he personally designed, and they look great.

I'm trying and failing to translate that into a visual image, but it sounds _terrible_.

His quote about that:

I'm just so glad that I'm not in a position where I'm having to get over that uneasy feeling and write rules for the latest Delaque Mecha-Laser-Trenchcoat or whatever.

He hasn't been involved with Necromunda since the core box and the first two Gangs of the Underhive(which he noted he wrote as one book).

Well those both sound completely different takes on something.
His actual quote to that statement about what he said.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Delaque aren't as bad as Van Saar but I thought the old metals perfectly nailed that kind of leather coated gangster who quickly draws a weapon to gun you down in the street aesthetic, whilst the new models just look like... cultists, who I'd imagine around a circle chanting in Latin until the protagonist shows up to gun the mooks down, their very static poses don't help.

The new Delaque miniatures are exquisite, in my mind. Gloomy. Evocative. Creepy. Very 'Dark City', as many of us said when they were first revealed. Sadly however, they just don't look anything like Delaques.

I own pretty much every Necromunda product released (except the Dark Uprising stuff, and the newer add-on boxes), including multiples of all the new gangs. Except Delaque. I don't own a single one of those. They're just... not Delaques. Nothing has been a greater disappointment with Newcromunda than what they did to the Delaque aesthetic.

As I said - simply fantastic miniatures, and I've seen people combine them with the GSC stuff to great effect - but they just don't fit at all with the original visual style (unlike Van Saar, who you can kinda get away with).

I agree on all counts. The new models themselves are fantastic, very characterful, well proportioned in what they're aiming for with the gangly, uncanny, creepy look, but that's really undermined by them making for such poor Delaque models.