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 Flinty wrote:
It doesnt require any work. Just allow the other gangs to use the Orlock vehicle entry in exactly the same way that they do.

I can see the issue that the riders won't match, or will need some work to convert.

A better solution would be to bring in the GSC dune buggy and truck, which do not need visible riders and are supposed to be generic Imperial vehicles. The Rhino would also make sense, Sentinels and turret-less Chimeras could work too.

Like other said I expect there will be a WD article at some point giving Necro rules for some 40k vehicles, but who knows where or when or how good it will be. It really should have been included from the start.

Or do a bit of counts-as until the generic and other gang specific vehicles are available. I just felt it a bit unecessary to make it out like a. Ash wastes campaign from day 1 would mean that only Orlocks could get access to the 400 free of vehicle.

I do agree that it would have been better for the player base to have something for everyone on release of the box set. Hopefully the book comes out soon.

Book will probably come with the cargo 8 kit to give a generic vehicle option

The warcom article states

a complete set of new vehicle rules for gangs, including adding the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler,* Ridgerunners, Wolfquads, and Rockgrinders to your rosters

 Flinty wrote:
The warcom article states

a complete set of new vehicle rules for gangs, including adding the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler,* Ridgerunners, Wolfquads, and Rockgrinders to your rosters

That's some welcome news.

I'd still have put the humble Rhino in there

Poor Rhino, these days everyone just thinks of it as a marine tank.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


Poor Rhino, these days everyone just thinks of it as a marine tank.

Not everyone.

I like the exploding Rhino type.

 ohreally wrote:

Unfortunately someone who advocates stealing the rules no matter what and doesn't even play the RAW disqualifies themselves from being taken seriously.

Who plays RAW? I'd argue that's not even possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

My point is that if new books are specifically designed for Ash Wastes and are not compatible with the Underhive game, then they're two different games/editions. For example is the rulebook significantly different from the 2018 ruleboook?

If Ash Wastes was just an expansion then gangs wouldn't need a new Book of X. It's a whole new game/edition instead. In 40k armies can play with 8th edition codexes, but they lack lots of features.

Arguably this has been the case all the time. Perils/Judgement was specifically designed for N18. The N19 gangs are kinda awkward compared to N20+ gangs in several aspects.

FWIW, rules are pretty much more or less "compatible" across all books. On the other hand, all books have differences. N22 rulebook (Ash Wastes) is significantly different because it introduces a new structure for dividing "models" into "fighters" and "vehicles". This means that vehicle rules are now mixed into virtually all core rules (nerve tests, rally, crew selection, close combat, actions, movement, recovery, injuries/damage ++). However, it seems the existing rules for fighters didn't change much because of it. Ash Wastes won't be perfectly compatible with all previous content. There are several existing special rules that allow to enable/disable pitch black (hangers-on etc.). How would you implement this in Ash Wastes? The mat is double-sided with one day-side and one night-side. Imagine using Core Servitor (from House of Artifice) to flip the lights. Extremely impractical haha. Not to mention it doesn't make a lot of sense that the sun stops shining because of the ability to control electric lamps.

GW said somewhere on warcom that this was a new edition. I don't necessarily agree, but it's certainly a new "version", but so is any book.

If you want more details on what's different in the rulebook, I can show you one example reported by someone else for the Sneak Attack Sentry Rules:
N18:
- Intro: “In these scenarios, the following rules are used”
- Raising the Alarm: “Once the alarm is raised, the sentries rules are no longer used and the defender’s fighters follow all the normal rules.”
N19 & N22:
- Intro: “In these scenarios, the following rules are used”
- Raising the Alarm: “Once the alarm is raised, all sentries immediately gain Ready markers, the Sentries rules are no longer used, and the defender’s fighters follow all the normal rules.”
N21:
- Intro: “In these scenarios, the following rules are used. This is called the ‘Sentry Round’”
- Raising the Alarm: “Once the alarm is raised, the Sentry Round ends and play progresses to the End phase. Once this is complete, the battle continues as normal.”

You will find similar fluctuations for Advancement Tables, Pitch Black, Leading By Example / Gang Hierarchy (X) and so much more. A lot of these examples will be situational and impact could vary from minor to major. Which means that casual players could just roll with whatever. On the other hand, having any discussion, questions and answers, either with local play group or online, is troublesome.

I don't mean to say it's all bad and people can't enjoy it. If you like it, that's great. Miniatures are cool (subjective) and the game is fun (subjective). But the rules quality is not good, and that's objective. If you're okay with that, nothing is stopping you from having the most fun out of the 20 books we got in 5 years (with more coming soon). If you prefer to have some level of consistency and quality, you might enjoy other games a lot more (for example Kill Team and Underworlds where GW actually cares about quality, balance and consistency).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
It doesnt require any work. Just allow the other gangs to use the Orlock vehicle entry in exactly the same way that they do.

I can see the issue that the riders won't match, or will need some work to convert.

A better solution would be to bring in the GSC dune buggy and truck, which do not need visible riders and are supposed to be generic Imperial vehicles. The Rhino would also make sense, Sentinels and turret-less Chimeras could work too.

Like other said I expect there will be a WD article at some point giving Necro rules for some 40k vehicles, but who knows where or when or how good it will be. It really should have been included from the start.

Perhaps you're arguing from 2 different perspectives: Modelling vs rules.

Baxx wrote:
I don't mean to say it's all bad and people can't enjoy it. If you like it, that's great. Miniatures are cool (subjective) and the game is fun (subjective). But the rules quality is not good, and that's objective. If you're okay with that, nothing is stopping you from having the most fun out of the 20 books we got in 5 years (with more coming soon). If you prefer to have some level of consistency and quality, you might enjoy other games a lot more (for example Kill Team and Underworlds where GW actually cares about quality, balance and consistency).

Quoted for truth.

Kill Team, Underworlds and Adeptus Titanicus are the games to seek out if one is searching for an objectively tight & consistent ruleset (with factions that are fairly balanced). Necromunda is a loose, RPG-like experience that provides for a compelling gaming experience over a campaign, when all players involved have figured out what framework one is playing within.

I do think that a billion dollar company can afford to put more quality control on the rules and stop relying on the fanbase to correct errata and balance.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I do think that a billion dollar company can afford to put more quality control on the rules and stop relying on the fanbase to correct errata and balance.

But that costs money!

The trick is showing them that not doing that costs them more money in lost sales

 Overread wrote:
The trick is showing them that not doing that costs them more money in lost sales

No but if you follow every other companies* lead and continue filling the market with half-arsed tat you'll make a profit regardless.

You can't just ignore the shareholders in favour of the customer just because the customer expects a good deal for their purchase! What is this? Some crazy alternate reality where the damned reds won?



*(I mean companies in the wider sense before someone goes "not this indie company I want to marry")

 Overread wrote:
The trick is showing them that not doing that costs them more money in lost sales

Careful, I've heard it said in this thread that advocating against buying a poor product is an objectively evil act!

I never said anything about a "lets not buy stuff". You'll never organise anything like that. But its more about showing the potential loss of sales from those who aren't buying right now.

Those who are already not buying today and showing that they are a viable market if GW makes key changes to product improvement.

Furthermore its about showing that those who reduce, slow or stop buying are being pushed out by elements GW could improve upon to retain those customers.





It's not about protesting its about displaying purchasing trends and patterns and showing that there are ways GW could improve upon those patterns.

Of course its a hard sell right now when GW has trouble just supplying the market they have. They don't actually need more sales.



It's basically the same as how people showed that bloodbowl and other specialist games were a market GW was missing out on. They didn't just bring bloodbowl back because they love it; but also because of likely seeing multiple kickstarters running and generating high income from a concept GW had coined and done. So the best way would likely be something like a paid rules system. Or a game with very tight rules outselling or creeping up on GW's market. It's a shame Warmachine fell apart at 3rd edition because that would have been the best thing. A tight game with good rules taking hold and building and gaining a bigger and bigger market share and showing GW that there was profit and customers in good rules.

 Overread wrote:
The trick is showing them that not doing that costs them more money in lost sales

The fact they're racking in insane amounts of money while doing so, clearly shows the opposite.

 Overread wrote:

It's basically the same as how people showed that bloodbowl and other specialist games were a market GW was missing out on. They didn't just bring bloodbowl back because they love it; but also because of likely seeing multiple kickstarters running and generating high income from a concept GW had coined and done. So the best way would likely be something like a paid rules system. Or a game with very tight rules outselling or creeping up on GW's market. It's a shame Warmachine fell apart at 3rd edition because that would have been the best thing. A tight game with good rules taking hold and building and gaining a bigger and bigger market share and showing GW that there was profit and customers in good rules.

Funny thing about Blood Bowl, content is at least functional (for the most part), unlike literally all Necromunda releases. Something else I find intriguing, for Blood Bowl, all the fluffy extra content is pretty much ignored by players. No discussions online for cards, optional spike content or anything else. For Necromunda, people are discussing in great detail all the additional content. I fully agree about Warmachine. Even better would be to separate miniatures and rules, like historic miniature games tend to do because there's no IP on history.

I don't get why a fluffy, loose RPG-like experience means that consistency and actual functional rules don't matter! To put it in extreme, why would anyone need to buy loosely written rules that doesn't work? I'd be perfectly able of doing that myself. Keep in mind I haven't even mentioned balance yet. I'm not a competitive player and balance would be the least of my concerns currently. I played Cursed City recently, I imagine that's a loose RPG-like experience too, and while I didn't read thoroughly through the rules (believe it or not, I tend not to!), it worked pretty much out of the box. Again, unlike literally all Necromunda releases.

Baxx (or anyone else), could we list the writers of all the boxes and books to see if there is any consistency in writers. If there aren't consistent writers then we might have already found a problem. If we have a central figure with no consistent rules then we have a Gav Thorpe issue.

Modern Necromunda very much resembles early D&D with multiple versions overlapping and sometime confusing different, but D&D was popular A) in spite of, or B) because of, the many different versions. Necromunda is the only side game getting regular new content (minis as well as books) so I can't see the things people complain about here as major problems to consumers. I'll guess that most Necromunda consumers are not actually playing the game...much like most of GW's customers. But what's worst for players of the game s that this model may be the only sustainable one for Necromunda. A small team with quarterly releases, that if increased in size wouldn't be profitable and if stretched out would lose momentum and be declared dead. GW isn't a monolith, it has clear teams working on certain projects and so long as the second tier games don't eat resources from the mainline they seem to let them be.

GW is about to gamble big on Horus Heresy, but if that gamble doesn't pay off that could be the end of that game. It may be better to stay off the radar and make small profits than to bring the attention of the main studio and risk the gravy train being dismantled.

If HH is a gamble, I'd hate to see what a sure thing looks like.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
The warcom article states

a complete set of new vehicle rules for gangs, including adding the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler,* Ridgerunners, Wolfquads, and Rockgrinders to your rosters

That's some welcome news.

I'd still have put the humble Rhino in there

Poor Rhino, these days everyone just thinks of it as a marine tank.

Going to be honest, I haven't seen a 'marine' Rhino in quite a while. Its a Sisters tank chassis now.
That said, I'd be confused if Enforcers don't have Rhinos.

Squat Vartijan Exo-Driller



https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/16/the-squats-make-battlesuits-out-of-mining-equipment-and-corpses-out-of-other-gangs

Odd looking thing. Mantic-like

 zedmeister wrote:

Odd looking thing. Mantic-like

Amazingly odd, or oddly amazing? Either way, I must have it.

Any Nordic speakers able to help with the pronuncian of Vartijan? I assume the ij is like a dipthong? Vart-iyan?

Not sure yet what to find of it. What is interesting though is that there is mention of female Squats.

I like it.

Huh. Wonder if it means that the League isn't going to have an Exo-suit re-imagining. Because this is really plainly one of the old Eggs, embiggen-ed.

I'll give it to GW, though. They're remarkably consistent about making me wonder what mega-suit wearing models are doing with their legs and arms- from the head positioning, the operator is pressed right up against the chest piece, and, well. I wouldn't want to have legs like that for any length of time.
That aside, it looks pretty good.

Not a fan personally but I don't dislike it either. I'm glad it exists regardless. Viva la Squats!

When did GW switch from "Squats never existed and we ran out of ideas for them, who wants Space Dwarf Bikers and guys in suits of power armour that look like eggs, amiright?" to "LET US JAM WIRES STRAIGHT INTO THE NOSTALGIA CENTRES OF YOUR BRAIN"

Because I am totally on board with that shift in thinking.

They call this rig the Wrongdemptor Dreadnot.

Stompy lad. I like.

The flamer hands a gun?

Exo Armour.

That doesn’t look like bum?

Sign. Me. Up.

 Malika2 wrote:
Not sure yet what to find of it. What is interesting though is that there is mention of female Squats.

The biker squat in 40k is female. Not sure about the necromunda ones though