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 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Feel free to tell GW that.

We know how much they appreciate and listen to feedback.

Surprisingly, I don't have to tell GW that:

Spoiler:

They ever so helpfully provided this!

And Ynnari provided new rules for Harlequins.

Therefore the chart has been satisfied.

That's providing new rules for Harlequins used as Ynari though, not Harlequins themselves. Therefore the chart has not been satisfied.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?

Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.

That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.

yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.

Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?

Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.

That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.

yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.

Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.

Don't forget that in the pa books every time it looks like chaos is getting somewhere....

Da da da da daa daaaaa!!! SPACE MARINES TO THE RESCUE!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/12/what-is-the-psychic-awakening/

Article titled 'What is the Psychic Awakening?'

Obviously after suffering near cripling casualties, and having your recruiting worlds overrun by daemons, the sensible thing for a Chapter to do is banzai into a Waaagh! in an attempt to kill Ghazghkull (which is clearly so unsucessful that they actually managaed to bring Makari back to life)...

Don't worry, they're still going to win. Ghazghkull is no match for plot armor.

 Virules wrote:
Wasn't it Belial who hates Ghaz and tried really hard to kill him in one of the books? And Ghaz just toyed with him?

Really, Ghaz should be almost on the level of a primarch. The Beast in M32 was stronger than a primarch in combat (I think that was unrealistic, but whatever). Ragnar is pretty heroic and skilled even for a space marine, and has some pretty impressive plot armor, but he is not on the level of Ghaz if Ghaz is nearing Beast-levels of ork leadership which seems to be the implication of all the 8th edition comments about Orks.

IIRC, in the same way mortals viewed Astartes as Moving Way Too Fast For Something That Huge, Belial had a similar revelation when he tangled with Ghaz. Impossibly strong, insanely fast, and basically had finished krumping you before you even had a chance to notice.

Primarch levels of combatant is really where Ghaz deserves to be. Gives the orcs a goddamn universal leader worth a damn, to give Bobby G a good fight.

"Oy'may Waaaaaaagh moh' Shinderru!"

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?

Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.

That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.

yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.

Name one major loss since the Imperium got split. Because it seems that despite the divide and the fall of Cadia, the Imperium is doing just fine.

I dunno why the hell I'm wasting my time because short of the loss of terra, Macragge or Mars or something you'll bitch whine and moan "it doesn't count! that world doesn't mean anything!"

but ok let's list some chaos Victories:

- The Loss of Iax - this is actually signfcigent because 90% of battles eaither way are for worlds that GW, literally invents for that battle (case in point no one had heard of Vigilius until the supplements came along) Iax has been around since the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex. and has long been described as a jewel in Ultramar's crown. back in the heresy is was one of the 5 major "command worlds" of greater Ultramar. And the planet was destroyed, in large part because Gulliman MADE A MISTAKE.
But that doesn't count for you does it?

- the Death Guard tainting the gene stocks of the Minotaurs Space Marine chapter "beyond all redemption" stop and think about this for a moment, the Minotaurs are a fairly well documented chapter, this isn't some rando chapter made up just to prove the DG are bad asses.
-War Zone Sygius: the 1k sons backed by Tzeetch have basicly over run this entire sector of space. Only Mordian seems to be able to hang on. (sure an Imperial counter attack may have blunted the attackj and even relieved a few worlds but over all a big win for chaos)



but you'll declare none of these victories count because you're arbitrarily declaring only total victories on worlds you deem important "count" and if thats the case... you're never gonna be sastified no matter what your faction. Total victories generally don't exist.

Holy gak there’s a literal thread dedicated to the plot(s) of PA and how good/bad people feel it is/they are. I’ll link it to make it easier for you - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785394.page

Can you take the off topic ‘Chaos never do anything of note in the lore’ elsewhere? Like maybe to where it belongs?

This discussion, if it wasn’t clear from the title; is centred around PA releases from the Greater Good onward.

GW have told us that the events of PA happen at a certain (though vague) point in the lore, knowing this - it would be bizarre if there were any major plot upheavals in the series.

We know neither Ghazzy nor Ragnar will die in Saga. We know this because their death isn’t mentioned in any of the lore that falls after the time when PA takes place. Technically I suppose Ghazzy could die because he’s messing with time but I think it’s very unlikely.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?

Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.

That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.

yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.

Name one major loss since the Imperium got split. Because it seems that despite the divide and the fall of Cadia, the Imperium is doing just fine.

I dunno why the hell I'm wasting my time because short of the loss of terra, Macragge or Mars or something you'll bitch whine and moan "it doesn't count! that world doesn't mean anything!"

but ok let's list some chaos Victories:

- The Loss of Iax - this is actually signfcigent because 90% of battles eaither way are for worlds that GW, literally invents for that battle (case in point no one had heard of Vigilius until the supplements came along) Iax has been around since the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex. and has long been described as a jewel in Ultramar's crown. back in the heresy is was one of the 5 major "command worlds" of greater Ultramar. And the planet was destroyed, in large part because Gulliman MADE A MISTAKE.
But that doesn't count for you does it?

- the Death Guard tainting the gene stocks of the Minotaurs Space Marine chapter "beyond all redemption" stop and think about this for a moment, the Minotaurs are a fairly well documented chapter, this isn't some rando chapter made up just to prove the DG are bad asses.
-War Zone Sygius: the 1k sons backed by Tzeetch have basicly over run this entire sector of space. Only Mordian seems to be able to hang on. (sure an Imperial counter attack may have blunted the attackj and even relieved a few worlds but over all a big win for chaos)



but you'll declare none of these victories count because you're arbitrarily declaring only total victories on worlds you deem important "count" and if thats the case... you're never gonna be sastified no matter what your faction. Total victories generally don't exist.

Ok cool, so Chaos have been getting some hits in. Were they the outcome of psychic awakening, or just foot notes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Holy gak there’s a literal thread dedicated to the plot(s) of PA and how good/bad people feel it is/they are. I’ll link it to make it easier for you - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785394.page

Can you take the off topic ‘Chaos never do anything of note in the lore’ elsewhere? Like maybe to where it belongs?

This discussion, if it wasn’t clear from the title; is centred around PA releases from the Greater Good onward.

GW have told us that the events of PA happen at a certain (though vague) point in the lore, knowing this - it would be bizarre if there were any major plot upheavals in the series.

We know neither Ghazzy nor Ragnar will die in Saga. We know this because their death isn’t mentioned in any of the lore that falls after the time when PA takes place. Technically I suppose Ghazzy could die because he’s messing with time but I think it’s very unlikely.

Might be an Armageddon scenario, where it ends in a stalemate because Ghaz is having such a good time he doesn't want the fighting to end.
So I guess he'll have 2 "friends"?

 NurglesR0T wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would be pretty great if the orks did win, just to mix things up a bit.
They probably won't though. Has xenos ever won in PA? Or chaos for that matter?

Does Chaos winning in Phoenix count? Although it's pretty sad if you only win because Imps weren't around and the writers also dropped the ball.

That is both sad and funny. Remember the start of 8th, where chaos kicks the imperium hard in the proverbial groin and things were set up to be getting dire and worse?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Maybe for like 5 minutes that happened but Chaos has been getting kick up and down the street by a resurgent more powerful than ever Imperium with an Emperor 2 this time he's blue.

yeah having the Imperium split in two and half of it de facto lost is such a great victory. *eye roll* but the "Imperium never loses" brigade only counts a loss if Terra or Macragge burns.

Which directly after said splitting, Chaos got their ass handed to them by Marines version 2.0 that had just happened to exist in secret for millennia until such a time the plot calls for convenient literal deus ex machina.

That's not what that phrase means. Like at all.

Cops suddenly showing up and arresting the cast of Holy Grail? Deus ex Machina.
Prop plane from nowhere coming down from the sky and killing Mccougnahey at the end of Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4? Deus ex Machina.
NuMarines fighting for 100 years to set up the new status quo and NOT resolve the plot? Not Deus ex Machina.

Please keep on topic to PA5 and onwards and take the lore discussion to another thread (unless it becomes relevant to News and Rumours).

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/12/what-is-the-psychic-awakening/

Article titled 'What is the Psychic Awakening?'

I remain unenlightened.

Oh, no, wait:

The Psychic Awakening books act as a codex update for your armies.

Ah. It is just a codex update. Officially and everything.

So, what you're saying is, Psychic awakening is just mandatory extra codex stuff to try and force you to buy new books to match power with other books ? If only someone, anyone, or to be fair some people, saw this coming months and months before they dropped the first one. Some folks who were shouted down and told they were wrong. It's good to be proven right, fully from the horses mouth as the saying goes.

I'm sure no one will apologize for the vitriol thrown out over the topic so long ago, but I said I'd remember and I do. Vindication, feels so good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Feel free to tell GW that.

We know how much they appreciate and listen to feedback.

Surprisingly, I don't have to tell GW that:

Spoiler:

They ever so helpfully provided this!

And Ynnari provided new rules for Harlequins.

Therefore the chart has been satisfied.

That's providing new rules for Harlequins used as Ynari though, not Harlequins themselves. Therefore the chart has not been satisfied.

They are still new rules that can be used by Harlequins. That people choose not to is their business.

Or at least, that's the reasoning I'm guessing GW will use.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Harlequins *shouldn't* get anything. Merely that I have a hard time seeing it. Eldar and Dark Eldar are considerably larger than Harlequins and they still got barely anything (especially compared to the subsequent PA books). Hence, it would be rather strange if the smallest Eldar faction was given more content than the other two combined.

Eldar got make your own craftworld, stratagems, new exarch powers...Seems to be pretty much on par with other non-marine factions

RE: Harlequins.

At first, they were roughly, in terms of Codex contents, analogous to Skitarii and Tech-Priests.

Those two eventually (and sensibly) were united, and are getting a fairly significant expansion (not just in number of units, but as a percentage addition).

I'm no pointy ear, but Harlequins deserve some of the same.

Dunno. Skitarii and AdMech were new lines launched.


I think Harlequins were the model also used for Plague Marines/Death Guard and Rubric Marines/Thousend Sons.

Al three (Harlequins, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines) started as a single elite-choice in a different codex with outdated / finecast miniatures that weren't updated to a single plastic kit, but to (as was fashion at the time) mutliple kits that got a spin-off Codex to justity it.

tneva82 wrote:
Eldar got make your own craftworld, stratagems, new exarch powers...Seems to be pretty much on par with other non-marine factions

Well, Eldar really just got 1 Stratagem repeated 8 or so times. They also got no Warlord Traits or Artefacts.

Also, i notice that you carefully ignored the other Eldar faction in that book. Namely Dark Eldar.

I'm guessing the reason you ignored them is because they got a pitiful pool of custom Obsessions and literally nothing else. Not a single new stratagem, relic or warlord trait, nor any equivalent of the aforementioned Exarch Powers Eldar received.

Well I don't know all that well what DE got except custom kabal building. Hard to comment on what I don't know. I have very little touch with dark eldars. At least with eldars I actually face them time to time. Dark eldars I face like once in a blue moon and last time was way before PA even started.

But sure. I could try to make up and make various claims on them without actually knowing anything about them That makes sense ;-) Or I could comment on the part of book that I have at least some idea.

edit: Actually now that it came up I did face custom kabal of dark eldars and as it happened it was practically tailor made against my necrons. Hard to say how good it was in practice seeing it was almost list tailoring(though we didn't know in advance we would be playing against each other when we designed lists. Just showed up on FLGS and since neither happened to have game and were there agreed to play and took out pre made forces).

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example

As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.

If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).

The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.

So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.

Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.

"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."

....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example

As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.

If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).

The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.

So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.

Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.

"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."

....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.

Not entirely true, Tyranids have garbage early codex traits and some how even worse custom traits.

Harlequins are an interesting one. They don't really need new masques, warlord traits, relics or strats as the ones they have are actually very good for such a small faction (in other words..there are actual choices to be made). What they sorely need is unit expansions. A character on skyweaver, a named character (probably a solitaire), another foot model choice (doubtful though). It's just a faction you can't do much with really and I'm happy it has a solid range as is with a decent codex along side. Happy to be proven wrong though.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You don't need models to be in PA book. Look at tyranis, t-son's, grey knights etc for example

As for sisters W40k FB team said they can confirm sistes are getting rules in PA. And makes sense. The codex isn't clearly on same level as PA boosted factions(no custom orders etc) so either they get or they are at disadvantage. Would it have been nicer to have PA level in codex right away? Yes. But it's GW. They are going to charge money for it.

If they said so I guess I'll believe them - but I'm not sure I'd go with your view that they are at a disadvantage without custom traits. We have just had PA5, and based on the leaks, almost all the custom trait combos are probably worse than taking an existing trait. Farsight Enclaves will probably be interesting - but thats a buff rather than a custom option. I feel this is likely to go double for Sisters, because their traits are very powerful. (It may, in turn, mean they get amazing custom traits, but I wouldn't bet a lot on that).

The issue with Harlequins is that they are not far off a Tempestus scale faction who already got the Tempestus treatment. I'm sure someone will bitterly disagree - but I feel there are not 6 meaningfully different ways to run Harlequins, so there are not really 6 meaningfully different chapters.

So I mean yeah, nothing stops a phoned in list of "custom" traits, where 2/3rds are just weaker versions of the existing traits, and say 6 Masque specific psychic powers and a few new stratagems. But I have... very little optimism that it will change the faction. Without new models I'm not getting that excited - there is only so much you can do with Troupes, Transports and Jetbikes. But maybe I lack imagination.

Yeah, the only armies where custom traits are really good are those armies with garbo 1st wave codex traits like Eldar.

"Hmmm, should I take a 6+++FNP, or should I take the old salamanders chapter trait+an extra -1AP on a bunch of my weapons? HMMMMMMMMMMM....."

....Or space marines who just get to have their cake and eat it too, so you can swap out your trait for a custom one if you don't like it and keep all your good supplement rules.

Not entirely true, Tyranids have garbage early codex traits and some how even worse custom traits.

I dunno, some of those look pretty solid to me. I know ignoring move and shoot heavy is one my nid playing friend has been very much enjoying. Move and shoot heavy+reroll 1s to hit within 6" of synapse has been pretty good for his nidzilla stuff.

 bullyboy wrote:
Harlequins are an interesting one. They don't really need new masques, warlord traits, relics or strats as the ones they have are actually very good for such a small faction (in other words..there are actual choices to be made). What they sorely need is unit expansions. A character on skyweaver, a named character (probably a solitaire), another foot model choice (doubtful though). It's just a faction you can't do much with really and I'm happy it has a solid range as is with a decent codex along side. Happy to be proven wrong though.

They could just give us back Land Raiders. Those'd help.

If Harlequins follow Cegorach the Laughing God would they still be Harlequins if they started following Ynnead the God of Death? I guess the answer is they are Reborn Harlequins. I would have preferred for the Harlequins to have gotten at least a new troupe type in PA instead of only being added to the Ynnari list, but it looks like this is all their going to get. So I guess they are off the list of upcoming armies.

The latest community article has a picture of space wolves old marines and terminators.
My interpretation of their message is:
"Remember 5th edition? When Space wolves were cool and dominated mid range combat.
When Terminators on the table put the fear of the emperor in your enemies.
Remember when assault cannons rocked!
REMEMBER 5TH EDITION!"

GW is all about nostalgia these days.

Dunno if anyone posted this, but Valhallans are Made To Order next week. Couldn't find a main 40k News & Rumor thread, so posted here.

 Fayric wrote:
The latest community article has a picture of space wolves old marines and terminators.
My interpretation of their message is:
"Remember 5th edition? When Space wolves were cool and dominated mid range combat.
When Terminators on the table put the fear of the emperor in your enemies.
Remember when assault cannons rocked!
REMEMBER 5TH EDITION!"

GW is all about nostalgia these days.

That's not exactly the 5th edition I remember...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
That's not exactly the 5th edition I remember...

My memberberries don't suffer from rose-tinted glasses. 5th through 7th were progressively worse and worse. 4th was the best ruleset until 8th came out - mainly because when 3rd was introduced it was so different than before that a bunch of weird cases popped up that 4th cleaned up. 5-7 is what turned me from a 40k player to not a 40k player. Awful, awful rules.

4th had the God awful Skimmer rules though. When I was new and playing Grey Knights (as I couldn't play my Necrons all the time), Skimmers almost felt like the opponent was cheating.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4th had the God awful Skimmer rules though. When I was new and playing Grey Knights (as I couldn't play my Necrons all the time), Skimmers almost felt like the opponent was cheating.

I started in 4th and it was my favorite edition as well before 8th was released. even considering the skimmer rule. i had so many lascannons on the board opponents never brought skimmers anyway. but yes they were annoying

 judgedoug wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
That's not exactly the 5th edition I remember...

My memberberries don't suffer from rose-tinted glasses. 5th through 7th were progressively worse and worse. 4th was the best ruleset until 8th came out - mainly because when 3rd was introduced it was so different than before that a bunch of weird cases popped up that 4th cleaned up. 5-7 is what turned me from a 40k player to not a 40k player. Awful, awful rules.

I started with 4th edition and for me this is true. I had the best fun during 4th edition. It also had the most mature and fun fluff untill drinking the blood of sisters arrived.