Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Such a "big deal" his model wasn't looked at for 20 odd years?
Neither was Abaddon's. I'm not sure what you're point is here.
TBF Abbadon, is and was allways messed up.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Castozor wrote: I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..
He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.
Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.
I can't believe someone is arguing that Ragnar Blackmane is a Mary Sue but Ghaz is not.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
The line in the book is what confirms a Loyalist return for me.
I don't see how.
Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist, so if it's only one it would necessarily be a Loyalist (but with Bile confirmed and Fulgrim frequently mentioned, I'm leaning towards two).
The only weird thing in this would be having that one loyalist primarch; there should be none. The chaos primarchs have existed in the fluff forever, so giving them models and rules makes perfect sense and is not a fluff abomination.
Seems obvious to me. Instead of writing "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" he could have equally written "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them. Do you see what I'm saying here reader? Do you get it? wink". (This isn't a criticism of his writing, he's a good writer, one of my favourites as far as BL goes, one of their only good ones imo).
/Edit - your other point though, I'm in agreement there. I was always fine with the fact that the Traitors had their Primarchs in Epic, it made sense fluff wise and wasn't imbalanced due to the scale of the game. Still though, now that we're in an era of Loyalist Primarchs in the model range I'm actually looking forard to Lion or Khan or someone returning, despite it making no real sense in the lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 20:48:50
insaniak wrote: Of course he's a Mary Sue. That's what Space Marines are. They're the biggest, baddest things in the galaxy, because they're the core force in a game that is designed around them.
That may be uninteresting, but it's pretty much the way things have been for the last 30 years.
No, it really isn't. Belial is roughly equivalent to Ragnar, and he certainly didn't hold Ghaz to a draw in prior lore. Although he wasn't killed it gave a sense of gravitas to Ghaz that he has now lost.
Such a "big deal" his model wasn't looked at for 20 odd years?
Neither was Abaddon's. I'm not sure what you're point is here.
My point is quite obvious - he wasn't a big deal. I don't remember 13 Wolf Crusades all focused on Ragnar trying to do something? I don't remember much lore about him at all until very recently, actually.
If I'm not mistaken, he was originally created as a model for Russ? Back when Primarchs existed and things were confused. He was made into Ragnar when GW decided that Primarchs didn't belong in 40k anymore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/11 20:53:05
No, it really isn't. Belial is roughly equivalent to Ragnar, and he certainly didn't hold Ghaz to a draw in prior lore. Although he wasn't killed it gave a sense of gravitas to Ghaz that he has now lost.
Yes... Because Ragnar is a Space Wolf, and Belial isn't.
Honestly, it's like you haven't been paying any attention to the background at all...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 20:56:32
No, it really isn't. Belial is roughly equivalent to Ragnar, and he certainly didn't hold Ghaz to a draw in prior lore. Although he wasn't killed it gave a sense of gravitas to Ghaz that he has now lost.
Yes... Because Ragnar is a Space Wolf, and Belial isn't.
Honestly, it's like you haven't been paying any attention to the background at all...
Space Wolves are inferior to Dark Angels though....
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
The line in the book is what confirms a Loyalist return for me.
I don't see how.
Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist, so if it's only one it would necessarily be a Loyalist (but with Bile confirmed and Fulgrim frequently mentioned, I'm leaning towards two).
The only weird thing in this would be having that one loyalist primarch; there should be none. The chaos primarchs have existed in the fluff forever, so giving them models and rules makes perfect sense and is not a fluff abomination.
Seems obvious to me. Instead of writing "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" he could have equally written "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them. Do you see what I'm saying here reader? Do you get it? wink".
That's definitely you reading too much into the line rather than the line implying anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 21:10:16
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
And quite flimsy. Ragnar has had books written about him. Multiple books. He's not just "some captain".
Books? Multiple books?! No way?! Waow. Colour me impressed!
I bet he's had entire campaigns themed around his exploits too right, being a character of such high renown? Big campaigns that cover multiple factions and focus on a single world? Campaigns that spawn entire rule books?
The line in the book is what confirms a Loyalist return for me.
I don't see how.
Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist, so if it's only one it would necessarily be a Loyalist (but with Bile confirmed and Fulgrim frequently mentioned, I'm leaning towards two).
The only weird thing in this would be having that one loyalist primarch; there should be none. The chaos primarchs have existed in the fluff forever, so giving them models and rules makes perfect sense and is not a fluff abomination.
Seems obvious to me. Instead of writing "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" he could have equally written "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them. Do you see what I'm saying here reader? Do you get it? wink".
That's definitely you reading too much into the line rather than the line implying anything.
Well, time will tell I suppose. I'll be very unsurprised though if we see Fulgrim vs Lion'el around June - August (maybe that's why the others of the big 4 got big name character remakes, whereas DA got some guy that we've met once in passing).
And quite flimsy. Ragnar has had books written about him. Multiple books. He's not just "some captain".
Books? Multiple books?! No way?! Waow. Colour me impressed!
I bet he's had entire campaigns themed around his exploits too right, being a character of such high renown? Big campaigns that cover multiple factions and focus on a single world? Campaigns that spawn entire rule books?
Jesus christ, get over it and move on. How many times have you complained about your threads being derailed and we've had 5 pages or so of "omg so unfair that super ork can be killed by a marine I don't like".
Can we all agree that nobody gives a crap either way since they're both alive and both factions get new stuff, nothing changes long term yadda yadda.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 22:00:27
And quite flimsy. Ragnar has had books written about him. Multiple books. He's not just "some captain".
Tbh if GW put as much attention to Ghaz as they have Ragnar and gave him a series of novels from his own view point and describe his actions and feats, then it would be an equal footing in terms of representation and epic tales. Ragnar could have 50 books written about him, but he is still just a Space Marine Captain. He's about as special as another First Founding Chapter's character, be it Cato Sicarius, Asmodai, Mephiston or Lysander. Hell, Belial is one of the Imperiums greatest swordsmen, not just his Chapters. But he is still just a Space Marine and Ghaz still mopped the floor with him. They arent Custodes. They arent the pinnacle of Humanity. So yeah, Ragnar... hes a good Space Wolf, but it ends there. He isnt ruling the Imperium or his Chapter, has hasnt really got any big goals or aspirations that shake the 40k universe.
Where as Ghaz is the sole Ork in power, he calls the shots, he governs the fights and the tactics. He has a vision that encompasses his race as a whole, he doesnt mess about and he gets on with it. I play Marines, my first army 14 years ago, but I know when there is a threat bigger than a Mary Sue character. Its why the duels dont work. Either side will get pissy about the outcome. Im pretty sure Ghaz wouldnt even fight Ragnar, hes smarter than that, he will send his lackies to deal with him, or drop a Rok on him. The Ork is on a mission, he doesnt have time to play around with dogs. He has more sectors to go to and more flames of war to stoke.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 22:05:14
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
JWBS wrote: If they brought Fulgrim into the setting, which Loyalist would they bring? I think, with Bile confirmed, that Fulgrim is possible, what with this and the other mentions of him that have been sprinkled into PA, and a new Loyalist Primarch is pretty much confirmed as part of the final big PA reveal as far as I'm concerned (The new Chris Wraight book has the line "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" halfway through chapter 2- this says to me 100% that there's a second Loyalist on the very near horizon).
Why would Fulgrim returning mean a Loyalist would come back? Didn't happen when Mortarion returned.
Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist
Not really. Daemon Primarchs have been active in the setting since the Heresy, whilst the Loyalist Primarchs - barring Gulliman - have been absent for a long, long, long time.
And quite flimsy. Ragnar has had books written about him. Multiple books. He's not just "some captain".
Books? Multiple books?! No way?! Waow. Colour me impressed!
I bet he's had entire campaigns themed around his exploits too right, being a character of such high renown? Big campaigns that cover multiple factions and focus on a single world? Campaigns that spawn entire rule books?
Jesus christ, get over it and move on. How many times have you complained about your threads being derailed and we've had 5 pages or so of "omg so unfair that super ork can be killed by a marine I don't like".
Can we all agree that nobody gives a crap either way since they're both alive and both factions get new stuff, nothing changes long term yadda yadda.
Are you claiming that the lore for Saga of the Beast is not on topic? You don't need to post inane rants because you dislike my opinion. Why don't you move on?
Castozor wrote: I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes. But since I've long since given up on GW fluff ever since they started those terrible HH series, the only thing that matters to me now is the models, and boy do I like that Ghaz. Looks like the new model will finally do his size justice. Would have preferred the base wasn't cluttered with terrain but at least it looks less bad on bigger models like Ghaz and Abby then it does on smaller ones.
The only joke is the amount of salt this has been getting. I haven't seen people making fun of Ghaz over this, just a lot of crying that Ragnar basically killed himself (which is impressive considering his has plot armour to make Cato Sicarius blush) to kill Ghaz, and Ghaz gets to walk it off with new wargear.
And quite flimsy. Ragnar has had books written about him. Multiple books. He's not just "some captain".
Books? Multiple books?! No way?! Waow. Colour me impressed!
I bet he's had entire campaigns themed around his exploits too right, being a character of such high renown? Big campaigns that cover multiple factions and focus on a single world? Campaigns that spawn entire rule books?
Jesus christ, get over it and move on. How many times have you complained about your threads being derailed and we've had 5 pages or so of "omg so unfair that super ork can be killed by a marine I don't like".
Can we all agree that nobody gives a crap either way since they're both alive and both factions get new stuff, nothing changes long term yadda yadda.
Are you claiming that the lore for Saga of the Beast is not on topic? You don't need to post inane rants because you dislike my opinion. Why don't you move on?
Because it doesn't matter, who has the most campaign books written about them. You've voiced your dismay at a character being killed by another character, other people have stated their opinions, why keep flogging it.
Discussing the fluff isn't the same as waving yardsticks at characters over who is the most awesome. The fact is ghaz survives, gets bigger and is still leading his big wagh.
Even your response to me just smacks of having to needlessly get the last word in.
Castozor wrote: I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..
He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.
Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.
Put that in perspective though: Ghaz took a Mary Sue down with him. That rarely happens in the lore when GW goes out of their way to make Space Marines look good.
Dudeface wrote: Because it doesn't matter, who has the most campaign books written about them. You've voiced your dismay at a character being killed by another character, other people have stated their opinions, why keep flogging it.
Discussing the fluff isn't the same as waving yardsticks at characters over who is the most awesome. The fact is ghaz survives, gets bigger and is still leading his big wagh.
Even your response to me just smacks of having to needlessly get the last word in.
I was quite literally quoted by someone and responded to them. Not sure what else you expect? Similarly here. If you quote me I assume you are looking for a response. Particularly when you start a comment with; "Jesus Christ get over it...." (not sure that follows Rule 1 but whatever).
Quite ironic you're moaning at me for discussing the fluff in this context, considering you've also had an opinion on it (in this very thread a few posts back).
You don't need me to tell you it's on topic either - a mod has engaged in the discussion. Furthermore, you have purposefully raised the topic again, in your comment to me, when I was actually discussing something else.
Perhaps the best advice I can give you is if you don't want to discuss a particular topic - don't actively bring it up when the conversation has moved on to needlessly insult someone.
PA5 came out in mid-late Feb, from memory. SoB remainder goes on pre-order on Saturday, and I'm not going to be surprised if we get SG stuff on the preview on Sunday. PA6 to go on pre-order on 28/3, maybe?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 22:54:10
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
PA5 came out in mid-late Feb, from memory. SoB remainder goes on pre-order on Saturday, and I'm not going to be surprised if we get SG stuff on the preview on Sunday. PA6 to go on pre-order on 28/3, maybe?
I hope not! Id prefer it to be the 21st for preorder! I have a doubles tournament in Warhammer World in May and I want that damn book for my Orkz
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
So what you're saying here is that every single new kit in the game should be heralded with a little short fiction piece of how they can kill primarchs, right? Because you just listed like...all of 40k's most notoriously worf'd characters in existence.
The c'tan got superman time punch retconned into a handwavy "then the necrons killed the star god guys somehow, we don't know, but they did it". Avatars get killed like every 12 seconds. And greater daemons are a snack for every faction and character whose shtick is they don't like chaos.
What I'm saying is what I'm saying. Greater Daemons, Avatars and (less so) C'tan each have stories about having went toe to toe against a Primarch(s) and pushed them harder than in any fight other than against their own brethren. Which frankly makes sense given their godlike nature.
Ragnar and Ghaz managing to effectively double KO each other is not on the same 'Worf level' as Calgar taking down an Avatar or Draigo downing Mortarion. Before the story came to fruition if I had to put money on a winner between Ghaz and Ragnar i'd have sided with Ghaz but I don't see them as being so far apart that the story isn't plausible.
Ragnar is well known for his combat prowess and is effectively the 'Face' of the Space Wolves even if he is not the highest 'Rank'. Perhaps not so much recently but certainly to the veterans out there who have knowledge of the 7 Novels that involve the character, or due to practically every Space Wolf thats featured being from Ragnar's Great Company even down to the upgrade packs, or those who remember a time when Ragnar was the only Wolf Lord with a model; back when Grimnar was little more than a blurb, a picture and a statline.
A character of that pedigree taking on Ghaz and managing to pull off a double KO is hardly on the same scale of ridiculousness as other characters bringing down beings that actually stood against the Primarch's and gave them a run for their money. If the Ghaz Vs Ragnar story was written in 2nd edition nobody would have batted an eye. But a similar story about Ragnar taking out a Bloodthirster or an Avatar would have raised an eyebrow or two.
Managing to survive having his head chopped off will only add to Ghazgul's legend as far as I'm concerned.
There are two Orks that we know of that challenged Primarchs. One was the Ork warlord pre Heresy that Horus killed to become the favoured son. The other is "The Beast" who could've destroyed Terra at a whim and who gave Vulcan a serious run for his money. GW has repeatedly referred to Ghaz as "The Beast" during this entire campaign. If that isn't supposed to make us think he's on - or at least moving towards - Primarch level, I don't know what is. The model is also massive by the looks - bigger than Guilliman or Abaddon.
What Ghaz represents is the culmination of what it is to be an Ork. He is the most threatening Ork in existence in the current setting bar none. He doesn't just represent the best "Goff" (as Russ is the greatest Space Wolf), he represents the greatest ORK (as a faction). There is no Ork above Ghaz and without his death, there never will be. I'd argue that Ghaz was one of the few enemies of mankind that was actually credible. He actually got stuff done, was one of the few "bad guys" to beat the heroes (Belial anyone?) and until very recently if he died he was dead."
I get what you are saying but just because we have some recent hype comparing him to 'the beast' doesn't make him automatically 'level up' to Primarch level without some clear lore behind it which to be fair there may well be given I am more familiar with older lore than the more recent stuff.
Should the story have been written? Probably not, I understand that plenty of folk will feel it cheapens Ghaz given that he considered more legendary for the Orks than Ragnar is amongst Space Marines as a whole. But folk trying to suggest if it came down to it someone of Ragnar's caliber wouldn't stand a fighting chance and get creamed by Ghaz in all circumstances either overestimates Ghaz or underestimates Ragnar.
So far as I'm concerned Ghaz is to The Beast what Calgar is to Gulliman, and Ragnar would handedly give Calgar a run for his money when it comes to 1v1 combat.
Yes Ghaz is the biggest baddest Ork just like Vect is the baddest Dark Eldar, Eldrad is the main guy for Eldar, Imotekh for Necrons, Abbadon for Chaos Marines, Creed for Guard, Farsight, Swarmlord, Celestine, Dante, Calgar, Azrael, Draigo, every faction has a main guy who pretty much never loses or they do but it's all part of the 'master plan' or they do but 'get better'. Space Marines are admittedly much more prone to this however they are also the faction that is written about much more than any other so it makes sense they have more examples of poor writing. It also makes sense they have more characters of such renown given that their own internal factions are more detailed and fleshed out.
It would be nice to have the same care and attention made to the Xenos and Chaos factions detailing more individual Clans/Craftworlds/Traitor Legions/Septs/Hive Fleets/Tomb World's and they have had more love in 8th than previous editions.
Anyway I think I have made my own views on the subject clear enough and seeing as how I've practically written Ragnar's 8th novel here and to avoid derailing the thread further if folk want to continue discussing the matter i'm open to doing so via PM.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/11 23:14:52
Space Wolves - Alpha Legion - Biel-Tan - Reikland - Lizardmen of Hexoatl - Slaaneshi Daemons
PA5 came out in mid-late Feb, from memory. SoB remainder goes on pre-order on Saturday, and I'm not going to be surprised if we get SG stuff on the preview on Sunday. PA6 to go on pre-order on 28/3, maybe?
I hope not! Id prefer it to be the 21st for preorder! I have a doubles tournament in Warhammer World in May and I want that damn book for my Orkz
Given the number of kits coming out for the Sisters int he next pre-order window, I'll be very surprised if they follow it with a second sequential 40k release weekend.
I don't think we're due anything for AOS - unless the Giant book arrives out of the blue - but we've seen previews of a number of things for smaller games that might crop up. Given I believe he crops up in the new WD, this might be the ZOAT weekend.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
PA5 came out in mid-late Feb, from memory. SoB remainder goes on pre-order on Saturday, and I'm not going to be surprised if we get SG stuff on the preview on Sunday. PA6 to go on pre-order on 28/3, maybe?
I hope not! Id prefer it to be the 21st for preorder! I have a doubles tournament in Warhammer World in May and I want that damn book for my Orkz
Given the number of kits coming out for the Sisters int he next pre-order window, I'll be very surprised if they follow it with a second sequential 40k release weekend.
I don't think we're due anything for AOS - unless the Giant book arrives out of the blue - but we've seen previews of a number of things for smaller games that might crop up. Given I believe he crops up in the new WD, this might be the ZOAT weekend.
Greater Good dropped on 15th Feb after the pre-order of 8th.
It's very unlikely, given the preview and where we are in the month, that we don't see pre-order on 21st for a 28th release for Saga.
It's already dragging a week behind what is "normal" for the PA schedule and both SW and Ork players are becoming impatient.
Castozor wrote: I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..
He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.
Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.
I can't believe someone is arguing that Ragnar Blackmane is a Mary Sue but Ghaz is not.
Seeing as orks only have one big bad, orks are naturally stronger than humans normally, yeah I do take offense. Me and AAE are not arguing Ghaz should be able to take down a primarch but some wolfboy threatening Demon primarchs and Ghaz? Yeah that's prime mary sue material. Having said that, Clockwork is right, I guess at least he killed (sort of) a major SM character. I just resent this lore because it establishes Orks as just another NPC faction. But fine, this is what GW wants, they better not complain if I get my models 3rd party now, because obviously I'm not a valued customer.
The story is just a vehicle to make Ragnar Primaris(don't read into that out of every faction to get new units in 8th Marines got the most and they are all primaris that cant mean anything....) and release a large Ghaz model.
It will be interesting to see any rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 00:14:44
Castozor wrote: I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..
He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.
Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.
I can't believe someone is arguing that Ragnar Blackmane is a Mary Sue but Ghaz is not.
Seeing as orks only have one big bad, orks are naturally stronger than humans normally, yeah I do take offense. Me and AAE are not arguing Ghaz should be able to take down a primarch but some wolfboy threatening Demon primarchs and Ghaz? Yeah that's prime mary sue material. Having said that, Clockwork is right, I guess at least he killed (sort of) a major SM character. I just resent this lore because it establishes Orks as just another NPC faction. But fine, this is what GW wants, they better not complain if I get my models 3rd party now, because obviously I'm not a valued customer.
Ghaz acheives a DKO and gets a new mini and...... you're offended? look this entire thing is done so they can ahve a rematch with their "bigger and moar powerful minis with bigger and moar powerful stat lines"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
