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People are going to hate me for this. But I actually miss the blast templates. I thought it made things cinematic and cool. It took up a lot of time, but it was cool. I also really miss how summoning was free and how even Space Marines could summon demons. That was cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 01:57:28
Murrax9 wrote: People are going to hate me for this. But I actually miss the blast templates. I thought it made things cinematic and cool.
I'm always torn on this one.
On one hand, blast markers and especially the flamer template were very cool. Nothing was more satisfying than laying down a flamer template and counting up how many unfortunate souls were about to be toasted to a crisp. And the Apoc blast markers were loads of fun. But, I don't miss the anal retentive folks who would spend a month every movement phase measuring out and placing all their minis 2" apart to make blast markers worthless. I am fortunate to have only encountered that a few times, but it was enough to make me think that a lack of blast markers was actually a good thing.
I also don't miss scattering every template. Jesus H. Christ what a waste of time...
By the same token, I think the newer system for blast weapons is fine in theory (as always, GW's concepts are wonderful; the execution of said concepts always leaves a lot to be desired), but the way they've implemented it makes these types of weapons far too swingy. If a flamer was D3+3, a Demolisher Cannon 2D3+2, Venom Cannons D3+1, and so on, then I think we'd have a nice middle ground between the two.
I miss the scale of older editions, when a character like Guilliman or Mortarion were just not within game's intended scale, and a the game was generally much more focused on units of W1 infantry interacting and terrain being relevant beyond just a cover save. While I don't really miss templates at all, I miss the scale where they worked. I miss there being risk in stuff like Deep Strike, terrain, etc.
The old FOC is definitely something I miss, in keeping with that smaller game scale.
That's not to say I don't enjoy the larger scale in its own way, my last tournament I ran an IG superheavy company, but at that point it's basically Apocalypse-lite, and the game rules should reflect that instead of trying to keep the fiddly bits of detail from the smaller scale while abandoning the actual things that defined that scale (e.g. differentiating between power weapon blade types, nobody needs to care if the champion has an axe or a sword in the middle of a tank battle)
I miss faction bonuses being characterful but not necessarily stupendously powerful in direct combat (e.g. instead of giving dice bonuses, modifiers, powerful stratagems, etc, they might give expanded access to FoC slots)
With respect to specific armies, I miss the functionality of my early 5E Iron Warriors. 4 10man squads of CSM's in Rhinos with icons, a couple flying Daemon Princes, 3 units of two Oblits, and two 6-man squads of combi-weapon equipped Terminators. Turn 1, rhinos and DP's rush forward, turns 2 and 3 have reserves come in on the Icons so they arrive without scatter and then proceed to blow up enemy vehicles or MC's, then infantry pile out of Rhinos to engage disembarked enemies and mop up. A little reliant on good luck for reserves, but was a fun and generally balanced list that had some real tactical depth to it (beyond "bring the biggest gun/most unkillable thing") and worked well enough to win a bunch of local tournaments for a couple of years. There were a lot of problems with the 4E CSM codex that was used through 5E, but I managed to make that particular list work really well.
There's a lot I don't miss, previous editions had a lot of garbage mechanics (and GW never got vehicles functioning right as an entirely distinct unit type with the AV system) that the game is far better without, but I do miss the older sense of scale.
EDIT: Also, the art and visuals. Far too much 40k stuff today looks like it came out of Blizzard's or Riot's visual studios. I miss the older cyberpunky/Heavy Metal/Blanche looks, mini's designs, and artwork.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 02:42:21
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
OTOH, the new org charts have way too high of an HW requirement. It's kind of silly that a platoon of riflemen requires two or three company commanders to lead it.
I think reducing the base requirement and maximum permissible number of HQ's per formation would be the one most important change I would make to the detachment system. There are just too many characters and heroes in the game.
100% agree with this. I really dislike having to buy more characters than I want. Two Battalions of Space Marines shouldn't require four HQs
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: That's because IMO, if it's man-packed and shoulder-fired, it's a second-rate AT gun, and if you only have one you're not going far.
It's the same gun that's featured on the vehicles designed for killing tanks, Land Raiders and Predators. Future-gun, pew pew!
I wouldn't really call it a powerful gun. A Predator carries 4 of them. That's like an Onto's battery of recoilless rifles. It works, but you really want to call in a real tank with a full on tank gun.
I have a hard time thinking of a Land Raider as not-a-real-tank. I would observe that my start in 40K is in an edition where one-shotting a tank with an infantry-portable weapon was not uncommon.
I see the deployment of the Lascannons on Marine tanks to be more of a logistical item. Less of an ammunition load so they can advance farther, faster and more independently while still keeping excellent anti-materiel firepower.
I think of a Predator as like the M113 armored cavalry vehicle thing that has a autocannon on top of an APC, because uh, that's what it is and what it looks like. It's not like legit tank like a Centurion or M60, and doesn't have a legit antitank gun. The lascannon option would be like equipping one with recoilless rifles, which can be effective against tanks, but aren't really a full substitute for a full tank gun on a tank.
The Land Raider doesn't have a powerful gun because it's a heavy transport with guns mounted in sponsons on the side for support.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 03:30:03
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
OTOH, the new org charts have way too high of an HW requirement. It's kind of silly that a platoon of riflemen requires two or three company commanders to lead it.
I think reducing the base requirement and maximum permissible number of HQ's per formation would be the one most important change I would make to the detachment system. There are just too many characters and heroes in the game.
100% agree with this. I really dislike having to buy more characters than I want. Two Battalions of Space Marines shouldn't require four HQs
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: That's because IMO, if it's man-packed and shoulder-fired, it's a second-rate AT gun, and if you only have one you're not going far.
It's the same gun that's featured on the vehicles designed for killing tanks, Land Raiders and Predators. Future-gun, pew pew!
I wouldn't really call it a powerful gun. A Predator carries 4 of them. That's like an Onto's battery of recoilless rifles. It works, but you really want to call in a real tank with a full on tank gun.
I have a hard time thinking of a Land Raider as not-a-real-tank. I would observe that my start in 40K is in an edition where one-shotting a tank with an infantry-portable weapon was not uncommon.
I see the deployment of the Lascannons on Marine tanks to be more of a logistical item. Less of an ammunition load so they can advance farther, faster and more independently while still keeping excellent anti-materiel firepower.
I think of a Predator as like the M113 armored cavalry vehicle thing that has a autocannon on top of an APC, because uh, that's what it is and what it looks like. It's not like legit tank like a Centurion or M60, and doesn't have a legit antitank gun. The lascannon option would be like equipping one with recoilless rifles, which can be effective against tanks, but aren't really a full substitute for a full tank gun on a tank.
The Land Raider doesn't have a powerful gun because it's a heavy transport with guns mounted in sponsons on the side for support.
Whether or not the Lascannon is a powerful gun depends quite a bit on the edition. I don't clearly recall, but I think a Vanquisher Cannon would still be hard pressed to out-perform four Lascannons in most of them.
Although maybe this depends on your idea of a powerful gun.
I miss 2nd edition. It was fun (even the melee phase) as long as you kept forces to a moderate size, and it was also the game that was out when I first got into the hobby. It has it's quirks, but nothing a fun opponent couldn't overcome. The core mechanics also gave us Necromunda and Gorkamorka! Everyone loves to hate the melee phase, but especially for small games like Necromunda, it worked pretty well.
Anyone remember when a mid-sized force was two squads (which might have only had 5 men each), a vehicle, maybe a squad of bikes/jump troops, and a character or two?
My friends and I even used to blend Necromunda with 40K and have tiny skirmish games of 40K where everyone moved individually and each side might have just 6-10 fighters, much like the Armageddon-pre Kill Team game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 04:01:42
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
^I've played a few 1000 point games of 2nd recently, and for Marines it's about 17 guys and one Dreadnought for an army. Squad of 10, squad of 5, Captain and Techmarine.
Way fewer if I cheese out a level 4 psyker, cuz he'll be like 300 odd points.
I miss the times when I was learning the rules for 40k with a friend and we were trying to rmemeber what the guy in the shop taught us as we were pushing around some mish mash figures around the carpet.
I still remember how we decided that BS would be used in the fight phase, because "they go ballistic..." and we'd laugh like hell role playing this.. Good ol times.
I also miss templates, scatter, vehicle facing and all that random bonkers stuff.
But most of all, I miss those crappy plastic trees you go in that that (3E?) DE starter set with the dark templars on the cover..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 04:46:37
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
H.B.M.C. wrote: And Marine power armour was just as useless in 2nd as it is today!
Necromunda is 2nd Ed perfected. That's where 2nd's 1-on-1 HTH rules came into their own.
Power armor was fine, it's just that every weapon hitting the battlefield had at least a -1 save, lol. Still better than Rogue Trader and Marines' power armor originally being a 4+ save!
Agree wholehartedly about melee and Necromunda, though.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Whether or not the Lascannon is a powerful gun depends quite a bit on the edition. I don't clearly recall, but I think a Vanquisher Cannon would still be hard pressed to out-perform four Lascannons in most of them.
Although maybe this depends on your idea of a powerful gun.
S8 AP2 Armorbane should outperform S9 AP2 not-armorbane in most editions. A S9 lascannon has a 17% chance of a penetration, a S8 Armorbane Vanquisher has a 59% chance of getting a pen. On the VDT they're the same. It takes about... 4 Lascannons [3.5] to equal a Vanquisher gun's odds.
Which is why the Vanquisher gun is a actual powerful tank gun, and the predator annihilator is comparable to like an ontos with 6 recoilless rifles to get the job done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 06:39:36
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I miss a ton, too much to list. I miss everything I think from when I started. The games felt more important, the flow was more fun and even the bad things just lead to some real laughs.
Everything feels more clinical, aside from the names used for units which sound like someone tripping out made them.
Hell, I love my space wolves and even I can't stand the names being so over the top, took me years before i could stomach saying Murderfang with a straight face. I still think its one of the dumbest names I've ever heard.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I miss a ton, too much to list. I miss everything I think from when I started. The games felt more important, the flow was more fun and even the bad things just lead to some real laughs.
Everything feels more clinical, aside from the names used for units which sound like someone tripping out made them.
Hell, I love my space wolves and even I can't stand the names being so over the top, took me years before i could stomach saying Murderfang with a straight face. I still think its one of the dumbest names I've ever heard.
s What's not to love about murdermurder the murdernaut with murderclaws and murderlust? \s murdermurdermurdermurderwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf
That said, I don't think a lot of the old names are really a whole lot less stupid. I mean "Devastator Squad", "Dominion Squad", and like all the aspect warrior names? There's more of them now, but like there were still a good share of silly names back in the day. And to some degree the names are nice, because "Heavy Weapons Squad" wouldn't be as exciting as "Devastator Squad".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 08:41:57
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
AngryAngel80 wrote: I miss a ton, too much to list. I miss everything I think from when I started. The games felt more important, the flow was more fun and even the bad things just lead to some real laughs.
Everything feels more clinical, aside from the names used for units which sound like someone tripping out made them.
Hell, I love my space wolves and even I can't stand the names being so over the top, took me years before i could stomach saying Murderfang with a straight face. I still think its one of the dumbest names I've ever heard.
s What's not to love about murdermurder the murdernaut with murderclaws and murderlust? \s murdermurdermurdermurderwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf
That said, I don't think a lot of the old names are really a whole lot less stupid. I mean "Devastator Squad", "Dominion Squad", and like all the aspect warrior names? There's more of them now, but like there were still a good share of silly names back in the day. And to some degree the names are nice, because "Heavy Weapons Squad" wouldn't be as exciting as "Devastator Squad".
Look at the Greater Daemon names (or just Daemon names generally) and they are some of the oldest ideas out there!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 08:51:32
AngryAngel80 wrote: I miss a ton, too much to list. I miss everything I think from when I started. The games felt more important, the flow was more fun and even the bad things just lead to some real laughs.
Everything feels more clinical, aside from the names used for units which sound like someone tripping out made them.
Hell, I love my space wolves and even I can't stand the names being so over the top, took me years before i could stomach saying Murderfang with a straight face. I still think its one of the dumbest names I've ever heard.
s What's not to love about murdermurder the murdernaut with murderclaws and murderlust? \s murdermurdermurdermurderwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf
That said, I don't think a lot of the old names are really a whole lot less stupid. I mean "Devastator Squad", "Dominion Squad", and like all the aspect warrior names? There's more of them now, but like there were still a good share of silly names back in the day. And to some degree the names are nice, because "Heavy Weapons Squad" wouldn't be as exciting as "Devastator Squad".
Look at the Greater Daemon names (or just Daemon names generally) and they are some of the oldest ideas out there!
I remember Belthazar (i now fantasy) but we had a rule in our shop we could only say his German name. Der Dunkle Meister. The Deamon players hated it.
I do love some of the older names though. I actually think they were cheesier back when.
I kinda miss the day where we had real campaignbooks not PA.
I also miss the day of one rulesource per army, (sadly GW just handled it wrong, and armies had decade long thirst parts.)
I miss IA 13, prehaps most obviously due to my sigil.
I miss templates and the smaller scale of the matches. Former due to terrain positioning etc actually beeing alot more important and indepth and the latter due to the absurd lethality that we now have. Sizecreep is also an issue.
I miss orkboys BS 4+.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I miss the Hellhound tank. Not only did it use a heavy flamer template but you rolled a dice and moved the template forward across the board that number of inches. Woomph.
I miss the old citadel catalogue with all their weird old minis, where you could ring up the goblins in Nottingham and order individual parts.
I miss the Mark of Khorne giving my terminators a 2+ save on 2D6!
Oh yes, I miss my codex being all I needed for my army as well. I never thought have all my rules in just one book would feel like a gift. It does though.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Oh yes, I miss my codex being all I needed for my army as well. I never thought have all my rules in just one book would feel like a gift. It does though.
What you mean? As a DA player I only need the codex, CA19, the CA19 points book and the Psychic awakening. Only four books to play the game.
In seriousness I do miss the days where a new codex was like OMG catelog for shiny. Now Codex is cool, let's see what released in a few months when CA20 comes out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 14:12:56
Murrax9 wrote: People are going to hate me for this. But I actually miss the blast templates. I thought it made things cinematic and cool.
I'm always torn on this one.
On one hand, blast markers and especially the flamer template were very cool. Nothing was more satisfying than laying down a flamer template and counting up how many unfortunate souls were about to be toasted to a crisp. And the Apoc blast markers were loads of fun. But, I don't miss the anal retentive folks who would spend a month every movement phase measuring out and placing all their minis 2" apart to make blast markers worthless. I am fortunate to have only encountered that a few times, but it was enough to make me think that a lack of blast markers was actually a good thing.
I also don't miss scattering every template. Jesus H. Christ what a waste of time...
By the same token, I think the newer system for blast weapons is fine in theory (as always, GW's concepts are wonderful; the execution of said concepts always leaves a lot to be desired), but the way they've implemented it makes these types of weapons far too swingy. If a flamer was D3+3, a Demolisher Cannon 2D3+2, Venom Cannons D3+1, and so on, then I think we'd have a nice middle ground between the two.
also imagine the horde army's point of view. when i first got into the game i read a lot of fluff and decided on orks... it was super disappointing and nto fun for me to put my army down and if my opponent brought templates I would just be scoopign up this army that I had painted 180 ork boyz for up by the handful and never would get the satisfaction of reaching combat. a lot of my first games were... put this army that i spent a lot of my money (i was a college student at that time) and effort (all painted) just to spend a few hours where every game my oppnents got the satisfaction of pie plating and small blasting/flaming away my army. sternguard with flamers woudl drop pod in and oen squad could reck my whole army in one turn with 5 flame templates out of an automatically landing where it wanted drop pod.
mrFickle wrote: I miss all the funny dice, d3 through to d20. I don’t know why but when I was a kid I thought it was cool
So.... You're missing the wrong game.
2nd ed used at least d8 and d10 for armor penetration roles. d12 and d4 too iirc.
I had a 20 year hiatus from 40k not sure if I played 2ed or 3ed but jumped up to 8ed last year. Can’t remember exactly what dice were used but I swear there was a d20 involved. I still have old codexes I may have a look
Whether or not the Lascannon is a powerful gun depends quite a bit on the edition. I don't clearly recall, but I think a Vanquisher Cannon would still be hard pressed to out-perform four Lascannons in most of them.
Although maybe this depends on your idea of a powerful gun.
S8 AP2 Armorbane should outperform S9 AP2 not-armorbane in most editions. A S9 lascannon has a 17% chance of a penetration, a S8 Armorbane Vanquisher has a 59% chance of getting a pen. On the VDT they're the same. It takes about... 4 Lascannons [3.5] to equal a Vanquisher gun's odds.
Which is why the Vanquisher gun is a actual powerful tank gun, and the predator annihilator is comparable to like an ontos with 6 recoilless rifles to get the job done.
I mean, if the effect winds up being the same* anyways I don't see why not to call the thing a "legit tank". I think I often prefer the exotic nature of a bunch of lasers and/or the idiosyncratic format of the Land Raider.
The "exotic-future-weapon" especially extends to the Multimelta, which is man-portable and also hits as hard as the Vanquisher (Melta vs. Armorbane in the 6th-7th ed example). Actually a bit harder because of the AP1. Obviously there's the range difference, but you get that sweet, sweet 1950's heat-ray imagery.
*Unless the Vanquisher has changed since the Index (I only have the IG in index), the four Lascannons currently far, far outshine it.
In the 6th-7th Paradigm four Lascannons I think wind up faring much better against lighter armor, vs. the Vanquisher. You get multiple hits for multiple damage effect rolls. Then again, twin-linking reduces the number of rolls to Pen. Lots of factors involved.
mrFickle wrote: I miss all the funny dice, d3 through to d20. I don’t know why but when I was a kid I thought it was cool
So.... You're missing the wrong game.
2nd ed used at least d8 and d10 for armor penetration roles. d12 and d4 too iirc.
I had a 20 year hiatus from 40k not sure if I played 2ed or 3ed but jumped up to 8ed last year. Can’t remember exactly what dice were used but I swear there was a d20 involved. I still have old codexes I may have a look
A Powerfist was 8+D6+D20 for Armor penetration
Chainfist was 10+D4+D6+D20 A Multimelta was 8+D6+2D12, plus a 4" diameter blast marker, which meant it hit multiple locations on a vehicle. Lascannon 3D6+9
Krak Missile D6+D10+8
Assault Cannon D6+D10+8 for each shot that hit, which was up to 9 if you got real lucky.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/12 18:23:09
- Wargear Cards - when Dante didn't have an Inferno Pistol, he had THE Inferno Pistol. As in one. Singular.
- Singular Chaos Lightning Claws - when lightning claws were exceptionally rare, and exactly one and only one guy in the galaxy had a pair, and that guy was Horus.
- Great Terminators - when terminators were actually worth their points costs, and were the bad-asses you would expect them to be
- Terminator exclusive weapons - where a little marine couldn't even wield a thunder hammer, stormshield, or lightning claw, because his armor didn't have the power supply necessary to make it function
- Pewter miniatures - I'll pass on all this plastic garbage. Give me miniatures that actually weigh something.
- Citadel Miniatures Catalogues - where you could spend hours and hours looking for just the bits for that awesome conversion you wanted to do
- Bits Service - where GW would actually take your money for those bits you wanted to buy from them
- over the shoulder heavy weapons - because heaven forbid someone would ever look like they could hit anything
- there being no airplanes - because really, airplanes at this scale? Are you insane? Half a city block is the size battlefield you need for that nonsense
- displacer fields - because fun
I miss the hand drawn/painted artwork in the books (and on unit boxes). I also miss the first person stories that were more common in old books. I also miss gw using homemade terrain when they display their miniatures, instead of just plastics.
It’s when I started, had a small circle of friends, and massive, ridiculous Sunday battles at my local GW.
Many of those friends are still my friends now, including all three of the GW staffers. And near everyone else in my social circle I know through them and other Nerds.
Unsurprisingly, everything felt fresh and new, because it was. Prices were relative, and every new blister or box was a treat. Eventually wound up with a near unprecedented, Codex compliant company of Dark Angels, plus assorted support. Even got to field the whole bunch on my 18th birthday (cracking game!).
I guess it’s definitely just the ‘new hobby is ace!’ nostalgia, and way before I discovered t’internet.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I miss the days of Grimdark, everything is bad for everyone, rather than the "Super Marine Avengers Are Here To Win Again" in just about every narrative.
Yes I get that having them as the good guy hero bois probably sells GW more models to kids.
Blister pack sales. Truly worth the trip to the store!
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Eldar- 4436 pts
15k+
Beastmen 10k
5500
7000 
