Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 IronSlug wrote:
90's in pop culture where the edgy over the top years. Vampire the masquerade for intance was out in 91. Garbage pail kids in 89. I could find many other examples but I am lazy.

Are (were) 'nt the 2010 more appealed by dark but moral stories ? I mean it's the Super-heroes movies decade...

I feel like 90's were grimdark years when 10's are nobledark ones. GW writers are certainly not following a trend as much as they simply are the product of their environnement, like we are.

The only problem is that IMO nobledark doesn't fit the wh40k setting at all and makes it look plainly silly.

Awesome comment. Exalted

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Short answer, yes. Longer answer, it doesn't appeal to happier people

What are you talking about, happy people are the target audience for comedy.

I measure myself to be merely "content" and as long as my faction (Tau) makes sense, the others can be as grimderp as they wanna be as long as I don't have to read their codices. Periods in my life where I want to giggle more than usual I'll break out my Dark Eldar, IG or Tyranids. (Or if I REALLY need it, Spess Muhreens)

soviet13 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

So 1990 then?

Seriously, check out Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. Nurglings are smirking, mischievous, cartoonish things even then. The 'grimdark all the time' thing is mostly a 3e invention. They've toned it down a bit since then but it's still IMO darker than it was in Rogue Trader and (in particular) 2e.

Yup. Not getting this at all. The jolly rictus grin has been a feature of Nurgle minis and art since day 1. There’s a grinning GUO on the cover of LATD....

I think painting style is a big thing for Nurgle.

GW's style is very bold and bright colours and a fairly simplistic cartoon approach, which makes things look less vile. However if you go with darker tones, more fleshy puss oozing colours and perhaps mix in some matt and gloss varnish to make the exposed juices look more fluid etc... then the whole appearance of the models changes dramatically.

 Overread wrote:
I think painting style is a big thing for Nurgle.

GW's style is very bold and bright colours and a fairly simplistic cartoon approach, which makes things look less vile. However if you go with darker tones, more fleshy puss oozing colours and perhaps mix in some matt and gloss varnish to make the exposed juices look more fluid etc... then the whole appearance of the models changes dramatically.

Yup. I despise GW’s pastel toned Nurgle scheme with a passion. Mine are a sort of brown/green sludge colour with plenty of fluids dripping out of them.

Irks me whenever I see someone else’s Nurgle minis and they haven’t at least put some gloss on things like exposed guts etc. Guys, that stuff will be wet, like really wet.

soviet13 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

So 1990 then?

Seriously, check out Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. Nurglings are smirking, mischievous, cartoonish things even then. The 'grimdark all the time' thing is mostly a 3e invention. They've toned it down a bit since then but it's still IMO darker than it was in Rogue Trader and (in particular) 2e.

Indeed. Been reading my reprint copy the past few weeks (now available exclusively at Warhammer World, or through the loot group if you join the waiting list).

Nurgle has always been portrayed as a jovial, caring (if completely insane) deity. Nurglings have always been 'cutsey' burbling little balls of filth. Beasts of Nurgle have always been gloopy, slobbery and puppy like in their affection.

 Strg Alt wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

Thats bizare - Nurglings have always been like that from day one. Cute, smelly fat diseased imps. I have plenty of the old metal Nurglings as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

Thats bizare - Nurglings have always been like that from day one. Cute, smelly fat diseased imps. I have plenty of the old metal Nurglings as well.

Are you trying to troll me? The metal nurglings aren't comparable in any way to the plastic trash we got today. And no, the nurglings which I am talking about are not from 1990. They were introduced around 3rd.

The only smiling dude was the Great Unclean One which is fine with me. But nowadays we have cartoonish nurglings too and the abyssmal guy who rides on a slug. He looks as stupid as the Necron who thinks he is Michael "Air" Jordan. Who should take these morons seriously? Short answer: No one. That's why Grimdark is dead and the Age of Cringe finally arrived into 40K.

 Strg Alt wrote:
That's why Grimdark is dead and the Age of Cringe finally arrived into 40K.

The only thing cringe is this take.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

Thats bizare - Nurglings have always been like that from day one. Cute, smelly fat diseased imps. I have plenty of the old metal Nurglings as well.

Are you trying to troll me? The metal nurglings aren't comparable in any way to the plastic trash we got today. And no, the nurglings which I am talking about are not from 1990. They were introduced around 3rd.

The only smiling dude was the Great Unclean One which is fine with me. But nowadays we have cartoonish nurglings too and the abyssmal guy who rides on a slug. He looks as stupid as the Necron who thinks he is Michael "Air" Jordan. Who should take these morons seriously? Short answer: No one. That's why Grimdark is dead and the Age of Cringe finally arrived into 40K.

Literally wrong. Go on SoLegends. Look at the Nurglings (MDG has even provided the page ITT). Note how jolly they look, one is even tittering for himself. I’ve had this out with you before but you won’t have it so kindly jog on with this incorrect rhetoric.

Short answer is no. The world is still grimdark and no person should ever want to live in that universe.

Long answer is that GW has been throwing away the edgelord stuff they used to have back in their heydays. That is a good thing.

What’s Edgelord?

Also I think we have mainly agreement that the 40k setting is STILL grimdark, but I was really asking is are we seeing an attempt, in action, to slowly move away from that or create a nicer shop window and leave the grim dark for the next level of player.

2 really interesting points I’ve seen one here (and I am paraphrasing):

1. The collectible action figure stuff I mentioned actually had been created for a certain type of adult customer, the collector geek.

2. Grimdark is a product of generation X and we don’t live in that world anymore. We live an a world of Facebook, and instagram where everything looks totes amazeballs. So although grimdark is in the lore GW is really just following modern consumer trends.

mrFickle wrote:
What’s Edgelord?

Also I think we have mainly agreement that the 40k setting is STILL grimdark, but I was really asking is are we seeing an attempt, in action, to slowly move away from that or create a nicer shop window and leave the grim dark for the next level of player.

2 really interesting points I’ve seen one here (and I am paraphrasing):

1. The collectible action figure stuff I mentioned actually had been created for a certain type of adult customer, the collector geek.

2. Grimdark is a product of generation X and we don’t live in that world anymore. We live an a world of Facebook, and instagram where everything looks totes amazeballs. So although grimdark is in the lore GW is really just following modern consumer trends.

'Edgelord' is derogatory term for a certain stereotype of [player] that overplays a certain "edgy" element or idea; often seen as detriment to the enjoyment of others.

I disagree with observation #2. Partly because Facebook is about the most Grimdark thing I can think of, but also because I think it's just a maturing of what's there. As other's have said, there's nothing nice about Penitent Engines(or... anything not shiny Marine(who still have their own grimdark))

mrFickle wrote:
What’s Edgelord?

An “edgelord” is a term for someone who tries too hard to be “edgy”- “Look at me, I’m suicidal, I’m depressed, life is awful-“, when really they’re none of those things. They’re mostly about 12, and hang around on r/teenagers.

Edit: ninja’d

 DalekCheese wrote:

Edit: ninja’d

One of the most Edgelord prone characters (in my experience)

mrFickle wrote:Also I think we have mainly agreement that the 40k setting is STILL grimdark, but I was really asking is are we seeing an attempt, in action, to slowly move away from that or create a nicer shop window and leave the grim dark for the next level of player.

Well, in my experience, shop window 40k has ALWAYS been "here's a noble Space Marine cardboard cut out, and here's the latest big event that you can join in", not "did I tell you that the humans in this setting are xenophobic fascists"?

I don't think GW are making an effort to move away from anything, I think they're leaning more into the "you like this setting, here's all the stuff you get in it!", as you later say, the 'collector'.

1. The collectible action figure stuff I mentioned actually had been created for a certain type of adult customer, the collector geek.

Yeah, this one's easy enough. Themed items of all kinds are both solid income, and good portions of the fanbase like trinkets and custom designed clothes and whatever. So not even just alongside the chibis and funko pops, you've got themed leggings (need to pick up some of my own!), hoodies, dice, mugs, etc. It's just expanding what can be related to the world of 40k.

2. Grimdark is a product of generation X and we don’t live in that world anymore. We live an a world of Facebook, and instagram where everything looks totes amazeballs. So although grimdark is in the lore GW is really just following modern consumer trends.

Still don't really agree with that. If anything, modern society is increasingly nihilistic, divided, and aggressive. Modern consumer trends are brand recognition and nostalgia, over many other things. Nostalgia is especially formidable for GW, because many people who started a lot younger, back before the new millennium, are now coming back to the hobby with disposable income - and so revitalising old model lines and games (like Titanicus, Aeronautica, Necromunda, etc) is a good way to hook them in.

I'd agree that in terms of shop front and website, GW has never really pushed the GrimDark.

Sure, when I started out, most GW stores I'd visit (Edinburgh, Maidstone, Torquay) would be playing Heavy Metal, often Thrash.

But the signage wasn't Metal. The displays weren't Metal. Indeed the only warning that I can think of was on the Realm of Chaos books, with the 'suggested for mature readers' sticker



See, it was a thing! Also absent on the reprints (so a cunning way to tell if someone is trying to rip you off. The Doc Knows All*!)

Those books were and indeed are, notably gnarly. The artwork is definitely not what most kids are used to - but I wouldn't say it's therefore not Kid Friendly. There's no, well, rude bits. You know the ones. The ones that get ruder and ruder as we grow And being largely (entirely?) pencil or black and white, little gore to be seen in a manner that might cause automatic Pearl Clutching.

But, that's about it. 40k has never really been pushed on it's rather unsubtle subtext. Beyond 'everyone is fighting, all the time, the gods are laughing, you will not be missed', it's left to the Hobbyist to delve in, and find the horror.

*Actually level of knowing all severely overstated. No refunds.

So the nurglings, going through the old ones and its somewhat striking how different they are to the ones we have now in terms of "grim dark" the modern ones are indeed derpy, playful little pixies or faeries, that kind of mischief surrounds them.

The old ones though, they seem to have the feel of demonic little anarchistic evil zombie babies, they look like they are in pain and want to spread it.

while both still have that somewhat jovial look and theme in places (more so with the new ones) the old ones just have an altogether different feel, I know that is subjective and I am not saying one is better than the other but the difference is absolutely noticeable.

either way its nice to see the progression over time and makes me happy I still have some nurglings from every era

But the background is the same.

Nurglings are, well, not [quite] malevolent. They're definitely playful, and enjoy a good laugh. And they've always been described as overwhelming enemies in a squealing, biting, scratching tide - and the diseases they carry proving far more fatal than the attack itself.

That's....never changed. I for one consider something ostensibly kinda cute actually being a surprisingly vicious killer far creepier than 'oh noes, must be evil because evil face'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think people need to better consider what is meant by Grimdark.

40k remains a highly oppressive and hostile setting. The vast, vast majority of humanity will never know the peace many of us on here enjoy.

By that, I mean things like holidays, weekends, full bellies, a comfortable bed, trips to the pub etc.

Instead, the vast majority face short, miserable lives of near endless toil. Poor food, little if any sunlight, pollutants everywhere, zero health and safety.

Recruits to the Astra Militarum are outright lied to. Because all they are is disposable. Just another ammo pack in the colossal warmachine that is The Imperium.

Truth and freedom of expression are utterly suppressed. With our god like view of things, we can argue it's for good reason (the less you know, the less likely you are to try to learn more). But it's now become By Rote, so nobody really knows anything about anything. It's Just The Way Things Are.

The despair comes from the total lack of respite. The Primaris, shiny and new, are simply the latest gasp of air above the water of a drowning man. The slightest extension before the inevitable.

Nothing is ever going to improve. Mankind's enemies are too many. It's Empire too big. It's logistics too mind boggling. There is no enlightment amongst the stars. Mankind is simply too stubborn to accept the inevitable. And so they fight on and on and on and on.

The same is true of the Eldar. Whichever stripe, they're a doomed race. They've plunged from grace, and will never return. They lack the numbers, and even with Commorite tech, they'll never have the numbers to reclaim what was lost.

Necrons? They've lost everything already. Are any of them even sane? Any at all? Even The Silent King? Who knows. All they are are Kings of Ashes. Their empire turned to dust, their subjects mindless automata.

Orks? Yeah, OK, Orks are definitely and definitively happy. Always have been, always will be. Up The Orks!

Chaos? Oh you poor, poor fools. Yes you are arguably right to fight against the ever present oppression of The Imperium. Shame about the intent of those you sided with. Like any peasants caught up in any revolution? You're not coming out of this well. At all. That includes Chaos Space Marines.

Tau? Sweet Summer Children With Ribbons In Their Hair. They genuinely believe they've killed Slaanesh. As a race, they're utterly naive. Only time will tell if they can survive long enough to learn those harsh lessons. And how well will The Greater Good as it currently stands hold up once The Inevitable Maths occurs.

Tyranids? They're just hunger incarnate. Unfeeling, uncaring. Existing only on their mad crusade to breed in ever larger numbers.

40k is, was and always will be a living hell. There are NO good guys. There are NO bad guys. Just fools, idiots, and every single one of them damned.

Wait, where's this thing about killing Slaanesh come from? Why would the Tau think that?

3rd ed codex, a tau force killed a slaaneshi champion, and assumed that slaanesh was the warband leaders' name. So no, they don't think they killed a god.

Cronch wrote:
3rd ed codex, a tau force killed a slaaneshi champion, and assumed that slaanesh was the warband leaders' name. So no, they don't think they killed a god.

Isn't it more that they don't believe that the Chaos and Imperium forces at as vast and powerful and godlike as they are. So killing a Slaanesh Champion to them is killing this great evil Slaanesh that they've heard all these stories about and they assume hte Greater Demon is this great evil monsters.



I think the more modern lore is that Tau are starting to realise that they really are a tiny cog against some vast war machines. Heck the Tau only survived because the Imperium forgot about them several thousand years ago. It's hard to have high aspirations of yourself when you have to accept that the only reason you were allowed to evolve is because of an admin error on the part of the local super-power. It's right up there with the Earth being destroyed to make way for a new intergalactic hyperspace highway route.

Pretty sure it was a WD article.

But it still serves to show how utterly naive they are a species. They've literally no idea what's out there, waiting for them.

How long do you think they'd last against Leviathan, on the scale Macragge suffered?

How long do you think they'll last once Gue'la start worshipping Chaos? I mean, they allow pretty much any worship. Will they figure it out before a warp rift is opened and a planet falls to Daemons? They've only got brute force to rely on. No hexagrammic, no faith miracles etc. Just shoot, shoot and shoot some more.

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
3rd ed codex, a tau force killed a slaaneshi champion, and assumed that slaanesh was the warband leaders' name. So no, they don't think they killed a god.

Isn't it more that they don't believe that the Chaos and Imperium forces at as vast and powerful and godlike as they are. So killing a Slaanesh Champion to them is killing this great evil Slaanesh that they've heard all these stories about and they assume hte Greater Demon is this great evil monsters.



I think the more modern lore is that Tau are starting to realise that they really are a tiny cog against some vast war machines. Heck the Tau only survived because the Imperium forgot about them several thousand years ago. It's hard to have high aspirations of yourself when you have to accept that the only reason you were allowed to evolve is because of an admin error on the part of the local super-power. It's right up there with the Earth being destroyed to make way for a new intergalactic hyperspace highway route.

They survived because they got caught in a Warp Storm and got lucky the Imperium was distracted by (another) civil war. So I'd say they survived because another race saw them and thought "hey look a useful pawn".

pm713 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
3rd ed codex, a tau force killed a slaaneshi champion, and assumed that slaanesh was the warband leaders' name. So no, they don't think they killed a god.

Isn't it more that they don't believe that the Chaos and Imperium forces at as vast and powerful and godlike as they are. So killing a Slaanesh Champion to them is killing this great evil Slaanesh that they've heard all these stories about and they assume hte Greater Demon is this great evil monsters.



I think the more modern lore is that Tau are starting to realise that they really are a tiny cog against some vast war machines. Heck the Tau only survived because the Imperium forgot about them several thousand years ago. It's hard to have high aspirations of yourself when you have to accept that the only reason you were allowed to evolve is because of an admin error on the part of the local super-power. It's right up there with the Earth being destroyed to make way for a new intergalactic hyperspace highway route.

They survived because they got caught in a Warp Storm and got lucky the Imperium was distracted by (another) civil war. So I'd say they survived because another race saw them and thought "hey look a useful pawn".

Isn't there still a lot of talk that the Eldar had a hand in it?


Tau have also gone through a design change too - I can well see GW splitting them like they did with Tyranids and Genestealer cults. Having Tau Imperium with the mecha focused Tau and then Tau Auxillery force which is all the Kroot and Vespid and allied forces. I'm still somewhat sad that Tau didn't become the "catch all" army with loads of different small faction xenos. Not that I dislike their mecha focus - which I think is equally great.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The Primaris, shiny and new, are simply the latest gasp of air above the water of a drowning man. The slightest extension before the inevitable.

Exactly what I've been saying about Primaris. They're another log thrown on a dying fire, another twist of the knife. It's not this big "humanity's safe, we're all fine now because PROGRESS!" hurrah, it's a "this is the only thing that stopped us getting even more battered by half the galaxy being lost behind a veil of madness".

As for the rest of the post, exalted. Perfectly sums up my thoughts on "is 40k still grimdark".

 Overread wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
3rd ed codex, a tau force killed a slaaneshi champion, and assumed that slaanesh was the warband leaders' name. So no, they don't think they killed a god.

Isn't it more that they don't believe that the Chaos and Imperium forces at as vast and powerful and godlike as they are. So killing a Slaanesh Champion to them is killing this great evil Slaanesh that they've heard all these stories about and they assume hte Greater Demon is this great evil monsters.



I think the more modern lore is that Tau are starting to realise that they really are a tiny cog against some vast war machines. Heck the Tau only survived because the Imperium forgot about them several thousand years ago. It's hard to have high aspirations of yourself when you have to accept that the only reason you were allowed to evolve is because of an admin error on the part of the local super-power. It's right up there with the Earth being destroyed to make way for a new intergalactic hyperspace highway route.

They survived because they got caught in a Warp Storm and got lucky the Imperium was distracted by (another) civil war. So I'd say they survived because another race saw them and thought "hey look a useful pawn".

Isn't there still a lot of talk that the Eldar had a hand in it?


Tau have also gone through a design change too - I can well see GW splitting them like they did with Tyranids and Genestealer cults. Having Tau Imperium with the mecha focused Tau and then Tau Auxillery force which is all the Kroot and Vespid and allied forces. I'm still somewhat sad that Tau didn't become the "catch all" army with loads of different small faction xenos. Not that I dislike their mecha focus - which I think is equally great.

There's no solid lore that says the Eldar did it but considering that they were saved from extinction in the stone age by a Warp Storm (that Eldar can summon) and later became such a rapidly advancing empire because of the Ethereals (who literally appeared from nowhere with flashing lights) then it's pretty likely that someone interfered with it and that's 80% of what Eldar do.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I think so, and it's not happening whole sale it's happening slowly. However you can't ignore the much more kiddy nature of recent things, little chibi marines, action figures, etc, etc. You could say its just marketing and part of it is but it also seems a direct press in a certain direction.

I strongly, strongly suspect these are done as ways to gain traction in the Japanese, and then Pan-Asian market. The pockets of Japanese who have serious hobbies can run very deep, China is full of new-money and spoiled children, and Korea is maybe something between the two? (IDK much about Korea).

Taiwan for its part tends to sit closer to Japan in terms of how its nerds spend money, both the locals and the transplants.

Yeah. . . much of this falls under the banner of "It's all there, but it ain't quite the same. . . "



And I'll take the first one, any day of the week.

I just finished the Siege of Terra book "Lost and the Damned" and I'd argue it's a perfect example of why the answer would be "no".

Terra is being defended by some of it's noblest warriors. The Imperial Fists. The Blood Angels. The White Scars and their "Primarch of the people".

They're fighting for literally the survival of the human race. If Horus wins, things go down the toilet, Chaos has won, enjoy the minutes you have left before a Slaaneshi daemon pops out of your neighbor and catches you.

We as the all-knowing audience understand this. And that knowledge is contrasted against the experience of an average Joe thrust into the conflict against his will. (Possibly spoilers, added the tag just in case)



All of this suffering and brutality and deadly pragmatism in what is supposed to be the most black/white battle in the lore.

Nah I don't think they're dimming it down. Like others have said a million times in this thread, the slightest scratch beneath the surface gives you all the grimdark you'll need.