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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

changemod wrote:
Seems a bit wonky in relevance to chapters getting doubled up bonuses during certain doctrines? Favours chapters who get their doubled assault benefit for the entire rest of the game as of turn 3, I mean

Which is offset by said bonus not kicking in until turn 3. A bonus that's active immediately is, ceteris paribus, better than one you have to wait for.

yes, but ultramarines proc double in tactical and they can have that in 2ed and 3ed turn. that is substential buff to them, when comparing to other marine nerfs.

Now I don't know how this will pan out for all the marine armies. But it is strange to have a codex writen in mind that your army stays in devastator for 3-4 turns, and then you suppose to change to assault, only you don't because it aint worth it, to now being in devastaror only turn 1 and then losing half your armies special rules, because you can never stay or come back to the doctrin. Maybe after turn 3 you should be able to choose in which doctrin you want to be?

Quasistellar wrote:
On the contrary I appreciate their restraint while also addressing the Doctrines. I was convinced they'd specifically annihilate Iron Hands while leaving every other chapter (too) strong.

I have to agree.

GW is all too capable of swinging that pendulum with amazing gusto. I was expecting them to nerf various types of Dreadnoughts into the dirt, hurting all Marine players when it was a combination of Iron Hands rules (not Dread rules) causing the problem.

The fact that they didn't is the impressive part.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
On the contrary I appreciate their restraint while also addressing the Doctrines. I was convinced they'd specifically annihilate Iron Hands while leaving every other chapter (too) strong.

I have to agree.

GW is all too capable of swinging that pendulum with amazing gusto. I was expecting them to nerf various types of Dreadnoughts into the dirt, hurting all Marine players when it was a combination of Iron Hands rules (not Dread rules) causing the problem.

The fact that they didn't is the impressive part.

Shame the players had to be Betatesters once again.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Shame the players had to be Betatesters once again.

Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.

But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.

Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

changemod wrote:
Seems a bit wonky in relevance to chapters getting doubled up bonuses during certain doctrines? Favours chapters who get their doubled assault benefit for the entire rest of the game as of turn 3, I mean

Which is offset by said bonus not kicking in until turn 3. A bonus that's active immediately is, ceteris paribus, better than one you have to wait for.

Only if you get really good effect from that alpha strike.

I wonder if Space Wolfs are going to have ~2 weeks where they benefit from not having these changes or they worked it out before that PA book went to the printers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Shame the players had to be Betatesters once again.

Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.

But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.

Like i said in another thread. I am happy and surprised GW managed to not overcompensate or hit the symptome. Otoh it is annoying that they lacked the playtesting respectively lacked the will to listen to their playtesters, which pointed this out to them.
Like, why even have playtesters for balance when you anyways just are going to ignore them?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

well then GW should have writen their rules and given them a point costs that makes the unit worth using. Centurions only started to exist in 8th ed, because of the stratagem. RG didn't seem to be the ones dominating everything that lives and breaths, so it is not even that they somehow broke the game, like lets say the chaplain dreads and intercessor combo.

GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.

Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.

Voss wrote:
I wonder if Space Wolfs are going to have ~2 weeks where they benefit from not having these changes or they worked it out before that PA book went to the printers.

This is something I am curious about. Having a hefty day 1 FAQ to the contents, while entirely justifiable, just looks really bad.

Darsath wrote:

Voss wrote:
I wonder if Space Wolfs are going to have ~2 weeks where they benefit from not having these changes or they worked it out before that PA book went to the printers.

This is something I am curious about. Having a hefty day 1 FAQ to the contents, while entirely justifiable, just looks really bad.

also it would again be Space wolves.
Their dex also got a day one FAQ, remember?

Voss wrote:
I wonder if Space Wolfs are going to have ~2 weeks where they benefit from not having these changes or they worked it out before that PA book went to the printers.

The book probably went to the printer long before these changes were decided on. The only thing that would save Wolves from a big day one FAQ (which would be 2-for-2) would be in they had something different than Doctrines like GK do.

Karol wrote:
As long as marines are still top armies it is going to be okey. I hope we ain't going back to tau and eldar flyers winning stuff left and right.

I wonder what rebalance are there going to be to chapters that have rule linked to being in devastator doctrin. You can't get back to enter them, so tactical doctrin marines seem to be winners of this change.

Lol. So either you are marine player and just want the auto win button for yourself or you don't care about game balance at all and want it to be bad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Seems a bit wonky in relevance to chapters getting doubled up bonuses during certain doctrines? Favours chapters who get their doubled assault benefit for the entire rest of the game as of turn 3, I mean

Well seeing if game isn't decided by turn 4 something has gone odd...

Assault marines gets turn 3 and maybe 4 if needed. 2 turns.
Devastator gets turn 1. 1 turn
Tactical can do 2 and 3. 2 turns.

Pretty identical. Devastators only get 1 turn but then again that's the most crucial turn. Assault gets technically more turns but also least important turns. Turns 5-7 are just mobbing up stuff.

It's the tactical that is biggest winner here getting 2nd and 3rd most important turns.

About fething time.

Hey good news sm players! Black makes an excellent base coat, so it'll be easy to repaint all those Iron Hands and Raven Guard armies back to what they were before you jumped on that bandwagon !

tneva82 785881 10727572 wrote:
Lol. So either you are marine player and just want the auto win button for yourself or you don't care about game balance at all and want it to be bad.

.

Is this mystical balance also called let eldar flyers and tau lists win stuff again ? And I don't play marines, I play Grey Knights. Still it does not change the fact that GW designed and tested those armies with the ability to stay in doctrins in mind. You think the changes come with them testing each one ?

Or how about the up encoming SW rules, you think they were tested with the changes in mind. their PA stuff may require a day one FAQ just because of the changes.

Heck GW may get stupid ideas and decide that GK should not be able to switch their version of doctrins.

Karol does bring up a point that Space Marines going forward are going to be played quite differently from how they were intended to be played (even on casual tables) and different from how they were designed (Keeping in a doctrine for a couple turns, switching once you move in).

Darsath wrote:
Karol does bring up a point that Space Marines going forward are going to be played quite differently from how they were intended to be played (even on casual tables) and different from how they were designed (Keeping in a doctrine for a couple turns, switching once you move in).

And how long were you supposed to keep it? 2 turns? 3? If you stay in dev doctrine to t3 and only switch to tac on t4 with "moving in" that's game over already.

You need to factor in GW has made 8th ed so lethal there isn't multiple important turn. Even 2 turns on dev doctrine is already deciding.

If GW wanted them to stay for a while before moving forward reduce overall lethality so the armies aren't so wrecked by turn 3!

According to the document on intentions, they were intended to cycle through the doctrines in 3-4 turns.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
About fething time.

Hey good news sm players! Black makes an excellent base coat, so it'll be easy to repaint all those Iron Hands and Raven Guard armies back to what they were before you jumped on that bandwagon !

This is one of the more amusing things to see play out in real time, seeing some locals posting about how they were "hArDcOrE rAvEn gUaRd pLaYeRs"(who never expressed any interest until they saw the nonsense about centurions getting dropped in) whinge about this change and their centurions that they totally had all along(spoiler: they just bought them to do this).

And then there's the same thing happening with Iron Hands too. It's not often you get to see netlisting blow up in someone's face in real time.

tneva82 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Karol does bring up a point that Space Marines going forward are going to be played quite differently from how they were intended to be played (even on casual tables) and different from how they were designed (Keeping in a doctrine for a couple turns, switching once you move in).

And how long were you supposed to keep it? 2 turns? 3? If you stay in dev doctrine to t3 and only switch to tac on t4 with "moving in" that's game over already.

You need to factor in GW has made 8th ed so lethal there isn't multiple important turn. Even 2 turns on dev doctrine is already deciding.

If GW wanted them to stay for a while before moving forward reduce overall lethality so the armies aren't so wrecked by turn 3!

The idea at its core was a bad idea. The supplements were made around that core, and they changed it after they attached their design to it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

Yes, Inquisitor. This one right here.

Darsath wrote:
Karol does bring up a point that Space Marines going forward are going to be played quite differently from how they were intended to be played (even on casual tables) and different from how they were designed (Keeping in a doctrine for a couple turns, switching once you move in).

Er, the opposite actually. This is forcing them to be played as intended because people weren't doing that. Because there was a great big exploit in the power of the codex if you built to use a single doctrine rather than trying build an army to use all three.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
About fething time.

Hey good news sm players! Black makes an excellent base coat, so it'll be easy to repaint all those Iron Hands and Raven Guard armies back to what they were before you jumped on that bandwagon !

This is one of the more amusing things to see play out in real time, seeing some locals posting about how they were "hArDcOrE rAvEn gUaRd pLaYeRs"(who never expressed any interest until they saw the nonsense about centurions getting dropped in) whinge about this change and their centurions that they totally had all along(spoiler: they just bought them to do this).

And then there's the same thing happening with Iron Hands too. It's not often you get to see netlisting blow up in someone's face in real time.

The good news for me is that my original plan for my Fists is back on the menu. Never wanted to go with all stalker bolt rifle artillery.

As a Dark Angels player I'm miffed that I barely had time to play my army with the broken-as-feth rules.

If I take away my bias though, this is absolutely fair, and probably the best way to go about it. If you're going to have doctrines, you shouldn't be able to linger. That makes sense.

Brings it more in line with other army-wide systems like Miracle Dice. Random but fair. Now doctrines are powerful, but temporary.

I didn't like feeling guilty about SM being OP, hopefully this generates a little more goodwill in the community for that faction's players

Karol wrote:
Is this mystical balance also called let eldar flyers and tau lists win stuff again ?

They shouldn't be allowed to win... because ?

Simple. Karol doesn't play them. Ergo they are never ever EVER supposed to win any game whatsoever

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

 AduroT wrote:

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

I think that's their point; re-roll failed is less powerful. 2CP to get re-roll all is a no-brainer and encourages static, deathstar gameplay.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
As a Dark Angels player I'm miffed that I barely had time to play my army with the broken-as-feth rules.

If I take away my bias though, this is absolutely fair, and probably the best way to go about it. If you're going to have doctrines, you shouldn't be able to linger. That makes sense.

Brings it more in line with other army-wide systems like Miracle Dice. Random but fair. Now doctrines are powerful, but temporary.

I didn't like feeling guilty about SM being OP, hopefully this generates a little more goodwill in the community for that faction's players

Agreed, I got to use the broken rules, once and it was a massacre, I simply gave every Intercessor Stalker Bolt Rifles, and stayed in the Devastator doctrine the entire game, I simply annihilated everything from 36-48 inches away, game was decided in Turn 2. Now having to move through the doctrines, I have to consider the Tactical Doctrine (Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, and Hellblasters). Assault Doctrine (Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing). This is a good change, I can now bring all three wings and compete and not have to be a Tau gunline