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I like those changes, but reinforces my opinion that I will wait for a stabilization of 40k before I bother playing my Blood Angels again. While it stinks having to buy the Codex and Psychic Awakening books for those who are more active, I must say that it is kind of a benefit to being one of the "special snowflake" Chapters that will get my full Codex after all these rules and point changes have been hammered out a bit more.
Shoot, maybe in a few months I will revisit 40k again.
That's what he's saying. He's gonna wait until their codex does get updated.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Murrax9 wrote: So as I predicted, Imperial Fists will probably become the best Marine faction now. Ultramarines seem pretty good now too. To me this seems like a really good fix.
Best Marine faction now how? They lost part of the only thing that made them good.
Tactical Doctrine Chapters lost basically nothing, Assault Doctrine Chapters kept the same.
IH getting a big hit doesn't make them worse than IF. They have a lot of nice stratagems and synergies. IF got a bunch of situational, thematic garbage.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
It's pretty easy for a new player to accidentally break the game, so Cruddace is just making excuses for his laziness
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
It's pretty easy for a new player to accidentally break the game, so Cruddace is just making excuses for his laziness
I don't think it's laziness, I just think it's how they mentally approach the game coloring their perception on how it "should" work and not writing rules to ensure it does work that way.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
It's pretty easy for a new player to accidentally break the game, so Cruddace is just making excuses for his laziness
I don't think it's laziness, I just think it's how they mentally approach the game coloring their perception on how it "should" work and not writing rules to ensure it does work that way.
> Endorses tournament scene.
> Tournament scene is competent
> Writes sloppy abusable ruleset.
>ExpectsPlayers not to accidentally or willingly abuse ruleset.
I mean yeah sure that is a adequate expectation....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 18:45:08
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
It's pretty easy for a new player to accidentally break the game, so Cruddace is just making excuses for his laziness
I don't think it's laziness, I just think it's how they mentally approach the game coloring their perception on how it "should" work and not writing rules to ensure it does work that way.
> Endorses tournament scene.
> Tournament scene is competent
> Writes sloppy abusable ruleset.
>ExpectsPlayers not to accidentally or willingly abuse ruleset.
I mean yeah sure that is a adequate expectation....
I think it's less "expects" and more "assumes". I don't think they consciously think about it and that's the problem.
So, whats interesting about this is it feels like/reads like this FAQ was pushed out at the behest of the Adepticon people.
As opposed to the Las Vegas folks who were talking the various factions up and involved in the playtesting at the beginning of the edition.
Is this a behind the scene shift in which group GW is backing or which group is dictating the rules feedback to GW, or just GW blundering along with the blessing of various tournament organizer factions?
Or just the tournament groups trying to teach GW how to write rules?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 19:25:47
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
Yeah, but HBMC still hit the nail on the head. I am completely agreed with him--they should NOT be this bad, this naive, with as much experience as they have.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
Yeah, but HBMC still hit the nail on the head. I am completely agreed with him--they should NOT be this bad, this naive, with as much experience as they have.
Collectively the company has a lot of experiance, but let's be honest: how many devs do we know actually have a wealth of experiance? Cruddace and ???? for 40k? Kelly is a lore writer for AoS, Ward is gone, and I don't know what Gav Thorpe is doing these days. They've also added a number of people to the team recently to make up for the split between games.
I'm not saying there isn't experience there that shouldn't know better, but most of the team isn't as seasoned as the claim that "Games Workshop" is.
It feels like Cruddace writes with more of the casual narrative player in mind, and maybe that's the problem. I mean he is the same person who was lead writer for the Leafblower Guard army during 5th.
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
Yeah, but HBMC still hit the nail on the head. I am completely agreed with him--they should NOT be this bad, this naive, with as much experience as they have.
This assumes they are bad though.
If they weren't changing things around they would be selling less models as tournament try hards would have less incentive to buy new armies and models all the time.
Lots of whining
Predictions space marines still win adepticon and iron hands is still great.
These were fairly light changes overall. The doctrine changes themselves aren’t going to be a huge swing in power as the whining on this thread indicates... don’t worry your army is still better than most. You still have your crutch.
"we don't like how you build and play you'r space marine armies and you should build them as a set combined arms force with a focus on close combat and now were gonna try and force you to do it."
Not gonna change my army build one bit. it is my army with model i want to play with a specific lore/theme. my version of combined arms is not GWs version. hey here is a better idea-you screwed up just remove doctrine entirely and reset it back the way it was.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.
Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.
Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.
I always find it a little weird when someone claims that everybody at least dislikes the Centurion models when there's such a dedicated (if small) cadre of players that love that model and jump in to defend them at every opportunity. It's happened dozens of times in dozens of threads over the last couple of years, I don't know how anyone on the forum could have missed it altogether.
Some of us like those things. Some of us even use them regularly outside of RG and WS lists. Some of us even go so far as to sincerely hope they get the Primaris keyword eventually so we can keep using them for another 20 years. Hell, my Centurion Devastators were the very first thing I bought when I got back into the game in 8th, I'll be genuinely sad when I can't use them anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 19:39:39
"we don't like how you build and play you'r space marine armies and you should build them as a set combined arms force with a focus on close combat and now were gonna try and force you to do it."
Not gonna change my army build one bit. it is my army with model i want to play with a specific lore/theme. my version of combined arms is not GWs version. hey here is a better idea-you screwed up just remove doctrine entirely and reset it back the way it was.
Feel free to not change. But at least then you don't have as broken good force as befoe and have to play on more level playing field
Now there's actually choice. Spam same thing and get less bonuses or more variety and get bonuses. Before it was easy spam spam spam
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 19:40:29
GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.
Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.
Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.
I always find it a little weird when someone claims that everybody at least dislikes the Centurion models when there's such a dedicated (if small) cadre of players that love that model and jump in to defend them at every opportunity. It's happened dozens of times in dozens of threads over the last couple of years, I don't know how anyone on the forum could have missed it altogether.
Some of us like those things. Some of us even use them regularly outside of RG and WS lists. Some of us even go so far as to sincerely hope they get the Primaris keyword eventually so we can keep using them for another 20 years. Hell, my Centurion Devastators were the very first thing I bought when I got back into the game in 8th, I'll be genuinely sad when I can't use them anymore.
Well, it will be a really small community because I have never seen a single person backing the centurions a single time in my entire life.
But I do trust you, even if this community is clearly wrong !
Oh I'm totally in love the idea that the pack of Marine cards sitting a foot away from me has invalid rules printed inside it. It's fething wonderful.
But it's GW. They're terrible at writing rules. They shouldn't be - you'd think a group that's been at it this long would have some semblance of what they needed to do to avoid things like this - but that's the wa they are.
Based on Cruddace's comment it feels that part of the problem is that they have too much faith in the player base not abusing the heck out of things for maximum benefit and instead playing in a more fluffy manner.
Yeah, but HBMC still hit the nail on the head. I am completely agreed with him--they should NOT be this bad, this naive, with as much experience as they have.
This assumes they are bad though.
If they weren't changing things around they would be selling less models as tournament try hards would have less incentive to buy new armies and models all the time.
People keep saying that, but I don't see it. Players don't just stop buying models, they enjoy expanding their armies and starting new ones. Players DO get sick of terrible balance and quit the game, that's what makes them stop buying new models. What are the tourney tryhards going to do if the game is better balanced anyways? They will still be chasing the meta and buying new armies, it isn't like they have anywhere else to go.
We also have countless examples of new model releases that have sucked on release.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 20:02:47
When they came put I liked them in Imperial Fists and Black Templar colors, but I never seem to be able to play Marines and be happy so it's not like I went all in on them.
GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.
Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.
Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.
I always find it a little weird when someone claims that everybody at least dislikes the Centurion models when there's such a dedicated (if small) cadre of players that love that model and jump in to defend them at every opportunity. It's happened dozens of times in dozens of threads over the last couple of years, I don't know how anyone on the forum could have missed it altogether.
Some of us like those things. Some of us even use them regularly outside of RG and WS lists. Some of us even go so far as to sincerely hope they get the Primaris keyword eventually so we can keep using them for another 20 years. Hell, my Centurion Devastators were the very first thing I bought when I got back into the game in 8th, I'll be genuinely sad when I can't use them anymore.
Well, it will be a really small community because I have never seen a single person backing the centurions a single time in my entire life.
But I do trust you, even if this community is clearly wrong !
I kinda like the Centurion models. I don't even mind the space marine inside a space marine meme to the point I would double down on it and have a Centurion Pink Horror a Space Marine Blue Horror upon its destruction. I don't have any since they are both kinda a lot of money and not Primaris. If I could get a good deal for some and they were to become Primaris, I could see me adding them to my army too.
GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.
Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.
Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.
I always find it a little weird when someone claims that everybody at least dislikes the Centurion models when there's such a dedicated (if small) cadre of players that love that model and jump in to defend them at every opportunity. It's happened dozens of times in dozens of threads over the last couple of years, I don't know how anyone on the forum could have missed it altogether.
Some of us like those things. Some of us even use them regularly outside of RG and WS lists. Some of us even go so far as to sincerely hope they get the Primaris keyword eventually so we can keep using them for another 20 years. Hell, my Centurion Devastators were the very first thing I bought when I got back into the game in 8th, I'll be genuinely sad when I can't use them anymore.
Well, it will be a really small community because I have never seen a single person backing the centurions a single time in my entire life.
But I do trust you, even if this community is clearly wrong !
That statement is self-evidently false, since you are literally responding to someone defending the aesthetics of Centurions. You've seen it at least once in your life.
And, as always, there's no right or wrong answer to whether a thing is aesthetically pleasing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/27 20:45:24
GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.
Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.
Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.
I always find it a little weird when someone claims that everybody at least dislikes the Centurion models when there's such a dedicated (if small) cadre of players that love that model and jump in to defend them at every opportunity. It's happened dozens of times in dozens of threads over the last couple of years, I don't know how anyone on the forum could have missed it altogether.
Some of us like those things. Some of us even use them regularly outside of RG and WS lists. Some of us even go so far as to sincerely hope they get the Primaris keyword eventually so we can keep using them for another 20 years. Hell, my Centurion Devastators were the very first thing I bought when I got back into the game in 8th, I'll be genuinely sad when I can't use them anymore.
Well, it will be a really small community because I have never seen a single person backing the centurions a single time in my entire life. But I do trust you, even if this community is clearly wrong !
I kinda like the Centurion models. I don't even mind the space marine inside a space marine meme to the point I would double down on it and have a Centurion Pink Horror a Space Marine Blue Horror upon its destruction. I don't have any since they are both kinda a lot of money and not Primaris. If I could get a good deal for some and they were to become Primaris, I could see me adding them to my army too.
I kinda like the centurions, especialy with the total recall style drills lol They are the 40k right kind of silly... Like them more so than say aggressors... I really like old box dreads too. And to highlight, I dont play marines and I generally don't like the power armour aesthetic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/27 20:42:51
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Personally, I've always been in the dislike camp rather than the revilers. The biggest fault Centurions have visually is that they always felt like a retread of Terminators, except more so. Stormbolter + power fist was too pitiful in the new world of gods and monsters that 40k had become, so C-boys got hurricane bolters and massive power-drills.
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