Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Billagio wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it

Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.

Edit: He's got a painboy too.

I mean, theyre boyz so shoot them? Id rather have 300 points of boyz than 300 points of Ghaz. Its pretty clear youre not going to change your mind and are stuck in your ways (despite clearly having never played orks). Lets just wait and see what major tournament lists/results churn out in a few months (assuming no changes to him)

OK so that's a punt then.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You sure he 'beats Guilliman' easily'?

My maths says different.

6 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .5 * 4 = 7.8

Spend 3CP if you don't manage to do it one go. Ghaz needs 3 wounds to get through and scores 6 of them on average. If RG saves only half - he dies.

"Spend 3 CP if you don't manage to do it in one go"? Explain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7EOwsu-dU

Ghaz takes, at 6 attacks a turn that wound on 2s...

Two combat phases to kill an Ark. Three, if the Necron pops a strat.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ghaz takes, at 6 attacks a turn that wound on 2s...

Two combat phases to kill an Ark. Three, if the Necron pops a strat.

It won't be shooting though.

Roberts84 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ghaz takes, at 6 attacks a turn that wound on 2s...

Two combat phases to kill an Ark. Three, if the Necron pops a strat.

It won't be shooting though.

It has fly?
So yes it will.

the 4 damage per phase is reasonably easy to handle, no you can't auto delete ghaz in one turn but... thats a good thing

BrianDavion wrote:
the 4 damage per phase is reasonably easy to handle, no you can't auto delete ghaz in one turn but... thats a good thing

aye
Allbeit you could've achieved a similiar effect with half damage .

Overall at 9 wounds he'd be head and shoulder better.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.

He can teleport.

Ok, let's put it this way:

Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?

Less than 50% chance to make that charge. You better 300 pts on that?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.

He can teleport.

Ok, let's put it this way:

Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?

Less than 50% chance to make that charge. You better 300 pts on that?

Don't Tell him that alpha Legion berzerkers do that better then him allready, else he has an existential crisis.

One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields
They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals
They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds.
He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns.
The next fight phase he kills another two on average.
The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.

Shooting at him? Wrong! The rest of the army, including world-beating units of ORK BOYZ, are rolling up to you unchecked and will destroy your whole army.

Knowing this, how about you ignore him and focus on the rest of the Ork army instead? Wrong again! Now GHAZ is hurtling towards you at supersonic speeds of 10.5" per turn, and will destroy your whole army.

Trying to tie him up with chaff? Somehow you managed to get it wrong AGAIN! With his 5 - 7 attacks he will wipe out whole units of 10+ models in one go (?). You walked right into his trap!

Falling back and finishing him off? Well done, you just ceded the whole board, cannot claim any objectives, and to be honest may as well just sweep your whole army onto the floor.

And I think you know that.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.

He can teleport.

Ok, let's put it this way:

Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?

Ghaz kills 4 fire warriors. I fall back, shoot him with a riptide, and then wait for him to charge my fire warriors/drones again, where I will happily kill him in overwatch, having lost maaaaaybe 80pts to his 285?

This is like, super not difficult my dude.

I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason as to why Ghaz isn't a waste of points? People are pointing out that his damage output isn't particularly staggering and your response is "aha - but he is amazingly durable, for the points!!!11one" then, when people point out that he's not particularly durable you go back to claiming that his damage output is incredible (when backed up by approximately 300-500 points of other units).

You obviously don't understand Ghaz's rules, or Ork rules in general. Your repeated rule mistakes ('he can use Painboy', 'Fight twice', 'Advance and charge' etc) prove this. You have no real idea how good (or bad) Ghaz is because I dare say you don't really understand what being a [MONSTER] means in the context of the Ork ruleset.

I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.

40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.

But seriously, people. Get a grip.

Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.

Roberts84 wrote:
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Over enough rolls the variance is low. Take a course in stats and probability and you'll see this.

Also, if it's all luck why are some players consistently playing at the top tables while others never win a game?

There are stats to suggest that "good" 40k players beat "less competitive" 40k players regularly though? Like to a huge degree as well, not some close run thing, like the top 50 at LVO had a 80+% win rate against those who weren't also in the top 50.

Either way it's a bit of a random complaint given you made this topic presumably to discuss Ghaz and why he's OP.

I agree this topic should be closed, create it again in a few months if you're proven right, otherwise keep your head down and hope people have forgotten this thread the next time you post.

Oh a new character, must be OP I guess because he has an ability new to 40k.

Hardly.
It’s a 300 point handicap that could be spent better elsewhere.
He’s slow and doesn’t really add a great deal.

If he’s walking then even just wounding him in the shooting phase won’t be an issue as he’s slow.
People panic far too quickly when seeing something new.

Also, the whole “what about the rest of the army” is kind of moot.
This statement implies you have to shoot your entire army at him to cause 4 wounds, which isn’t close to true.
He’s also a large chunk of that army too.

I’d rather face Ghaz than his points in Boyz.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Over enough rolls the variance is low. Take a course in stats and probability and you'll see this.

Also, if it's all luck why are some players consistently playing at the top tables while others never win a game?

You do you, 5th. But as an ex-WOW player yourself, you should know 40K doesn't even begin to approximate the difficulty of ranked Arena competition. And I think you do know that.

Roberts84 wrote:
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.

40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.

But seriously, people. Get a grip.

Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.

I wonder if you would have said the same thing if everyone in the thread just agreed with you

Humans will often go to extreme lengths to avoid admitting they were wrong.

Most sports have random elements in them, whether a coin toss or pitch conditions. I don’t know why you’re trying to discredit randomness; adaptability and contingency planning are skills invoked by having a degree of randomness.

Also, it’s detached from Ghazghkull’s wound cap mechanic. Taking 0-4 wounds per phase is a reduction of randomness compared to taking 0-12 wounds per phase as the outcomes are more predictable.

I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.

Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth

Yazima wrote:
I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.

Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth

Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.

In answer to the “who can solo Ghaz??” I give you a whole bunch of GK characters who can conceivably kill him by themselves in A SINGLE TURN, for 150-225ish points. Grandmaster dreadknights have the best chance because they hit harder and have more guns, at the top of that price range. Blob of 10 interceptors or 300 pts of paladins work too
Psychic Phase: cast “Inner Fire” for an easy 4 wounds.
Shooting phase: shoot super-charged psycannon/psilencer for 4 more, re-roll wounds against monsters strat
Fight phase: daemonhammers pick up the last 4 wounds

Obviously this is idealized in terms of being in range/not screened and a lot of CP expenditure, but then again I’d have 2k of options for each phase, not 200 covering all three.

But even if it takes 3 turns to kill him, so what? Tau and Guard have been dealing with this problem as long as they have existed.

also as for soloing Ghaz... who cares?

he's 300 points, for 300 points I can take a Librarian and a unit of hellblasters

Roberts84 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.

Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.

It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.

Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.

You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.

lol you're a genius!

Tell me; how do you know exactly how many resources that is? Crystal ball?

Math and statistics. Of course with dice rolling nothing is water-tight but you can reasonably esitmate how much you'll need. Then take about 20% extra to cover for bad rolls and you can efficiently dispose of him while wasting only a minimum of resources. I'm still going to get him sooner or later though, model looks just too Gorkdamn good to leave it sitting on the shelf. But he's very far from OP. Only real niche he has is if someone mispositions a Knight or somesuch and Ghazzy kan deepstrike in, pray to Gork he makes the charge and then krump it. Then again, an Evil Sunz Big Boss with Da Killa Klaw and Brutal but Kunnin' has the same damage output for a third of Ghazzy's price and has a 72% chance to make the charge instead of Ghazzy's ~50%. I think he'll be fine in a casual game though, especially if you go up against Guard or Tau who don't have a lot of ways to deal significant damage to Ghazzy outside of the shooting phase.

Pyroalchi wrote:
One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields
They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals
They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds.
He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns.
The next fight phase he kills another two on average.
The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.

7 attacks S12 - wounds on 2s. You forgot he is Goff as well.

7 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .833 = 5 to 6 bullgryns dead. LD8, so a small chance to lose one. Next turn he wipes them.

BrianDavion wrote:
the 4 damage per phase is reasonably easy to handle, no you can't auto delete ghaz in one turn but... thats a good thing

Exactly this keeps the Kid who just bough his expensive ghazzy model from being picked up turn 1.
That said...... IF i'm tau bring the big guy.... He's dead on turn three for all septs except Farsight Enclaves. Farsight gets him on two possibly.

As Deathwing... I dont care your going down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pyroalchi wrote:
One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields
They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals
They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds.
He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns.
The next fight phase he kills another two on average.
The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.

7 attacks S12 - wounds on 2s. You forgot he is Goff as well.

7 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .833 = 5 to 6 bullgryns dead. LD8, so a small chance to lose one. Next turn he wipes them.

That's at 1-3 wounds, not at 4.

And he only gets the Goff bonus in a pure Goff detachment. Do you really want to gimp an entire detachment just so Ghaz hits a little harder?

Edit: Also, they have a 4+ invuln.

So it's...

6 attacks
6 hits (35/36 is close enough to 1 that I'll call it 6)
5 wounds
2.5 unsaved
2-3 dead Bullgryns.

Ghaz, as I see it, runs two ways.

Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.