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 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!

I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!

I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.

Bolter porn depictions where a marine impossibly solos 1000 orks aside, marines have never been depicted as out of the reach of a skilled human with a power weapon. Advantaged, certainly, but not undefeatable.

That said, I’m more concerned with the Custodian acting like an inquisitor or commissar. Custodes are imperial truth adherents with a large amount of intelligence and knowledge needed for their role, and despite having their own flaws and biases, shouldn’t be buying into the standard issue “guilt by vague superficial association” mindset of other imperial organisations.

changemod wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!

I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.

Bolter porn depictions where a marine impossibly solos 1000 orks aside, marines have never been depicted as out of the reach of a skilled human with a power weapon. Advantaged, certainly, but not undefeatable.

That said, I’m more concerned with the Custodian acting like an inquisitor or commissar. Custodes are imperial truth adherents with a large amount of intelligence and knowledge needed for their role, and despite having their own flaws and biases, shouldn’t be buying into the standard issue “guilt by vague superficial association” mindset of other imperial organisations.

One of the rationalizations I've seen for the Custodian's reaction has been that the Custodes hate the Astartes after the Heresy and blame the Astartes for the current state of the Imperium. I personally don't recall reading that anywhere, but I also can't say that I've read every piece of fluff that exists. I'm of the opinion that the Custode went from 0-PURGE! way faster than was reasonable given the situation, especially as they're supposed to be the most enlightened scholars in the Imperium with full knowledge of the Heresy itself.

Quick copy & paste from Twitter (Andy Clark wrote Consequences):

David Wilson @AoZain
Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?

Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018
Replying to @AoZain
1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent...
2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement.
3) hope that’s helpful

Oh its Andy Clark - I really enjoy his work

I'm just glad that no one here even suspects treachery on behalf of the Inquisition.

That would just be unthinkable, Emperor know's what would happen if someone with the ultimate sanction ever fell to chaos. Even an inquisitorial seal falling into the hands of the Enemy could be disastrous. Just as well the High Lords pick in whom to place their trust so wireless.

I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.

But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?

A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.

As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.

But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.

changemod wrote:
I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.

But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?

Hmm , considering the "traitors" seemed to be primaris, maybee just a salespitch?
But even then one could've easily acomplished that without custodes?

Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.

However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?

changemod wrote:
I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.

But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?

The Custodes never left Terra en mass before, nor was the Imperium is as dire straights as it is now.

Plus he was justified, having been told by the Inquisition that half of the chapter had potentially turned, he merely placed the Brazen Drakes under arrest and killed the marine that demanded to be allowed to reinforce the 'loyal' Drakes on the planet.
Space marines have proved time and time again that they will not accept any censure or oversight from elsewhere in the Imperium and consider themselves a law unto themselves - even here the Drakes immediately tried to take control of the fleet! The story even mentions that this is split second decision making, as transhuman warrior reflexes allow no time for measured consideration.

And how do you come back after stealing a fleet and killing Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Navy in order to clear your own name!?

As for the point of the story, it's introducing us to the new role the Custodes have had forced upon them - which will lead them into this story. We're not told of the chapter in "the Burdan of Brotherhood" - so if Bile has lost his previous support to the Death Guard, and then signs up with the Brazen Drakes and perhaps promises to cure the psychic plague that's umm...plaguing them, then we now know why the Custodes are also hot on his trail.

Deathguard chasing Bile, Custodes chasing the Drakes - with alternatively this story being more something to develop the Drakes as much as the Custodes.

[edit]Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

I think you mean Traitor Primaris are inevitable.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Well, yes, by definition...

 Tastyfish wrote:

changemod wrote:
I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.

But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?

The Custodes never left Terra en mass before, nor was the Imperium is as dire straights as it is now.

Plus he was justified, having been told by the Inquisition that half of the chapter had potentially turned, he merely placed the Brazen Drakes under arrest and killed the marine that demanded to be allowed to reinforce the 'loyal' Drakes on the planet.
Space marines have proved time and time again that they will not accept any censure or oversight from elsewhere in the Imperium and consider themselves a law unto themselves - even here the Drakes immediately tried to take control of the fleet! The story even mentions that this is split second decision making, as transhuman warrior reflexes allow no time for measured consideration.

And how do you come back after stealing a fleet and killing Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Navy in order to clear your own name!?

As for the point of the story, it's introducing us to the new role the Custodes have had forced upon them - which will lead them into this story. We're not told of the chapter in "the Burdan of Brotherhood" - so if Bile has lost his previous support to the Death Guard, and then signs up with the Brazen Drakes and perhaps promises to cure the psychic plague that's umm...plaguing them, then we now know why the Custodes are also hot on his trail.

Deathguard chasing Bile, Custodes chasing the Drakes - with alternatively this story being more something to develop the Drakes as much as the Custodes.

[edit]Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.

For what it’s worth, no he doesn’t shoot the captan who’s first instinct was to investigate personally. He shoots an impulsive marine who points out it’s absurd to consider them traitors when they have no connection to the traitors other than gulliman-assigned heraldry.

Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.

I had to go back and reread The Burden of Brotherhood, but did you notice that along with not naming the chapter, they characters were all referred to by first name? Could it be that story was the Brazen Drakes under the leadership of Chapter Master Corian Kaslyn?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait, are those, like , supposed traitor primaris?

The world of Khassedur had been their destination through long months of toil and trial, across blazing battlefields and amidst the teeth of ferocious warp storms. Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.

Nope, not traitor primaris. The chapter on the planet that turned traitor was old type marines, and the 'two companies' on the ship were Primaris slated to join the chapter.
They objected to 'guilt by association' with people they'd never even met, so the Custodes over-reacted and the Sisters followed along.

It was pure blue on blue for the sake of melodrama.

Summed up like that, it makes the story even worse.

But it was bad to being with, so there's really no saving it.

It seems to exist only to show how bad ass Custodes and Sisters of Silence are - but...we already knew that?

I'm sure that nobody ever regretted letting supposedly loyal Astartes land on a planet to aid in putting down traitor elements, right?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.

As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.

But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.

Primaris are just improved marines. Still marines. Not some supernatural flawless things. If anything custodians are created to be far more perfect than any marines were even intended. Marines are the mass produced cheap troops that were meant to be exterminated once their use was done same way as thunder warriors were.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.

However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?

You think that would stop them? They can just do what they did with chaos knights: put differently painted, edgy named miniatures on the website. You sell double the miniatures with only one kit. Put some rules for them in war of the spider and you're done. Probably they'll be identintic to the loyalist version, just with angels of death being replaced by death to the false emperor.... making them worse, so no one will try to use them competitivly outside of the edgy... okay edgier named eliminators to see if giving a sniper unit to chaos helped.

strigops wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Ugh traitor primaris will be the worst.

Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.

However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?

You think that would stop them? They can just do what they did with chaos knights: put differently painted, edgy named miniatures on the website. You sell double the miniatures with only one kit. Put some rules for them in war of the spider and you're done. Probably they'll be identintic to the loyalist version, just with angels of death being replaced by death to the false emperor.... making them worse, so no one will try to use them competitivly outside of the edgy... okay edgier named eliminators to see if giving a sniper unit to chaos helped.

I don't know about you, but i'd rather not see Chaos intercissors schooting twice with +1 to wound.
Or eliminators for that matter.

tneva82 wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.

As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.

But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.

Primaris are just improved marines. Still marines. Not some supernatural flawless things. If anything custodians are created to be far more perfect than any marines were even intended. Marines are the mass produced cheap troops that were meant to be exterminated once their use was done same way as thunder warriors were.

More than that: Primaris are what Marines should have been in the first place. I suppose one can argue about their implementation into existing lore, but that goes for pretty much every other release, depending on your perspective. The scale overhaul was long overdue and inevitable, and GW makes miniatures first and lore second.

pretty basic story. Seems clear that they're setting up the stage for renegade primaris, disillusioned by the senseless waste of imperial warfare.

Nobody within the machine of the imperium is a perfect, omniscient calculator. The custode found out they were carrying reinforcements to a legion that had turned traitor and acted quickly.

YOU know that primaris marines are supposedly not related to their brethren, but would HE know? probably not. Also, lol@ folks boo-hooing that a unit of intercessors can be killed by a dedicated close combat unit jumping them from like 10 feet away and a space marine captain with a power sword can't take on a SOS HQ and a custode shield captain at the same time.

Not sure what the issue is here - can people not stomach Marines dying.

Its an alright story and very 40k.

Marines should have surrendered - they didn't so they died.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not sure what the issue is here - can people not stomach Marines dying.

Its an alright story and very 40k.

Marines should have surrendered - they didn't so they died.

You're right - it was a fantastic story...




...but I suppose we'll hopefully soon learn what's going on down on the planet.

Has to be ridiculously over the top bad for it to even begin to justify a Custodes losing his mind though.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not sure what the issue is here - can people not stomach Marines dying.

Its an alright story and very 40k.

Marines should have surrendered - they didn't so they died.

You're right - it was a fantastic story...

...but I suppose we'll hopefully soon learn what's going on down on the planet.

Has to be ridiculously over the top bad for it to even begin to justify a Custodes losing his mind though.

"Sigh" Did I say it was a Fantastic Story????? - no I did not.

It was "alright" and no worse than more usual OTT Marine stories.... There was a fight, people died on both side

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!

I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.

Could be simple selective breeding, especially when you have the Pariah gene involved.

As for the story, I thought it was fine. Given the upheaval of Daemons attacking Terra directly and being restored to a more direct combatant arm of the Imperium (rather than just guarding the Throne and quietly taking out threats to the throne at a distance) a hard line Custodes with zero tolerance for heresy choosing to condemn a chapter for the acts of their brethren is no different from what many Inquisitors would do or have done. Remember the little spat between the Inquisition and Grey Knights vs the Space Wolves after Armageddon I?

Eh, except given how Primaris are being (or were) made, and being delivered for the first time ever, and given how Guilliman himself is doing this, and given how Custodes are sent out at his behest...

At the end of the day, whatever, it is just a bad story in a long line of bad stories that GW has put out.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
no different from what many Inquisitors would do or have done.

That’s the exact issue I and others have with it. It’s not that the custodian decides to execute 200 marines, but that he went about it like an inquisitor, especially in his opening lines of telling the marines they were filthy heretics unfit to look at or speak to any imperial citizen.

Custodians are meant to be an echo of the emperor’s original plans for the imperium, and whilst they can certainly be dogmatic, intolerant and flawed in various ways, with good writing they’d express those flaws with a very different flavour to an inquisitor or commissar.