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I recently acquired a copy of FFG’s reprint of the WEG SW RPG. The nostalgia hit me like a freight train; not so much nostalgia for the D6 system as for late 80s/early 90s SW fandom. In those days, the SW setting was gritty through-and-through. It was hard NOT to imagine all kinds of pulpy adventures.

The slick, lightsaber-obsessed prequels really cut against that grain. And the Disney sequels are aesthetically nonsensical. Both trilogies make the SW setting feel smaller and less inspiring. To me, Solo and The Mandalorian do the opposite.

Clone Wars my good dude.

Clone Wars.

See the Galaxy! Explore the Lore! Feel rejuvenated.

Seriously. Yes, there is a fair amount of light saber slinging, of course there is. But it’s so, so much more than that.

 Manchu wrote:
I recently acquired a copy of FFG’s reprint of the WEG SW RPG. The nostalgia hit me like a freight train; not so much nostalgia for the D6 system as for late 80s/early 90s SW fandom. In those days, the SW setting was gritty through-and-through. It was hard NOT to imagine all kinds of pulpy adventures.

The slick, lightsaber-obsessed prequels really cut against that grain. And the Disney sequels are aesthetically nonsensical. Both trilogies make the SW setting feel smaller and less inspiring. To me, Solo and The Mandalorian do the opposite.

Oh yeah, this a thousand times. See, as much as I’m enjoying TCW, it can’t fix what I think is a major error that they did with the Jedi. They ruined their mystic by turning them from what was said to be an order of secretive and magic warrior monks into what I can only describe as ‘the space FBI’. Nowhere is this better demonstrated by Annakin’s line in Attack Of The Clones; “Jedi business, go back to your drinks”. That right there to me utterly ruined their legendary status and made them so mundane. Like they’re just another branch of the government. I can now picture a Jedi going ‘you want my Jedi number?! Here’s my freaking Jedi number!” like they’re some old film noir gumshoe. Totally wrong direction to go in. And when I’m out of work today I’ll elaborate further.

Additional, fascinating perspective on that very irk is provided in Rebels.

Quite early on, if memory serves. Certainly the first season.

Won’t say what, as I don’t want to paraphrase, just let you see it for yourself. But yeah.

The TV stuff does seem to have a certain, I’d call it ‘fan level awareness’ of the movie plots.

Ep9 of Season 7 has another tie-in to rebels.

The holo jedi council. Deepa Billaba is shown. She was Caleb Dume's master.

She has a padawn next to her who is most likely Caleb as well.

It has been confirmed by Filoni that it is him.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Additional, fascinating perspective on that very irk is provided in Rebels.

Quite early on, if memory serves. Certainly the first season.

Won’t say what, as I don’t want to paraphrase, just let you see it for yourself. But yeah.

The TV stuff does seem to have a certain, I’d call it ‘fan level awareness’ of the movie plots.

I’m looking forward to seeing Rebels. It’ll be a while, cuz TCW, RotS and Solo are first but I hope to get there by the end of the weekend. Plus my brother is filling me in on what happens in Fallen Order.

Another issue, which is probably explained and I just don’t know it yet, is how tied up to the republic and it’s senate the Jedi actually are. I always felt like the Jedi should have seen themselves as above politics and governments. They defend all life and answer to The Force, not any government. And because of this, and the whole secretive order thing, they hide among places rather than having a big headquarters out in the open.

NnnnggghhhhhNnngnghhshvnsiNDOJVNSONJMKN

That’s me, right now, holding my tongue on Rebels related Spoilers.

The bit in mind isn’t massively long, but it’s such a beacon of ‘whoa.....I see!’ it left a serious impression.

I never got the impression from the OT that the Jedi were secretive or not involved with political issues. Obi-Wan describes them as knights, guardians of peace, participants in the Clone Wars. IMO the mistake was making them some sort of Buddhist monks.

TCW series has its ups and downs but it does yeomen’s work rehabilitating, where possible, the SW setting as diminished by the PT.

There’s sadly no saving TPM. It’s simply too far gone.

But, bracketing TCW with 2 and 3 for me builds a pretty satisfying story.

Yes at least it makes the characters into, ya know, characters.

But without making them overly distinct takes.

I mean, that’s no mean feat, narratively.

Yes, TCW does such a better job with Anakin. I’d love for anyone to look me square in the eye and deny that.

Yet.....despite the extra depth it provides. It doesn’t leave ROTS’ Anakin looking like a completely different character.

Seriously nothing but respect, applause and love for all those involved in TCW. You knocked it far, far out of the park.

I used a line a few posts ago which felt kinda throwaway at the time, but now I feel may ‘the thing’

The TV shows seem more in tune with the fandom. And as per my OP I’ve enjoyed all the cinema output. But this....just works better.

So much better.

Another think that always kinda irked me what just the idea in star wars that, inherantly, the light side is good dark side is bad.
When Rebels brought in both Ahsoka and Maul as charaters that abandoned their respective orders and move more to the center, i was hoping they would go with this idea that neither is truly good. but not, maul wwas bad, ahsoka good.
its frusterating. there can be interesting stories told, but it always seemed abandoned for the same good vs evil narrative

My takeaway of the Maul and Ahsoka dynamic is twofold.

1. Religious Indoctrination.

Neither can properly conceive of Not Being Just, because the dogma is all they know.

2. The Force Is Binary

As in, the potential of The Force is near unlimited. The Force is ineffable. Any kind of competence requires some form of discipline.

Either ways, it all adds to the tragedy as I see it. Mere mortals determined that some ineffable, erm. Force, has an opinion. That it *must* be controlled and channeled only One Way.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
NnnnggghhhhhNnngnghhshvnsiNDOJVNSONJMKN

That’s me, right now, holding my tongue on Rebels related Spoilers.

The bit in mind isn’t massively long, but it’s such a beacon of ‘whoa.....I see!’ it left a serious impression.

You're going to make me re-watch Rebels now, aren't you?

Not that I'm complaining (although I would like to put some effort into The Expanse...), I really enjoyed it first time around and I have a feeling that I'll like it even more now that I don't have to get past the stylistic differences between Rebels and TCW.

Well, if I’m making you do that? You’re making me....



But, given you’ve seemingly enjoyed it already, I’ll PM you with the bit I’m getting at.

Seems like the Force itself does not have a dark or light side (I think TCW makes some mistakes here); those are just approaches to it. And the dark side approach is inherently bad.

 Chillreaper wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
NnnnggghhhhhNnngnghhshvnsiNDOJVNSONJMKN

That’s me, right now, holding my tongue on Rebels related Spoilers.

The bit in mind isn’t massively long, but it’s such a beacon of ‘whoa.....I see!’ it left a serious impression.

You're going to make me re-watch Rebels now, aren't you?

Not that I'm complaining (although I would like to put some effort into The Expanse...), I really enjoyed it first time around and I have a feeling that I'll like it even more now that I don't have to get past the stylistic differences between Rebels and TCW.

Dude, as much as i love Star Wars watch the expanse, seriously, its SOOOO good

 Manchu wrote:
I never got the impression from the OT that the Jedi were secretive or not involved with political issues. Obi-Wan describes them as knights, guardians of peace, participants in the Clone Wars. IMO the mistake was making them some sort of Buddhist monks.

TCW series has its ups and downs but it does yeomen’s work rehabilitating, where possible, the SW setting as diminished by the PT.

Maybe I didn’t explain it so well. I was wondering how could it be that somebody like Solo could dismiss the force as make believe if the Jedi were once so prominent, even in his own lifetime. And the only explanation I can think of would be for the Jedi to have been semi-mythical even during the time of the republic. And sure, they can be guardians of the peace and take part in wars, but in a less official way. More underground.

I’m finding it hard to explain...it makes sense in my head but I’m having trouble typing it out.

Well, on that count?

We now know, canonically, Han is from Correlia.

If memory serves, that’s a Core World. And doesn’t feature at all in TCW.

That in turn means it’s likely not regularly visited by Jedi.

Add in that Han seemingly had no formal education, instead being an urchin raised by criminal gangs? His ignorance is actually plausible.

Well...gak, good point.

Ah! No wait, I got it...Chewie! Chewie meet Jedi before. Christ he helped Yoda himself escape! Why wouldn’t he pipe up about that when Han starts talking gak? Even back before the prequels were made it was established that he’s 100s of years old, so he’s bound to have encountered them at some point?

It’s plausible it wouldn’t come up.

I mean, Chewie knows the Jedi were real. Han doesn’t. Post Order 66 and Palpatine’s media manipulation?

Would you genuinely believe the Wookiee. Or consider it his own folklore?

Also do you have any friends that are hindu or bhuddist or any other religion thats not yours? How often do they talk about it? How much do you believe their religion as fact?

Just because in SW the force is fact doesn't mean it is taken as such by people who haven't witnessed it first hand.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Dude, as much as i love Star Wars watch the expanse, seriously, its SOOOO good

I am completely aware of this fact!

I've been reading the books for years, bought the S1 Blu-ray on import before it hit streaming - I was not disappointed.

However, for some inexplicable reason I've never got any further than that... I need my head looking at, I know...

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Well...gak, good point.

Ah! No wait, I got it...Chewie! Chewie meet Jedi before. Christ he helped Yoda himself escape! Why wouldn’t he pipe up about that when Han starts talking gak? Even back before the prequels were made it was established that he’s 100s of years old, so he’s bound to have encountered them at some point?

Great, now I’ve got this image in my mind of every time Han starts dismissing force stuff Chewie’s there in the back ground rolling his eyes and
growling to himself “idiot”.

 Lance845 wrote:
Also do you have any friends that are hindu or bhuddist or any other religion thats not yours? How often do they talk about it? How much do you believe their religion as fact?

Just because in SW the force is fact doesn't mean it is taken as such by people who haven't witnessed it first hand.

I figure that this is a message we often miss in SW because whilst its presented in the first few films, we quickly see the Force doing things as an audience and those who disbelieve are often shown to be a "out of the norm." or from a backwater world with little education. It's something where you need series focusing on non-force users to really drive home how rare Jedi were even at the height of their power.

 Manchu wrote:
The slick, lightsaber-obsessed prequels really cut against that grain.

Which is kind of the point, y'know? It was showing SW in a different time, with a different aesthetic and a different culture (overall). A time of peace (so to speak) rather than a galactic civil war between an overbearing military dictatorship and disparate groups of desperate partisan fighters.

The sequels... well they could never figure out what they wanted to be. Too much like the OT at first (obsessively so, as to be as safe as possible), then the next one was all "kill the past!" and that failed horrifically, and then the third one tried to somehow mush the two together and cut out parts of the second. "Aesthetically nonsensical" was a good way of putting it.

The prequels tried to do something different. They weren't successful the whole way through (especially in acting, character direction and directing), but it was showing off a vastly different part of SW history. The sequels never knew what they wanted to do as there was no plan to start with, and no one ever followed-up on what came before, leaving it a mish-mash of poor attempts at nostalgia and equally misguided attempts to "subvert" expectations.

You note that Rogue One did none of that, making a movie set firmly in the OT, and as a result comes across as the most "pure" SW. Mandalorian does the same thing, even if it is after ROTJ, it's still within that timeframe (only 5 years after the Battle of Endor). This is why these feel better to us than any Supreme Leader Snokes, Rose Tikos or magical daggers that just happen to line up with 30-year old wreckage.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It’s plausible it wouldn’t come up.

I mean, Chewie knows the Jedi were real. Han doesn’t. Post Order 66 and Palpatine’s media manipulation?

Would you genuinely believe the Wookiee. Or consider it his own folklore?

It's possible it might never have came up, but I like to think that Chewie and Han actually talked about this sort of thing. What else would you talk about on long space journeys or down the space pub?

Now wither or not Han believes him though is a different matter, but I like to think that he'd give his friend the benefit of the doubt.

Also, isn't Corellia a core world or something? Like, galatically next door to Corescant or something?

Lance845 wrote:Also do you have any friends that are hindu or bhuddist or any other religion thats not yours? How often do they talk about it? How much do you believe their religion as fact?

Just because in SW the force is fact doesn't mean it is taken as such by people who haven't witnessed it first hand.

I know what you mean, but the Jedi were once a branch of the Galactic government, from not that long ago. And not a secret branch either. So unless that Imperial indoctrenation is really good, I just find it hard for anyone to dismiss the Jedi within living memory when they were so open.

Jadenim wrote:Great, now I’ve got this image in my mind of every time Han starts dismissing force stuff Chewie’s there in the back ground rolling his eyes and growling to himself “idiot”.

See that's exactly what I was thinking too!

But, I think I'm derailing the thread here. What we have seen is what we have. No changing it, so I'll leave it.

 Jadenim wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Well...gak, good point.

Ah! No wait, I got it...Chewie! Chewie meet Jedi before. Christ he helped Yoda himself escape! Why wouldn’t he pipe up about that when Han starts talking gak? Even back before the prequels were made it was established that he’s 100s of years old, so he’s bound to have encountered them at some point?

Great, now I’ve got this image in my mind of every time Han starts dismissing force stuff Chewie’s there in the back ground rolling his eyes and
growling to himself “idiot”.

And now consider what Artoo is doing every time 3PO says 'Thank the Maker!'