Is Chaos doing anything to stop the Tyranids?

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**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

In the original Background, the Warp is affected by emotions in real space.

Similar emotions pool and eddy, and overtime can become Gods.

Now, much of The Warp’s turbulence is caused by humanity. We’re pretty much everywhere, and we’re unruly with poor control over our emotions.

Add in that currently, the Chaos Gods can exert certain influence on real space, creating a self generating source of fuel.

Now, if humanity, the largest single source of emotion gone? It’s entirely possible the Chaos Gods would dissipate, as the very stuff of their being ceases.

**roboemperor**

Chaos is doing nothing to stop the nids because nids are a threat they can ignore atm.

If country A and B are at war, and then Country C joins the war and is attacking Country B, should Country A
a. attack Country B and only B while it's fighting on two fronts now
or
b. attack Country C and help relieve pressure on Country B, the target they're trying to kill?

If IoM is dead then Chaos will try to stop the nids because Tzeentch hates them because it ends all futures, Slaanesh hates them more than necrons because they're even more unfeeling than necrons, Nurgle hates them because none of his gak ever works on the nids, and Khorne will fight the nids for the skulls. Even gave a Chaos Lord Daemonprincehood for giving him 50 tyranid skulls.

**solkan**

The “Forces of Chaos” aren’t doing anything about the Tyranids threat because the “Forces of Chaos” are anthropomorphized warp storms driven by a feedback loop with the nearby human (and compatible Xenos) presence.

It’d be like local wildlife mounting coordinated attacks on invaders during a war. Aggressive wildlife would be expected to attack troops as a matter of opportunism, or territorialism, but you won’t see the wildlife form up into armies to repel invaders.

Demon activity should be similar, but territorialism or opportunism is going to look vastly different because the geometry of the warp doesn’t match the geometry of real space.

The various Chaos legions and warbands are probably dealing with the Tyranid presence as an unnatural disaster, either they can take advantage of it or they avoid it, but they’ve got their own agenda that takes priority. I mean, if there were a huge hive fleet pointed at Sol, you’d probably see a whole bunch of forces preparing popcorn and a whole bunch of forces trying to decide if they should stop it because they want to take down Sol instead, and the rest trying to figure out what advantage they can gain from it.

Reaching the point of being able to decide that the Tyranids are an existential threat would require two things:
1. Sharing information about the Tyranids widely
2. Concern about the state of the universe beyond their personal agendas.

I mean, this is the forces of Chaos. You’d need someone with the influence of Abaddon without their own more immediate agenda. Otherwise, the Tyranids may as well be space wildfires.

**cody.d.**

To be honest I'd imagine Chaos would have among the best chance of dealing with the Tyranids as a whole, outside of necrons with their legions and super tech. And maybe orks with their tendancy to rise to any fight and their weapons being about as inconsistent as chaos.

The major threat of the nids is their adaptability. You use a gun or a virus, a few spawnings later the nids are immune to it. There was a tau vs nid story in one codex or another describing how the tau would change tactics, the nids would adapt, over and over again like 2 kids making up super powers and then their anti super power defense.

Chaos is all about change and mutation, individuality and randomness. If they put up a solid number of Obliterators or mutilators or called upon the dark mechanicus i'd imagine they would be able to keep up with the adaptation or simply spew out excessive amounts of firepower. Would they be able to push the tyranids back or defeat them? Who knows, there's some damn big guns hanging around in the 40K universe that could take out the hive ships.

**pm713**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Afaik there has never been any fluff to suggest the Chaos gods actually need sustenance to continue existing. But if someone can correct me on that I would be very interested.

Edit: This is of course leaving out the multidimensional possibility wherein AoS and 40k literally have the same Warp.

The Valedor novel has a Farseer see a future where Tyranids eat everyone and what happens is the Tyranids leave, then Chaos parties for a while before dying. Necrons get to chill on the dead planets.

**NinthMusketeer**

pm713 wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Afaik there has never been any fluff to suggest the Chaos gods actually need sustenance to continue existing. But if someone can correct me on that I would be very interested.

Edit: This is of course leaving out the multidimensional possibility wherein AoS and 40k literally have the same Warp.

The Valedor novel has a Farseer see a future where Tyranids eat everyone and what happens is the Tyranids leave, then Chaos parties for a while before dying. Necrons get to chill on the dead planets.

Thank you for the info!

**Dysartes**

techsoldaten wrote:
I imagine Nurgle would find the Tyranids tempting. If there was a way to infect an entire Hive Fleet, that would serve his purposes.

But that's certainly not an idea that's been explored.

Isn't that the background for one of the "Chapter Tactic" Hive Fleets? Tyranid poisons and adaptability overcoming Nurgle's diseases, or something like that?

**Not Online!!!**

considering chaos allready has infected genestealer cults
.

**Tyran**

Dysartes wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
I imagine Nurgle would find the Tyranids tempting. If there was a way to infect an entire Hive Fleet, that would serve his purposes.

But that's certainly not an idea that's been explored.

Isn't that the background for one of the "Chapter Tactic" Hive Fleets? Tyranid poisons and adaptability overcoming Nurgle's diseases, or something like that?

You are thinking of Gorgon's spore agents overcoming Plague Marine biology.

**Orlanth**

I can see Lorgar doing something about it, he would fear running out of potential worshippers.

**Table**

Matt Swain wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Would it make more sense for chaos to work out how to direct give fleets at critical imperial targets.

However In one of the recent stories don’t chaos turn up as the nids are about to defeat the BA at Baal?

That sounds like something Alpha Legion would do.

I'm suspecting the AL actually wants to save humanity from chaos and the imperium, after reading their book. Alpharius was shown that both chaos and the emperor would destroy humanity eventually, in different ways. I suspect he/they resolved tosave humanity from both, which is why they occasionally seem to help the imperium. Keeping the nids from eating the human race would likely be a priority op for them.

I can see one of them subtly mentioning around abadon that if the nids destroy the imperium it will deny him the chance to, leading ol' abby to declare a black crusade against them. "NO ONE SHALL CRUSH THE FALSE EMPEROR BUT ME!!!"

AL are 99% chaos. I say 99% because im sure there could be a a few splinter cells thinking of themselves as renegades. But by far the largest portion of the AL are now firmly chaos. They have demon princes. They summon demons. They have the worst intent for the imperium that is possible.

The old AL lore has been retconned (for better or worse) and BL cant be counted as actual lore.

**locarno24**

Orlanth wrote:
I can see Lorgar doing something about it, he would fear running out of potential worshippers.

That actually comes up in the word bearers trilogy: the word bearers do crush a stealer cult on a planet. A key thing with some (not all) of Lorgar's sons is that they see themselves as fighting for humanity: unity with the warp and the strength the chaos god's offer is the only way humanity survives long-term.

It's a pretty horrific future, full of nasty daemonic possession and tentacles, but at the same time "this is the truth, it's the only way humanity survives, if it's horrifying to you then suck it up" is basically the same argument the Emperor makes for HIS plan.

**Lorek**

I couldn't find the quote, but there's a fluff blurb in one of the books about a Chaos Lord / Sorcerer / Whatever bemoaning the Tyranids stealing the galaxy, and that the Chaos gods will not be denied their prize.

Seems to me that Chaos is very invested in fighting the Tyranids.

**pm713**

Table wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Would it make more sense for chaos to work out how to direct give fleets at critical imperial targets.

However In one of the recent stories don’t chaos turn up as the nids are about to defeat the BA at Baal?

That sounds like something Alpha Legion would do.

I'm suspecting the AL actually wants to save humanity from chaos and the imperium, after reading their book. Alpharius was shown that both chaos and the emperor would destroy humanity eventually, in different ways. I suspect he/they resolved tosave humanity from both, which is why they occasionally seem to help the imperium. Keeping the nids from eating the human race would likely be a priority op for them.

I can see one of them subtly mentioning around abadon that if the nids destroy the imperium it will deny him the chance to, leading ol' abby to declare a black crusade against them. "NO ONE SHALL CRUSH THE FALSE EMPEROR BUT ME!!!"

AL are 99% chaos. I say 99% because im sure there could be a a few splinter cells thinking of themselves as renegades. But by far the largest portion of the AL are now firmly chaos. They have demon princes. They summon demons. They have the worst intent for the imperium that is possible.

The old AL lore has been retconned (for better or worse) and BL cant be counted as actual lore.

BL is 100% lore and there's no point denying it.

**Table**

pm713 wrote:
Table wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Would it make more sense for chaos to work out how to direct give fleets at critical imperial targets.

However In one of the recent stories don’t chaos turn up as the nids are about to defeat the BA at Baal?

That sounds like something Alpha Legion would do.

I'm suspecting the AL actually wants to save humanity from chaos and the imperium, after reading their book. Alpharius was shown that both chaos and the emperor would destroy humanity eventually, in different ways. I suspect he/they resolved tosave humanity from both, which is why they occasionally seem to help the imperium. Keeping the nids from eating the human race would likely be a priority op for them.

I can see one of them subtly mentioning around abadon that if the nids destroy the imperium it will deny him the chance to, leading ol' abby to declare a black crusade against them. "NO ONE SHALL CRUSH THE FALSE EMPEROR BUT ME!!!"

AL are 99% chaos. I say 99% because im sure there could be a a few splinter cells thinking of themselves as renegades. But by far the largest portion of the AL are now firmly chaos. They have demon princes. They summon demons. They have the worst intent for the imperium that is possible.

The old AL lore has been retconned (for better or worse) and BL cant be counted as actual lore.

BL is 100% lore and there's no point denying it.

Source? Codex trumps BL regardless. And in the codex (and every single other GW product for 8th...non BL of course) there are ZERO mentions of loyalist AL. There sure are a lot of instances of demon summoning and killing loyalists however. As an aside, I do not understand the fetish that some players have for making the AL loyalist. But on the same token, I do not understand my own fetish for debunking them. I think im the worse off of the two :(

**Lord Zarkov**

Table wrote:

Source? Codex trumps BL regardless. And in the codex (and every single other GW product for 8th...non BL of course) there are ZERO mentions of loyalist AL. There sure are a lot of instances of demon summoning and killing loyalists however. As an aside, I do not understand the fetish that some players have for making the AL loyalist. But on the same token, I do not understand my own fetish for debunking them. I think im the worse off of the two :(

“Marc Gascoigne, at the time head of BL wrote:"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about “canonical background” will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…

Here’s our standard line: Yes it’s all official, but remember that we’re reporting back from a time where stories aren’t always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let’s put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex… and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a “big question” doesn’t matter. It’s all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is “Yes and no” or perhaps “Sometimes”. And for me, that’s the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be “sometimes” or “it varies” or “depends”.

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It’s a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me."

That said, it’s mostly just the Horus Heresy series that really plays up the ‘maybe they’re really loyalists?’ thing (mostly in Legion, which was the story of why they sided with Horus) and that’s set 10,000 years in the past (though IIRC Index Astartes back in the day may have created the seeds of it in the first place). There’s a present day BL book about an AL daemon prince!

Tbh it seems the primarchs may have initially sided with Horus for ‘loyalist’ reasons (though other HH books imply there may have been disagreement between the two). But in a legion so secretive did all the legion know?

If they did, in a legion which prides itself on a decentralised command structure did they maintain it all the way though the madness of the Heresy?

Even if that was the case, would they all be able to maintain if for 10,000 years? Almost certainly not (though a few might, and arguably those are the interesting ones). As can be seen they do have daemon princes and chaos is awfully seductive. Just look at Inquisitors - they tend to last a few hundred years tops before jumping off the slippery slope and becoming indistinguishable from the Heretics they fight. The likelihood is after 10,000 years almost all the AL are full on traitors by now, however noble their initial aims...

**Matt Swain**

Does abbadon still have his planet killer? I could imagine it being useful against tyranids. Le tthem infest a planet, invest a lot of resources into eating it them BOOM! Drop the planet killer out of the warp and blow it up, preferably while some of the big ships are attacked to it and feeding.

I recall that abby was able to blow up a few stars with stolen blackstone fortresses in the battlefleet gothic game. Well, again, let a hive fleet into a system cluster around the planet and KABOOM! Nova the star and kill the fleet before it can get underway and outrun the nova. The initial burst of gamma, xray radiation and heat would expand at the speed of light, outrun that, bugs.

**mrFickle**

The CSM codex tells that AL turned to Horus because they had a distant relationship with the emperor and they admired the present war master Horus. It was their martial pride that was their down fall. That’s it and that’s totally contradictory to the BL HH novels. So which is correct

The codex really wastes a lot of pages talking about non BL legions, I don’t know why they bothered considering the GWs love of producing I’ve priced books they should have just done supplements.

I think the GW painted themselves into a corner with the AL being so compelling in the HH but to complex to deliver in the 6 pages they are given in the codex.

It also does not confirm that alparius died or mention the name omegon

**Kcalehc**

There are humans in the Eye of Terror, no? So assuming the Tyranids are not actually able to enter, and just bypass it, Chaos can survive on them for a little bit. Wait till the 'nids have nommed the entire galaxy and moved on, then out they pop and start seeding world with cultists, etc...

So not really a loss, just a very long slow, marginally painful, eventual victory.

**123ply**

techsoldaten wrote:
I imagine Nurgle would find the Tyranids tempting. If there was a way to infect an entire Hive Fleet, that would serve his purposes.

But that's certainly not an idea that's been explored.

Not an entire hivefleet, but something similar has happened. Forget what its called, but it was a huge daemon vs nid scrap. Theres an older picture of a bloodthirster strangling a carnifex with his whip, and its supposed to be from that warzone.

Nurgle cooked up some viruses and stuff, and at first its devestating, but the Tyranids eventually adapted and became immune to his virulents. (Why he didnt counter-adapt and make different viruses is beyond me) Daemons were at first winning but since nids and tau are the only beings in the galaxy that can improvise, the nids slowly begin to win by doing some obvious gak like not engaging the khornate daemons in melee where they would get ripped apart, and just basically kite them as if the daemons had no way to catch up or shoot back. Then the daemons start weakening either because killing tyranids bored them or because the Shadow got stronger and stronger as the fight went on, or both. Eventually, the Daemons, beings created directly from 4 extremley powerful gods de-materialize and gain another loss, this time against a faction that is basically just NPCs.

So yeah, Daemons have never won a single large battle as far as I can remember

**Matt Swain**

Hmmm, nurgle and nids...

Hehheh, you just gave me an idea for a 40k story. A planet is in the path of the nids, and the imperium has more or less abandoned it. A savior comes along offering protection from the nids.

The people in desperation accept the offer, and it turns out the protection is a nurgle plague that makes the living creatures on the planet so foul and diseased the nids come down, sniff the air, nibble a few local lifeforms and then retreat back to their ships holding their noses and gagging.

(Just imagine the bottom of your laundry hamper after a couple months of quarantine and laundromats being closed. Too bad we don't have a barfing orkmoticon...)

So, yeah, the population is safe from the nids, after willingly accepting one of nurgle's nastier creations.

**Solidcrash**

Immaterial the planets into warp might be only way to save humans? There are lot of planet was lost in warp for 10,000 years and popping up in 40k. Chaos always do that.

Maybe gellar field whole hive or very important city and immaterial into warp to skipped 10,000 years later (50k anyone?) and let Tyranids blindly fly past while it in deep sleep.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

On the long run the chaos gods will have to eventually wipe them anyway, because they want the Imperium broken, perverted ajd enslaved to feed them on. While they first and foremost actuvely try to bring the Imperium down, which is both a way to prevent humanity reaching a level were they might resist Chaos, and a hate fueled revenge, the tyranids will eventually pose a threat.

That said, for now, they are mostly set to continuing the long war from enclaves such as the Eye of Terror and tye Maëlstrom, which means that their "bases" and "domains" are unlikely to suffer a direct attack from the tyranids. Apart from Kronos, I can't think of a hive particularly invasive of Chaos. However their footholds in realspace might, but they're not as essential.

To my mind when Chaos gets to scronch the tyranids the demons will be on the first line, since they are the direct extention of the gods' will and the best and first troops to set the gods' agenda in motion, but for now they won't allow the Imperium to catch its breath.

I have little knowledge of newer fluff but since Cadia fell and all, it'd be a shame for Chaos to stop its efforts right now.

In the meantime, individual warbands might still take actions against the tyranids, but the lack of unity withon Chaos means that a common aganda by the legions is unlakely anyway.

My 2 cents.

**Niiai**

The chaos gulf has been the most effective weapon against the nids so far. By far better then any other singel thing, besides constantly battle them and starving them when ever possible.

Hive fleet kronos is spesifically adapted to fight chaos at long range because they get so little biomass from daemons.

**Solidcrash**

Necron have far super effective on Tyranids compared to Chaos.
Chao will need some soul survival from Tyranids and Necron because they both are soul destroying.

What if there are no soul left in galaxy.. would warps still open?

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Solidcrash wrote:
Necron have far super effective on Tyranids compared to Chaos.
Chao will need some soul survival from Tyranids and Necron because they both are soul destroying.

What if there are no soul left in galaxy.. would warps still open?

Random thought: if there were no more souls to feed the warp, would it cease to exist or turn back to how it used to be prior to the war in heaven?

**Tyran**

Likely revert to its original calm state.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Likely! But on the other hand, at the time, there used to be already soul-sporting live forms like the Ancients to give it its shape, so the end of sentient life might theoritically make it literaly empty?

**Carlovonsexron**

I usually liken it to a hand on a piece of paper.

We have a vast existence far beyond the scope of that paper, but relative to the paper our existence in very well defined.

Even in terms of time there was a point where even though we obviously existed.and going on with our lives did not exist relative to the piece of paper, and putting our hand on paper represents our beginning there.

The 40k universe is like that paper, except.for the hand of slaanesh to manifest it required something to channel it; the Aeldar cant destroy Slaanesh, but perhaps they can do something to something to force it out and away from thier universe.

(maybe it'll focus on the AoS reality.instead. I'd really like some Slaaneshi mortals!)

**Table**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends entirely if they’re looking it for it or not. The key thing about Chaos is that sanity doesn’t exactly run in the family.

With no central government or information source, how can they hope to confront any Hive Fleet in the numbers required?

If there is any active monitoring going on, it’s likely being used to help avoid launching raids and attacks where the Hive Fleets are headed - or to attack once such a fleet has been driven off.

But outright confronting the Nids in a battle for control of the Galaxy? I just don’t see Chaos having the numbers or cohesion to even think about it.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say. And has little to do with me being a chaos fanboy. Going just by the lore we have you can see that the chaos gods can and do ally in times where it is advantageous to do so (the whole horus heresy bit). And as for being out numbered? Perhaps, depending on the battle field. Chaos demon legions are limitless in number, the problem is making a hole big enough to get them into reality. This is not counting the god claimed Traitor legions and the others who have fallen into line with Abby. Chaos very much has the numbers and the cohesion when warranted. However, I don't see them coming together to deal with the problem until it almost to late.