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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:01:58
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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RedNoak wrote:Voss wrote:
Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.
aha. this is literally what SITUATIONAL means....
not so thrilled about the 'cool headed' rule, though... we all know what 'far in between' generally means for GW...
really hoping to see fall back as a strategem, that would make me wanna field my orks close combat centric again
Yeah remember when almost nothing in 8th would be immune to morale XD
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:02:27
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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BaconCatBug wrote:RedNoak wrote:Voss wrote:
Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.
aha. this is literally what SITUATIONAL means....
not so thrilled about the 'cool headed' rule, though... we all know what 'far in between' generally means for GW...
really hoping to see fall back as a strategem, that would make me wanna field my orks close combat centric again
Cool headed is only for narrative (crusade) play anyway.
Except you can take Crusade Armies in matched play too. Pretty sure GW said that.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:05:49
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:RedNoak wrote:Voss wrote:
Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.
aha. this is literally what SITUATIONAL means....
not so thrilled about the 'cool headed' rule, though... we all know what 'far in between' generally means for GW...
really hoping to see fall back as a strategem, that would make me wanna field my orks close combat centric again
Cool headed is only for narrative (crusade) play anyway.
Except you can take Crusade Armies in matched play too. Pretty sure GW said that.
They said there will be rules for playing a crusade army against a matched play army, but that crusade benefits would use the PL system rather than the points system.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:05:49
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Freaky Flayed One
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except you can take Crusade Armies in matched play too. Pretty sure GW said that.
The warcom article said it was a Narrative Play system mainly with a tool to convert a Matched play army to play a Crusade mission.
"* As a campaign system for narrative play, Crusade uses Power Ratings instead of points values.
** All your opponent will need to do is quickly calculate the Power Rating of their matched play army, and then you simply complete a Crusade mission! Any difference in your army’s respective Crusade scores (your opponent’s score would be zero as it’s not a Crusade army) will accrue them some bonuses to help balance things out."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:08:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:07:42
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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That set to defend is interesting because it's not replacing overwatch its instead of.
That says to me you charge anyone and they'll get a plus one to hit you for all charges if they are in cover. In a lot of cases I'd prob take that instead of overwatch! Hmmm maybe a nerf in disguise for assault units charging
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:09:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:11:18
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Dakka Veteran
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BaconCatBug wrote:RedNoak wrote:Voss wrote:
Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.
aha. this is literally what SITUATIONAL means....
not so thrilled about the 'cool headed' rule, though... we all know what 'far in between' generally means for GW...
really hoping to see fall back as a strategem, that would make me wanna field my orks close combat centric again
Cool headed is only for narrative (crusade) play anyway.
thanks for clarifiying bacon! did miss the crusader part
i dont think crusader will have any impact in matched play, outside of friendly games
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:14:51
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
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Latro_ wrote:That set to defend is interesting because it's not replacing overwatch its instead of.
That says to me you charge anyone and they'll get a plus one to hit you for all charges if they are in cover. In a lot of cases I'd prob take that instead of overwatch! Hmmm maybe a nerf in disguise for assault units charging
It also gives a tangible bonus to hold objectives with HTH troops.
I mean, 10 Ork Boyz with Slugga and Choppa, Set To Defend (or is it the other one?) would be what, 30 Attacks hitting on a 2+ against charging units?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:24:47
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I know no one is going to agree with me, but I think if falling back from combat is a stat it will swing too much in the favour of melle amries.
I remember 3rd or 4th edition(so long ago so forgive me)
Where you would have melee armies hitting melee and making sure not to kill units so they stayed in combat, killing them in the following combat.
then charging into next line.
it was pretty much kill the Melee army before they hit your lines or it was game over. It really wasn't fun.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't know. It could be a swing too far.
i play a CC army by the way.
I'm not arguing against others opinions here, it's just my opinion on it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:25:25
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Dakka Veteran
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Latro_ wrote:That set to defend is interesting because it's not replacing overwatch its instead of. That says to me you charge anyone and they'll get a plus one to hit you for all charges if they are in cover. In a lot of cases I'd prob take that instead of overwatch! Hmmm maybe a nerf in disguise for assault units charging It also gives a tangible bonus to hold objectives with HTH troops. I mean, 10 Ork Boyz with Slugga and Choppa, Set To Defend (or is it the other one?) would be what, 30 Attacks hitting on a 2+ against charging units? nah first of thos 30 attacks wont do much at s4 and ap0 and secondly 10 orks wont survive any decent CC wave... its good though for tougher units Automatically Appended Next Post: Doohicky wrote:I know no one is going to agree with me, but I think if falling back from combat is a stat it will swing too much in the favour of melle amries. I remember 3rd or 4th edition(so long ago so forgive me) Where you would have melee armies hitting melee and making sure not to kill units so they stayed in combat, killing them in the following combat. then charging into next line. it was pretty much kill the Melee army before they hit your lines or it was game over. It really wasn't fun. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't know. It could be a swing too far. i play a CC army by the way. I'm not arguing against others opinions here, it's just my opinion on it yeah i kinda agree... miniwargaming's steve at a conversation about exactly that... with all the units that are able to reliable charge from 30" away... we kinda NEED a fallback mechanic. but still... i would much more prefere a strat that costs 1cp and allowes all units in a CC to retreat and yeah that was 3rd AND 4th edition. Tau army would castle up in a corner... and by turn 4 or so a single boy unit would finally hit their lines and smach up the entire army  those were the times^^
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:29:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:35:34
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Very happy with the Overwatch rules and the defensible trait. This is more like it, lads. I share the anxiety about abilities like Cool Headed, though. I can definiately half the marine armies in the game having some sort of free overwatch by the time we're halfway through the edition. Like Cool Headed sounds like a rewrite of ATSKNF.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:38:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:36:26
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Castle Tau in 3rd and 4th were asking to get stomped. They had one of the most mobile armies in those editions. I remember kiting CC armies all game because vehicles couldn't get locked in combat.
Any ways, perhaps in 9th they could tone down all the units with over compensated charge buffs like genestealers because they don't need them now to function at a basic level.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:37:18
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Dakka Veteran
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did you read the marine faction article?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:37:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 19:58:41
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Latro_ wrote:That set to defend is interesting because it's not replacing overwatch its instead of.
That says to me you charge anyone and they'll get a plus one to hit you for all charges if they are in cover. In a lot of cases I'd prob take that instead of overwatch! Hmmm maybe a nerf in disguise for assault units charging
It also gives a tangible bonus to hold objectives with HTH troops.
I mean, 10 Ork Boyz with Slugga and Choppa, Set To Defend (or is it the other one?) would be what, 30 Attacks hitting on a 2+ against charging units?
But the charging units would get the benefit of cover, not the Orks (for their saving throw). Remember that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 19:59:17
WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:03:51
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
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I did not know that. You sure? Sounds odd.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:04:51
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Stormonu wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Voss wrote:Hmmm. When a group of three bikers can take the same amount of damage as a main battle tank, you might have goofed your game design.
Well, bikes work this way:
- 1 hand to use your pistol
- 1 hand to use your chainsaw
- 1 hand to drive the bike
- 1 hand to shoot the bike's gun
Makes perfect sense, you just need 4 hands!
Explains the GSC headed captain. All hail the four-armed emperor!
That was my immediate thought about the head..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:07:18
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Regular Dakkanaut
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RedNoak wrote:
yeah i kinda agree... miniwargaming's steve at a conversation about exactly that... with all the units that are able to reliable charge from 30" away... we kinda NEED a fallback mechanic. but still... i would much more prefere a strat that costs 1cp and allowes all units in a CC to retreat
and yeah that was 3rd AND 4th edition. Tau army would castle up in a corner... and by turn 4 or so a single boy unit would finally hit their lines and smach up the entire army
those were the times^^
A strat that allows multiple units to fall back I could get on board with. I think that would be a nice middle ground.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:08:24
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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Ready the Heavy Cover rules carefully. The unit gets +1 save unless the model MAKING the attack charged. So, the unit that charged gets cover (for now being in cover) but the unit that is receiving the charge does not.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/17 20:09:32
WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:12:07
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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It is a very poorly worded rule, but that is standard with GW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:12:49
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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On review, I think the biggest change is actually the one kinda sneaked in there, that the unit you elect to overwatch with can only do so once against one target, even if that target then fails its charge roll or is destroyed by the overwatch. This gives a lot more control to the charging player, and it's a good change.
Unfortunately, it only seems to apply to the overwatch stratagem - it's not in the base rule. Which means it has no impact on stuff that gets overwatch natively or through some other rule.
So again, it all comes down to how many other ways to overwatch there are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:17:26
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Jervis Johnson
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I wouldn’t read too much into the Crusade abilities. You collect experience in the campaign and your units gain superman powers. Won’t have anything to do with standard tournament matched play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:24:08
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
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puma713 wrote:
Ready the Heavy Cover rules carefully. The unit gets +1 save unless the model MAKING the attack charged. So, the unit that charged gets cover (for now being in cover) but the unit that is receiving the charge does not.
OK, cool.
My only reservation on that wording is how someone is defined to be receiving the benefits of cover. Otherwise thank you for the clarification
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:27:15
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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Therion wrote:I wouldn’t read too much into the Crusade abilities. You collect experience in the campaign and your units gain superman powers. Won’t have anything to do with standard tournament matched play.
By most accounts, they have "Power Level" adjustments associated with benefits, for the purposes of balanced narrative play between experienced (has Crusade abilities) and inexperienced (does not, or has a much more limited number) players.
Estimating points from PL is not exactly a difficult task, and I suspect folks will try that at home. That could, eventually, lead to GW playtesting point costs for abilities, released initially as playtesting in a Chapter Approved.
By no means certain, but I don't think they'll get the support for Crusade-style play if they don't get a bit more precise than PL.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:27:21
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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So, we know that there are 7 core strategems now. If we assume the original ones don't change, then we have:
Old
1. Reroll a die.
2. Interrupt combat order.
3. Auto-pass morale.
New:
4. Cut Them Down
5. Fire Overwatch
6. ??
7. ??
I could see one of them being a Fall Back strategem. I know that we think it isn't because they've referenced Falling Back more than once, but we can hope. I think we've also heard that one of them could be Falling Back through models. Of course, the original 3 are subject to change as well.
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WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:44:39
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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[DCM]
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It's admittedly been a while since I played a game of 40K...
How was trying to escape from close combat handled in 7th and 8th?
And is it really going to be a 'free pass' out of CC in 9th?
Given how shooty 40K is overall, and how shooty 8th is and 9th looks to be?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:48:17
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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puma713 wrote:So, we know that there are 7 core strategems now. If we assume the original ones don't change, then we have:
Old
1. Reroll a die.
2. Interrupt combat order.
3. Auto-pass morale.
New:
4. Cut Them Down
5. Fire Overwatch
6. ??
7. ??
I could see one of them being a Fall Back strategem. I know that we think it isn't because they've referenced Falling Back more than once, but we can hope. I think we've also heard that one of them could be Falling Back through models. Of course, the original 3 are subject to change as well.
Prepared positions is most likely still around
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:51:47
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Alpharius wrote:It's admittedly been a while since I played a game of 40K...
How was trying to escape from close combat handled in 7th and 8th?
And is it really going to be a 'free pass' out of CC in 9th?
Given how shooty 40K is overall, and how shooty 8th is and 9th looks to be?
There have been a lot of tools tossed into recent books to prevent people from leaving combat, but it's possible that the game will change how things work for falling back. Honestly I won't be surprised if Falling Back becomes a strat too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:56:43
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Therion wrote:I wouldn’t read too much into the Crusade abilities. You collect experience in the campaign and your units gain superman powers. Won’t have anything to do with standard tournament matched play.
I didn't mean that, I meant how they mentioned on the stream there were other ways to get overwatch too.
Based on what they said, I would not be at all surprised to see a fair number of units just get overwatch as a base rule, for free, with no one per phase limitation. And for faction traits and that sort of thing to give it to your entire army as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 20:58:18
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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yukishiro1 wrote: Therion wrote:I wouldn’t read too much into the Crusade abilities. You collect experience in the campaign and your units gain superman powers. Won’t have anything to do with standard tournament matched play.
I didn't mean that, I meant how they mentioned on the stream there were other ways to get overwatch too.
Based on what they said, I would not be at all surprised to see a fair number of units just get overwatch as a base rule, for free, with no one per phase limitation. And for faction traits and that sort of thing to give it to your entire army as well.
Free over watch I can believe, but not unlimited overwatch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 21:01:10
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If the free overwatch wasn't unlimited, why wouldn't the base rule have the limitation in it, not the stratagem?
The base rule is written to not limit your overwatch to one per phase per unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 21:02:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/06/17 21:02:07
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
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Terrifying Doombull
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RedNoak wrote:Voss wrote:
Eh. Its situational to the point of 'if I'm not rolling tons of dice or have 5+ flamers' I'm never going to use it, it turns no brainer again, and that is bad.
aha. this is literally what SITUATIONAL means....
No it isn't.
Situational is something that might be worth trying even if the likelihood isn't certain, because you might gain something. An 8" charge with no modifiers is situational (and, late game, might be all but certain if the game can make or break on that fight).
The kind of thing I'm thinking of with overwatch is when you're almost certain to get 10+ hits, likely more, hence 5+ flamers (though the statistics on that are more 15 hits average). That's worthwhile. Flame Aggressors are worthwhile.
A repulsor executioner with 33+ 3d6+d3 shots of S4 or 5 is a maybe (you'll probably get 7-8 hits out of it)
A typical 40k squad- 5 immortals, 10 cultists/guard/ GSC neophytes, 5 intercessors, etc? Those are NEVER worth firing in overwatch in this system. They aren't worth the CP, or the opportunity cost of another unit firing overwatch.
That isn't situational. You've either included a unit in your list that's worth firing in overwatch AND your enemy is foolish enough to charge it, or you don't spend the CP. It is just that simple.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/17 21:03:08
Efficiency is the highest virtue. |
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