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the_scotsman wrote:
At what point in the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven punch combo do we get to consider light units utterly hosed then?

50% point hikes while elite units get 20% hikes?
Unit coherency+autodeath for being out of coherency dictating casualty removal?
Terrain system that even further advantages high base stats?
No longer generating CP?
Blast weapons getting auto max hits?
Mission setups that benefit msu?
No longer being allowed to for anyone up in melee?

What the feth does a unit like gretchin, guardsmen, lesser daemons, cultists, gsc etc actually DO now? In what circumstance would you EVER want three cultists for an intercessor? The morale rule is a fething nothingburger, a tiny bonus for a style of play nobody used because making hordes fearless or effectively fearless is cheap as chips or free depending on what faction you play.

Until they preview some thing that actually gives a cheaper infantry unit some role that it can actually perform in game, yeah, its sure as hell looking like this is 40k, Elite Edition 5, Guns Edition 8. Say hi to the new boss, same as the old boss.

Cultists saw a 50% hike, but Necron Warriors only saw a 9% one despite them both being horde type units. It's only that -any- shift ot Cultists points was going to seem unreasonable when moving them up from 4ppm.

Unit coherency only punishes specific builds that people collectively hated: the daisy chain for buffs, around corners, ect. Yes, you can still do it, but not like before. It also punishes people for pulling from the middle as mentioned in a post above.

Cover is seeing a lot of improvements across the board. Yes, a +1 to your save from light/heavy cover helps models with lower number saves more, but the -1 to hit cap and 6s always hitting benefit low BS models more.

CP generation in 8th was garbage. Stop trying to defend it. You're not being shackled to spamming low cost units to maximize your CP freeing up points for other options. With other buffs in play stuff like Deff Dreads look like a good investment, for example, over you're 5th or 6th Grot squad.

Max hits =/= max wounds. It's still a dice game, and upping the number of hits only ups the average wounds a bit. Let's use the Leman Russ Battlecannon versus Orks with no buffs or cover as an example: 6 shots, 3 hit, 2.5 wounds go through = 2.5 dead Orks. Currently it averages 1.46 dead Orks, so it's better, but not breaking any heads in. I get it, dice can be swingy, but we're also not shooting on a bowling ball either. Stuff is going to be messing with those rolls. Even a -1 can drastically mess with a unit's number of successful wounds that get through.

How do the missions benefit MSU? Actions require units to still be alive to score. Killing 5 dudes is easier to do than killing 30, and if you're focusing down 30 dudes you're not shooting the other units elsewhere that are also performing actions. And other than 2 patrol missions (which are 500 point game missions), we've seen one mission that plays at 2k and I don't know how that benefits MSU more, but I can always be wrong.

I'm not sure about that last one, but if it's about not being able to drag your opponent's entire army into melee via massed charges, that was a stupid mechanic that hurt vehicle heavy armies more than any one else. Glad to see it gone.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I already gave you another alternative that is much easier to apply, stops long daisy-chains completely instead of requiring a buddy, and has none of the unintended and absurd consequences like the skyweaver example.

All models in a unit most be within X" of all other models. Set X at whatever you want, though I would suggest 14" as that is the length of a 5 model daisy chain with 32mm models. Keep 2" cohesion rule from 8th, obviously.

Super easy to apply (just use a paper cutout of X" diameter). No edge cases. No weird bowtie loopholes. No more long daisy-chains, period. What's not to like? If we think daisy chains are a problem it fixes them way better than the approach they took.

Now as much as I give GW a hard time, something I came up with in 30 seconds is clearly something that must have occurred to them too. So the question is: why did they choose this method instead? And I have to admit, I have no idea what the answer is.

I would really wish to ask playtesters on this one.

Ask the rules devs, they're the ones who decided on it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Necros wrote:
So, any new word on a release date or anything for the new box set? I was hoping it would have gone up for pre order by now. Last I heard was just "Maybe July"

GW has confirmed July. Many of us suspect it'll go on pre-order next week.

We know next's week preorder is Age of Sigmar's General's Handbook. With the Model preview on Saturday, it would make sense they announce on Sunday that the next Saturday's preorder will be the new edition and the new boxed set. So that's preorder on July 11th. All releases of this nature have been two week preorders, so July 25th is looking more an more likely.

I think we're all failing to ask the real question: how do Tyranids "raise the banner"? Do they just pee on the objective to mark it?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think we're all failing to ask the real question: how do Tyranids "raise the banner"? Do they just pee on the objective to mark it?

Synaptic rally point via psychic organism. Doesn't project synapse, but pulses the 'safe/stressed' tones over the Hivemind link. Probably an tentacle bundle or some sort of mid-sized capillary growth.

Edit: Probably going to make some little Markers to plop down on Objectives for this, depending on how common it might actually be. Have plenty of bits to make them as a Tyranid player.

Speaking of objective markers, the Sector Imperialis Objectives are still absent from the store. No longer available.

So, no longer relevant to the game, or getting an update/refresh?

 alextroy wrote:
We know next's week preorder is Age of Sigmar's General's Handbook. With the Model preview on Saturday, it would make sense they announce on Sunday that the next Saturday's preorder will be the new edition and the new boxed set. So that's preorder on July 11th. All releases of this nature have been two week preorders, so July 25th is looking more an more likely.

I very much like the sound of that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think we're all failing to ask the real question: how do Tyranids "raise the banner"? Do they just pee on the objective to mark it?

They plant the seeds for some very aesthetic capillary towers that will really spruce up the yard when they fill out, and guard said seeds while they sprout to make sure they don't get eaten by snails or killed by a late frost.

Pissing on a hilltop to mark it is what the Space Wolves do.

 Carnikang wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think we're all failing to ask the real question: how do Tyranids "raise the banner"? Do they just pee on the objective to mark it?

Synaptic rally point via psychic organism. Doesn't project synapse, but pulses the 'safe/stressed' tones over the Hivemind link. Probably an tentacle bundle or some sort of mid-sized capillary growth.

Right, so, glancing over this post at speed, every single word looks a little... different.
Not sure tyranids needed subtext, but here we are.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Speaking of objective markers, the Sector Imperialis Objectives are still absent from the store. No longer available.

I know you're talking about No Longer Available and not Temporarily Out of Stock Online, but the Tyranid selection is ridiculous right now. Out of 38 model versions in the Tyranid range (out of which 26 are unique kits), there are 12 (11 unique) available and 26 (15 unique) Temporarily Out of Stock.

Spotted thanks to the Competetive Warhammer Subreddit:

From the Genestealer Cults Faction Focus: "This, combined with the extra Command point per turn, means that over the standard* new edition game length of 5 battle rounds, you’ll have at least 17 in a game.".

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spotted thanks to the Competetive Warhammer Subreddit:

From the Genestealer Cults Faction Focus: "This, combined with the extra Command point per turn, means that over the standard* new edition game length of 5 battle rounds, you’ll have at least 17 in a game.".

Yeah, I think they say it a couple times in the Faction Focus.

That means Castles (excluding that one Tau castle people like to bring up that moves to the centerboard early game) need to start moving earlier in the game when more of the opposing army is still in play, which is good for the game. Plus shorter game.

Not sure if it was noted before, but a fun fact about the melta dudes: if in melta range, you throw two dices for the damage and keep one of the results (not necessarily the best). Sure gonna help against the poster NPC enemy's quantum shielding, because they were just not quite good enough without that little extra

PS: Not sure if that change of wording occurred mid-way during 8th for other meltas but I think it was always two dices and keep the best.

According to Brian from Tabletop Titans they will be doing a 9th preview and battle report during the pre-launch preview that GW is going to allow them to do plus they'll be doing their own "focus faction" articles every day for every faction in 40k where they will explain army list changes, how the rules affect various armies and so on.

Can't wait.

Also, in regards to horde units I take 3 x 30 PB's in my Daemons. Never saw the need to conga line them across the board. I just find it easier to blob them up close together. In 4th and 5th I separated them due to blast markers. Now with no blast markers I don't see the need to spread them apart.

Also with blasts. A d3 or a d6 blast weapon gets 2 additional hits if you roll a 1, 1 additional hit if you roll a 2, 3+ remains unchanged so I don't see how that's "extra horrible" for units from 6-10. Cover benefits units more. My 30 plaguebearers and poxwalkers aren't going to give a rats ass if a D3 shot blast weapon gets 1 or 2 additional shots on a roll of a 1 or 2.

just truly amazing I am surprised and the images above seems It belongs to some another planet, It's rocking.

https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/73466029#p73468195

A guy claiming to be a play tester dropped some tidbits on 4chan. Obviously it shouldn't be taken as gospel (cus 4chan, and also he made one slight mistake chatting about flyers falling back) but theres a few things worth considering:

1. Command reroll is more limited in what you can use it for, plus you reroll all dice.
2. Supreme command detachments are very different. He was vague, but you use them to bring a lord of war warlord (ie a primarch) and then get another detachment free.
3. He dropped points for the various detachments (mostly 2's and 3's) and some marine units (thunderfire cannon goes up a lot. Tactical are back to 15pts)

Again it could all be a troll but worth checking.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That means Castles (excluding that one Tau castle people like to bring up that moves to the centerboard early game) need to start moving earlier in the game when more of the opposing army is still in play, which is good for the game. Plus shorter game.

Yeah, and it also makes putting stuff in reserves very costly, especially if you plan not to bring it onto the table until T3. Especially stuff that doesn't move very quickly or have significant range.

jivardi wrote:
According to Brian from Tabletop Titans they will be doing a 9th preview and battle report during the pre-launch preview that GW is going to allow them to do plus they'll be doing their own "focus faction" articles every day for every faction in 40k where they will explain army list changes, how the rules affect various armies and so on.

Can't wait.

Also, in regards to horde units I take 3 x 30 PB's in my Daemons. Never saw the need to conga line them across the board. I just find it easier to blob them up close together. In 4th and 5th I separated them due to blast markers. Now with no blast markers I don't see the need to spread them apart.

Also with blasts. A d3 or a d6 blast weapon gets 2 additional hits if you roll a 1, 1 additional hit if you roll a 2, 3+ remains unchanged so I don't see how that's "extra horrible" for units from 6-10. Cover benefits units more. My 30 plaguebearers and poxwalkers aren't going to give a rats ass if a D3 shot blast weapon gets 1 or 2 additional shots on a roll of a 1 or 2.

I crunched the numbers earlier, and a Leman Russ Battlecannon on average kills 1.05 extra Orks assuming the Orks have no buffs of any kind.

Marine blasts will likely be meaner, but I also expect they'll be a lot more expensive too.

 Skywave wrote:
Not sure if it was noted before, but a fun fact about the melta dudes: if in melta range, you throw two dices for the damage and keep one of the results (not necessarily the best). Sure gonna help against the poster NPC enemy's quantum shielding, because they were just not quite good enough without that little extra

PS: Not sure if that change of wording occurred mid-way during 8th for other meltas but I think it was always two dices and keep the best.

Current SM codex is 'discard one.'

Index, deathguard and GSC are all 'discard lowest'

So maybe an 8.2 change.


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 puma713 wrote:
[
I know you're talking about No Longer Available and not Temporarily Out of Stock Online, but the Tyranid selection is ridiculous right now. Out of 38 model versions in the Tyranid range (out of which 26 are unique kits), there are 12 (11 unique) available and 26 (15 unique) Temporarily Out of Stock.

Necron line (at least stateside) is currently Szeras, Immortals/Deathmarks, Deceiver, Cryptek, Imotekh and the heavy destroyer gun, so 5 'kits' and some bits. Everything that isn't being replaced is temporary, but it wasn't quite that thin before the price change.

I'm kind of glad Custodes jetbikes come with the option of oval bases. Those will be easier to conga line if I want units of 6.

 Skywave wrote:
Not sure if it was noted before, but a fun fact about the melta dudes: if in melta range, you throw two dices for the damage and keep one of the results (not necessarily the best). Sure gonna help against the poster NPC enemy's quantum shielding, because they were just not quite good enough without that little extra

PS: Not sure if that change of wording occurred mid-way during 8th for other meltas but I think it was always two dices and keep the best.

With marine codex. They and sisters have superior meltas(usefuc occasionally even vs non necrons) than other imperium because bespoken rules. Huzah. Reminds days when dark angels had inferior storm shields just for fun of it

So many pages for a rule that no one is going to think twice about after a few games.

As with a lot of these changes, it looks like they are trying to punish the extremes that were making the game unfun. The arbitrary number of 5 is not really an issue, and running 6 models is not going to be a problem because you will just stagger them accordingly until you take a casualty, then you can forget about it. The key is it stops those 20-30 men long lines that were getting buffs from 40" away while holding an objective at the other end.

If this makes the game more dynamic by not allowing easy screens (hello, buff to melee), then it's a plus. The game needs more fluidity and I'm hoping we get closer to that with this ruleset. In reality, this rule is a non issue as soon as you remove yourself from the 8th edition mindset.

Leggy wrote:
https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/73466029#p73468195

A guy claiming to be a play tester dropped some tidbits on 4chan. Obviously it shouldn't be taken as gospel (cus 4chan, and also he made one slight mistake chatting about flyers falling back) but theres a few things worth considering:

1. Command reroll is more limited in what you can use it for, plus you reroll all dice.
2. Supreme command detachments are very different. He was vague, but you use them to bring a lord of war warlord (ie a primarch) and then get another detachment free.
3. He dropped points for the various detachments (mostly 2's and 3's) and some marine units (thunderfire cannon goes up a lot. Tactical are back to 15pts)

Again it could all be a troll but worth checking.

To quote mine from that thread:
Command Rerolls:

probably command rerolls...the 1CP strat everyone gets. Its affects a lot less now. what you can use it on is kinda in line with where miracle dice can be used. Also is used it afect the entire roll, not just a die now. So reroll on a charge means rolling both dice. 2 examples of where it can't be used it say to get a litany to take affect or rerolling to make a vehicle not explode

Secondaries:

These are so many I don't remember them all..lol. They depend on your army playstyle really. There are 5 categories of and you choose 3 with no more than 1 from each category. The first 3 categories were very similair to ITC mission secondary objectives. I say similar cause not the same. (Ex: one like recon, it scores if you have units in 3 table quarters or 4, the later obviously giving more points that turn) each secondary maxes at 15pts. The laster 2 categories were squad and character specific ones, usually very hard to pull off but worth big reward. In our crew every time we tried one we were shut down by the opponent usually or suffered for trying.

Detachments:

I dont remember seeing aux detachmets for the just one random unit. Supreme command is gone is the way you know it. Its there but now its a way to fit in Bobby G or Magnus kinda thing. you take it with them for no CP and then they have a rule called Supreme Commander, that allows one additional detachment free. But to do this they HAVE to be the army warlord

RE: Non-Supreme Commander LoWs getting hosed:

Yeah, Guard are really only suffering here, warithknight can still have a craftworld keyword and get strats used upon it. Otherwise you have to go all in on a super detach at 6CP. This got discussed a little but most serious lists in 8th didnt run just one anyway, usually it was 3 or more. In that build they get traits

Points:

Ill part with this:
Intercessor: 20pts
Assault Intercessor : 19pts
Scouts: 14 pts
Tac Marine: 15pts
Incursors: 21pts
Infiltrators: 24pts/ 34 Helix Adept

T Fire Cannon: 85 / 45 gunner (Total130)
Outriders : 45 ea
Invader ATV: 80 with Onslaught cannon, 85 Multimelta
Judicar: 85pts
Bladeguard Vets: 35 tpts
Bladeguard Ancient: 85pts

Hope for Hordes?:

Yes, you just need to prioritize blast weapons as your targets. Most lists building on a single detachment will limit response to horde killing beyond blasts. large units just run in blobs like in AoS now

How does the Shooting Phase in 9th work?:

Read 8th ed you will know, its same

CP:

you start with 12 CP, you gain an additional 1 CP at the start or Command Phase of every turn. % turn games so total of 17 CP over course of game. Your base detachment that has warlord is free any additional detachments you have to pay for. 2CP for a patrol, 3 CP battalion, Spearhead, outrider, or Vanguard. 3CP for a super Aux detach

Brigades being used?:

some may, but with point increases dont see tons of brigades running around. By time you pay the fast attack, Elite and Heavy tax not many points left to take advantage of more slots

Falling back:

To fall back is a stratagem now, so only one unit can and it costs CP. Its one of the 6 basic Strats all armies get. This is expanded from the base 3 they used too

okay let me clarify, the strat allows escape from tri pointing. non tri pointed units can still fall back but risk attacks from the new strat

Drones:

Have not seen the app, drones work same, but large shield drone units are susceptable to blast weapons hitting them hard. Tau still have fly so can fallback and shoot. Lots of points changes. its a huge munitorium style manual with rulesbook much like that came with last Chapter Approved giving all the points. Off hand I know most of the marines points

"but fly doesn't let you fall back and shoot":

your correct, just checked, fly units do loose fall back and shoot ability. My appologies, I dont play Tau or Eldar so not really and issue with my armies. Basically no falling back and shooting unless a strat or unit ability

"BS you're a playtester because you don't know the fly fallback change"

Yeah sorry I dont build armies way you like..lol. I play IH body press with Levi dread, I play BA, I play Astra Militarum, those are my main armies. Only fly units I ever reallyused with shield captain on dawneagles and I dont tend to fall those back as I use them like jam units

Knights:

The crusader I cannot answer as there was a typo on point cost for knight in test packet. Had it listed for 3950pts base..lol. That said a Paladin is 310pts base, 10pts for 2 stubbers, 100pts for battlecannon, then 30 for chainsword. So 450pts total

Any changes that'll shake up the meta?:

I am not sure what was thought on morale, only big notices I have seen is if you want to run a large screen of conscripts you can now, they dont all run. Morale was a miss in my opinion. AP values are staying about the same, smaller table is a thing but armies are smaller too and hordes cant stretch the board due to coherency so it works oddly enough. No major weapon changes other than blast. multi shot weapons getting blast is only profile change. Found it funny on eliminators shooting a squad over 6 they get 9 shots now if right ammo used

 bullyboy wrote:
So many pages for a rule that no one is going to think twice about after a few games.

As with a lot of these changes, it looks like they are trying to punish the extremes that were making the game unfun. The arbitrary number of 5 is not really an issue, and running 6 models is not going to be a problem because you will just stagger them accordingly until you take a casualty, then you can forget about it. The key is it stops those 20-30 men long lines that were getting buffs from 40" away while holding an objective at the other end.

If this makes the game more dynamic by not allowing easy screens (hello, buff to melee), then it's a plus. The game needs more fluidity and I'm hoping we get closer to that with this ruleset. In reality, this rule is a non issue as soon as you remove yourself from the 8th edition mindset.

And yet, again, you can still stretch a 30 man squad 43". So your example is literally still possible. If they were trying to stop a 30 men long line that was getting buffs from 40" away from holding an objective at the other end, they literally failed at that.

So either they're really bad at doing things, or that wasn't the point of this change.

The unit coherency check doesn't specify that you have to make an attempt to regain coherency, so you could theoretically start removing models from the center of the line and suicide units down to 1 model on purpose. Are there any situations where this could be beneficial? The models don't trigger any rules for being destroyed, so my idea of having Ynnari characters regain wounds is out.

Edit: I think you may be able to drop an enemy character or unit out of engagement range if you are charged by 2+ units.

The bit where he initially said only one unit can fall back and it costs CP and then walked it back and said "no actually any amount can fall back, that one is only for escaping a tri-point," which flatly contradicts what he said before, seems a pretty obvious sign it's a faker.

Same for the thing about being able to fall back and shoot.

If it is a real playtester, it's someone with a very poor grasp of the basic rules, and you would hope someone that bad at remembering things would not be one of their playtesters.

 Oaka wrote:
The unit coherency check doesn't specify that you have to make an attempt to regain coherency, so you could theoretically start removing models from the center of the line and suicide units down to 1 model on purpose. Are there any situations where this could be beneficial? The models don't trigger any rules for being destroyed, so my idea of having Ynnari characters regain wounds is out.

Make charge for enemy harder Even at the expense of more models comes to mind. rare though

yukishiro1 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So many pages for a rule that no one is going to think twice about after a few games.

As with a lot of these changes, it looks like they are trying to punish the extremes that were making the game unfun. The arbitrary number of 5 is not really an issue, and running 6 models is not going to be a problem because you will just stagger them accordingly until you take a casualty, then you can forget about it. The key is it stops those 20-30 men long lines that were getting buffs from 40" away while holding an objective at the other end.

If this makes the game more dynamic by not allowing easy screens (hello, buff to melee), then it's a plus. The game needs more fluidity and I'm hoping we get closer to that with this ruleset. In reality, this rule is a non issue as soon as you remove yourself from the 8th edition mindset.

And yet, again, you can still stretch a 30 man squad 43". So your example is literally still possible. If they were trying to stop a 30 men long line that was getting buffs from 40" away from holding an objective at the other end, they literally failed at that.

So either they're really bad at doing things, or that wasn't the point of this change.

It still restricts the total distance, and the with the buff to blast, that unit might start dwindling a little quicker and get a lot shorter. It's obvious they don't want singular units spread across the table interacting with so many different parts of the battlefield at once. They want one unit doing one job.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The bit where he initially said only one unit can fall back and it costs CP and then walked it back and said "no actually any amount can fall back, that one is only for escaping a tri-point," which flatly contradicts what he said before, seems a pretty obvious sign it's a faker.

Yeah, it probably is, but I did my due diligence anyways just in case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
The unit coherency check doesn't specify that you have to make an attempt to regain coherency, so you could theoretically start removing models from the center of the line and suicide units down to 1 model on purpose. Are there any situations where this could be beneficial? The models don't trigger any rules for being destroyed, so my idea of having Ynnari characters regain wounds is out.

Make charge for enemy harder Even at the expense of more models comes to mind. rare though

Coherency check is after Morale though, so they'd already charged you at that point.

Maybe to die your way out of combat?

 bullyboy wrote:


It still restricts the total distance, and the with the buff to blast, that unit might start dwindling a little quicker and get a lot shorter. It's obvious they don't want singular units spread across the table interacting with so many different parts of the battlefield at once. They want one unit doing one job.

Right. But it doesn't prevent the thing you said it was designed to prevent. So either they are really bad at rules or it wasn't meant to prevent that. Similarly, if it's "obvious they don't want singular units spread across the table," and that they want "one unit doing one job," their attempt to make that happen doesn't work. So again, either they're really bad at rules or it wasn't meant to prevent that.

If they wanted to prevent that, "all models have to be within X of every other model" was a much simpler way to nip that in the bud, without any of the weird loopholes and edge cases this approach produces. So we have to think there's some reason they really wanted to still allow 30 man units to block out a whole table edge, so much so that they didn't take the much easier option to stop it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That means Castles (excluding that one Tau castle people like to bring up that moves to the centerboard early game) need to start moving earlier in the game when more of the opposing army is still in play, which is good for the game. Plus shorter game.

Wait...it will actually be 5 turns? So only 4 turns to score? That's going to be a really tight squeeze to max out.