Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't know. I play farsight breachers and the amount of time I'm at middle (10") or even close range (5") is surprising. I also have a stratagem to be at close range at long range (15").

Yeah, strike squads are more reliable and easy to use but right now ap 0 is just like doing nothing agaisnt space marines and sororitas. And for my playstile Breachers work much better.

That doesnt mean I dont use strike squads, I use both, but each one has his place and they both do is work.

I can totally see 20 man warrior squads designeds to run the middle of the board have 10 of each weapon.

I would imagine the strategy for Reapers will involve rapid insertion via Night Scythe/Monolith portal.

 Sasori wrote:
Why are you not a fan of the Plasmacyte? Assuming in the regular Dex the Destroyers are 3-6, it seems really good. The buff can be extremely relevant, getting to strength 8 on the reap blade. Worst case, it can take something like a Lascannon shot if needed to keep the rest of the unit alive. yeah, the 1 in 6 chance to kill a destroyer isn't amazing, but if RP is improved it may not be that huge.

I've also revised my opinion of the Plasmancer as well. My main concern is it seems like our HQ slot going to be super competitive now.

You know, I was going off gut instinct to justify it, as the potential to kill off a 40 point model seemed insane, but you're right. Turns out, there are actually quite a few potential uses for the damn thing. I'm working off the (very tenuous) rumours that they do cap at 3 units per model, that they cost ~40 points each and the plasmacyte is an additional 15, bringing the squad to 135 points; a bit less than 7 intercessors in the new rules. So, here's some facts I found interesting:

-Other than a few cases, the reap-sword outperforms the threshers in almost all situations. If we have the option in the codex to arm all with swords, it's usually the right way to go.
-Those cases aren't always trivial; one of them is T4 W1/2 any save, no inv, where threshers are always just a little better.
-With infusing, S8 makes a huge difference against T4, making the reap-blade superior, and S6 threshers are better vs T5 W1/2 as you might expect from the +1S.
-T3 is also much weaker to the threshers after infusion; GEQ get mulched, as you'd anticipate, expecting to take over 10 casualties from a full strength attack vs 6 uninfused.
-Surprising one: against T5 or lower units, infusing and losing 1 destroyer still on average gives you 95% of the damage output as not infusing; i.e. infusing if you reach combat with full model count is almost always the best decision
-Unfortunately, vs high T models, infusing is extremely swingy: losing 1 thresher model (the ideal) reduces you to on average ~85% of your strength if you hadn't infused; if a model doesn't die, you're about 55% stronger.
-Because rerolling 1's to wound is multiplicative, the Skorptekh lord helps most vs multiwound models where the damage output really matters. Not shocking, but means between the blast gun, claw and reroll aura, it's a surprisingly well rounded unit for any match up.
-Slightly interesting aside: against many units in the game, D2 vs D3 is a lot bigger of a disparity than it looks, which manifests here also. VS a character with 5/6 wounds, D2 needs to hit an extra time, and VS W3 units, it's the same. As a fair amount of melee units have W3, you really want to keep the sword guy alive.

So, my intuition is completely wrong. Despite how it seems, the plasmacyte seems exceptionally useful; it will either eat a high damage shot for the unit, in which case that's 15 points spent to save 40 - a great trade, or it buffs the unit immensely in combat, and the backfire isn't as extreme as it looks. These guys are massive damage dealers and move very quickly. The downside is obvious - against other melee units, they really need the charge, and no inv is a huge disadvantage because they will just melt. Still, I'm glad I did the analysis, I don't feel like much of this was particularly obvious at all!

 IHateNids wrote:
I view them like the Deathwatch Shotguns, or like the Fire Warrior Breacher Pulse-thing-I've-forgotten-the-name-of that did more damage the closer you got to it. Both are extremely viable weapons, but must be used for a different tactical role, usually involving a transport for a breach-and-clear kind of maneouver.

Remember when Fish of Fury used to be a viable tactic? Back when Necrons had to use a massive and slow deep-striking tank or a HQ relic to move quickly across the battlefield?

Some speculative fun, I think our Canoptek units, or at least some of them, will be able to innately overwatch

I've been trying to wrap my head around what units might get the ability and the only other one I can think of might be the monolith and the new destroyer

Acolytes look sweet.

Eyjio wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Why are you not a fan of the Plasmacyte? Assuming in the regular Dex the Destroyers are 3-6, it seems really good. The buff can be extremely relevant, getting to strength 8 on the reap blade. Worst case, it can take something like a Lascannon shot if needed to keep the rest of the unit alive. yeah, the 1 in 6 chance to kill a destroyer isn't amazing, but if RP is improved it may not be that huge.

I've also revised my opinion of the Plasmancer as well. My main concern is it seems like our HQ slot going to be super competitive now.

You know, I was going off gut instinct to justify it, as the potential to kill off a 40 point model seemed insane, but you're right. Turns out, there are actually quite a few potential uses for the damn thing. I'm working off the (very tenuous) rumours that they do cap at 3 units per model, that they cost ~40 points each and the plasmacyte is an additional 15, bringing the squad to 135 points; a bit less than 7 intercessors in the new rules. So, here's some facts I found interesting:

-Other than a few cases, the reap-sword outperforms the threshers in almost all situations. If we have the option in the codex to arm all with swords, it's usually the right way to go.
-Those cases aren't always trivial; one of them is T4 W1/2 any save, no inv, where threshers are always just a little better.
-With infusing, S8 makes a huge difference against T4, making the reap-blade superior, and S6 threshers are better vs T5 W1/2 as you might expect from the +1S.
-T3 is also much weaker to the threshers after infusion; GEQ get mulched, as you'd anticipate, expecting to take over 10 casualties from a full strength attack vs 6 uninfused.
-Surprising one: against T5 or lower units, infusing and losing 1 destroyer still on average gives you 95% of the damage output as not infusing; i.e. infusing if you reach combat with full model count is almost always the best decision
-Unfortunately, vs high T models, infusing is extremely swingy: losing 1 thresher model (the ideal) reduces you to on average ~85% of your strength if you hadn't infused; if a model doesn't die, you're about 55% stronger.
-Because rerolling 1's to wound is multiplicative, the Skorptekh lord helps most vs multiwound models where the damage output really matters. Not shocking, but means between the blast gun, claw and reroll aura, it's a surprisingly well rounded unit for any match up.
-Slightly interesting aside: against many units in the game, D2 vs D3 is a lot bigger of a disparity than it looks, which manifests here also. VS a character with 5/6 wounds, D2 needs to hit an extra time, and VS W3 units, it's the same. As a fair amount of melee units have W3, you really want to keep the sword guy alive.

So, my intuition is completely wrong. Despite how it seems, the plasmacyte seems exceptionally useful; it will either eat a high damage shot for the unit, in which case that's 15 points spent to save 40 - a great trade, or it buffs the unit immensely in combat, and the backfire isn't as extreme as it looks. These guys are massive damage dealers and move very quickly. The downside is obvious - against other melee units, they really need the charge, and no inv is a huge disadvantage because they will just melt. Still, I'm glad I did the analysis, I don't feel like much of this was particularly obvious at all!

Very useful analysis! There are a few situations I didn't think of here.

 Charistoph wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I view them like the Deathwatch Shotguns, or like the Fire Warrior Breacher Pulse-thing-I've-forgotten-the-name-of that did more damage the closer you got to it. Both are extremely viable weapons, but must be used for a different tactical role, usually involving a transport for a breach-and-clear kind of maneouver.

Remember when Fish of Fury used to be a viable tactic? Back when Necrons had to use a massive and slow deep-striking tank or a HQ relic to move quickly across the battlefield?

I do actually

If we starded doing that with Ghost Arks, it might be decent

Or rather, I am hoping that Night Scythes become useable again, because thats what I wanna use

 IHateNids wrote:

I do actually

If we starded doing that with Ghost Arks, it might be decent

Or rather, I am hoping that Night Scythes become useable again, because thats what I wanna use

If Nightscythe had rules to drop its cargo at the end of its movement it would open so much possibilities for underwhelming units (Lychguard, Gauss Immortal, Warriors with Reapers). But seeing how 9th did not change vehicule rules, i'm not optimistic. On the other hand if GW wants to sell those new Monoliths, they need to change Tomb World deployment rules so maybe there is hope.

In 7th Night Scythes had a rule that explicitly let them do so. We might just get that back?

Speculation.

Invasion Beams will allow us to deploy troops at any point during the move, at the cost of shooting that round.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Speculation.

Invasion Beams will allow us to deploy troops at any point during the move, at the cost of shooting that round.

Tbh I really wouldn't mind that, tesla destructors are nice but getting a squad out would be good.


Also I like it how they made a direct reference to the old necron pariah models in the necrons through the ages article

Talking about the old Pariahs was conspicuous to me considering things that have been memory holed usually stay in there.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/10/fort-building-warhammer-40000-style/

Necron stele have some rules in here.
Have to be set up within 12" of each other
12" bubble of +2 leadership. (yes, it goes to 12)
Transdimensional Abductors Range 12, Assault d3, S4 -3AP, D3
Short range antiprimaris zappers, apparently.

Translocation Protocols, Cryptek performs an action in movement phase, remove a stele from the battlefield, put it anywhere not within 9" of enemy during your next Reinforcement step.

Basically you set them up in your deployment phase, and your crypteks teleport them forward on turn one.

Leadership 12 bubble slightly alters MSU considerations.

No idea if that's all they do.

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/10/fort-building-warhammer-40000-style/

Necron stele have some rules in here.
Have to be set up within 12" of each other
12" bubble of +2 leadership. (yes, it goes to 12)
Transdimensional Abductors Range 12, Assault d3, S4 -3AP, D3
Short range antiprimaris zappers, apparently.

Translocation Protocols, Cryptek performs an action in movement phase, remove a stele from the battlefield, put it anywhere not within 9" of enemy during your next Reinforcement step.

Basically you set them up in your deployment phase, and your crypteks teleport them forward on turn one.

Leadership 12 bubble slightly alters MSU considerations.

No idea if that's all they do.

I'm hoping that from the looks of each model they have 2 of those guns each. Also no idea why its assault (I wish they made it blast not gonn lie)

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/10/fort-building-warhammer-40000-style/

Necron stele have some rules in here.
Have to be set up within 12" of each other
12" bubble of +2 leadership. (yes, it goes to 12)
Transdimensional Abductors Range 12, Assault d3, S4 -3AP, D3
Short range antiprimaris zappers, apparently.

Translocation Protocols, Cryptek performs an action in movement phase, remove a stele from the battlefield, put it anywhere not within 9" of enemy during your next Reinforcement step.

Basically you set them up in your deployment phase, and your crypteks teleport them forward on turn one.

Leadership 12 bubble slightly alters MSU considerations.

No idea if that's all they do.

I'm hoping that from the looks of each model they have 2 of those guns each. Also no idea why its assault (I wish they made it blast not gonn lie)

It's Assault because they can move.

But Pistol would've been better.

While everything depends on points costs and the statline, these do not look like they are worth taking right now, even in a vacuum. It gets worse when you look at the hammerfall bunker.

I'm hopeful the statlines and points will balance these out, but it's really starting to get hard to not be annoyed when comparing to the new stuff the primaris is getting.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/10/fort-building-warhammer-40000-style/

Necron stele have some rules in here.
Have to be set up within 12" of each other
12" bubble of +2 leadership. (yes, it goes to 12)
Transdimensional Abductors Range 12, Assault d3, S4 -3AP, D3
Short range antiprimaris zappers, apparently.

Translocation Protocols, Cryptek performs an action in movement phase, remove a stele from the battlefield, put it anywhere not within 9" of enemy during your next Reinforcement step.

Basically you set them up in your deployment phase, and your crypteks teleport them forward on turn one.

Leadership 12 bubble slightly alters MSU considerations.

No idea if that's all they do.

I'm hoping that from the looks of each model they have 2 of those guns each. Also no idea why its assault (I wish they made it blast not gonn lie)

It's Assault because they can move.

But Pistol would've been better.

Actually you've made me realise something, as I'm assuming this is a vehicle its weapons are basically pistols anyway right? So it'll be able to shoot people who charge it as per the new rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
While everything depends on points costs and the statline, these do not look like they are worth taking right now, even in a vacuum. It gets worse when you look at the hammerfall bunker.

I'm hopeful the statlines and points will balance these out, but it's really starting to get hard to not be annoyed when comparing to the new stuff the primaris is getting.

I agree completely. At least with the convergence its 3 separate models so it'll take time to bring all 3 down whereas the bunker is a single static object, but for what the bunker does the points better balance out these models

Edit : unless I'm mistaken I've actually realised something quite interesting about the starstele. With the rules for teleporting them around you can: 1, declare a cryptic is gonna teleport them, 2, fire then in shooting phase, 3. Finally at the end of your turn take them off the board. Quite good at getting them out of the way of anti tank weapons and still allowing them to shoot in your turns

A bit situational with our 12 inch range but it does mean you can fire them at a nearby enemy unit to soften it up and then redeploy them elsewhere next turn to strengthen a flank so that's actually a bit flexible for the unit again depending on how many guns it actually mounts

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Talking about the old Pariahs was conspicuous to me considering things that have been memory holed usually stay in there.

Even stranger when you realize that they never once talked about Flayed Ones.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Talking about the old Pariahs was conspicuous to me considering things that have been memory holed usually stay in there.

Even stranger when you realize that they never once talked about Flayed Ones.

On the "Face Off" stream didn't they mention another reveal show in 3 weeks time? That'd be right after the core release.

It might be wishful thinking but I would love it if the last Rumor Engine image was Flayed One related.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/10/fort-building-warhammer-40000-style/

Necron stele have some rules in here.
Have to be set up within 12" of each other
12" bubble of +2 leadership. (yes, it goes to 12)
Transdimensional Abductors Range 12, Assault d3, S4 -3AP, D3
Short range antiprimaris zappers, apparently.

Translocation Protocols, Cryptek performs an action in movement phase, remove a stele from the battlefield, put it anywhere not within 9" of enemy during your next Reinforcement step.

Basically you set them up in your deployment phase, and your crypteks teleport them forward on turn one.

Leadership 12 bubble slightly alters MSU considerations.

No idea if that's all they do.

I'm hoping that from the looks of each model they have 2 of those guns each. Also no idea why its assault (I wish they made it blast not gonn lie)

It's Assault because they can move.

But Pistol would've been better.

Actually you've made me realise something, as I'm assuming this is a vehicle its weapons are basically pistols anyway right? So it'll be able to shoot people who charge it as per the new rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
While everything depends on points costs and the statline, these do not look like they are worth taking right now, even in a vacuum. It gets worse when you look at the hammerfall bunker.

I'm hopeful the statlines and points will balance these out, but it's really starting to get hard to not be annoyed when comparing to the new stuff the primaris is getting.

I agree completely. At least with the convergence its 3 separate models so it'll take time to bring all 3 down whereas the bunker is a single static object, but for what the bunker does the points better balance out these models

It's pretty ridiculous at this point. I wouldn't get my hopes up for the stats and points to even it out.
The weapon on our starstele is a big let down. Leadership bonus? Really? That's way better than an ability that let's you target and fire at EVERY unit in range.

The one thing I have seen someone point regarding the bunker is usually unmanned imperial stuff is actually a 5+ and maybe the heavy bolters will be a special variant were they fire more shots but have less range which if its true would do a bit to balance them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
It might be wishful thinking but I would love it if the last Rumor Engine image was Flayed One related.

Well if the are doing away with rubbish finecast you might not be wrong about that

 Galas wrote:
I don't know. I play farsight breachers and the amount of time I'm at middle (10") or even close range (5") is surprising. I also have a stratagem to be at close range at long range (15").

Yeah, strike squads are more reliable and easy to use but right now ap 0 is just like doing nothing agaisnt space marines and sororitas. And for my playstile Breachers work much better.

That doesnt mean I dont use strike squads, I use both, but each one has his place and they both do is work.

I can totally see 20 man warrior squads designeds to run the middle of the board have 10 of each weapon.

Sororitas? Isn't breacher ap2? So basically vs sororita you trade range for wounding on 2+

tneva82 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I don't know. I play farsight breachers and the amount of time I'm at middle (10") or even close range (5") is surprising. I also have a stratagem to be at close range at long range (15").

Yeah, strike squads are more reliable and easy to use but right now ap 0 is just like doing nothing agaisnt space marines and sororitas. And for my playstile Breachers work much better.

That doesnt mean I dont use strike squads, I use both, but each one has his place and they both do is work.

I can totally see 20 man warrior squads designeds to run the middle of the board have 10 of each weapon.

Sororitas? Isn't breacher ap2? So basically vs sororita you trade range for wounding on 2+

Most competitive sororitas armies I have faced go full on Bloody Rose, or they don't have literally ALL of their army in range of imagifiers.

So much for most produced box ever. The box went up I went to buy it straight away and it was gone.

I'm hoping they are doing it in waves

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
So much for most produced box ever. The box went up I went to buy it straight away and it was gone.

I'm hoping they are doing it in waves

In uk it lasted 20 minutes(it went on sale 5 min early) that's more than twice as long as many limited sets.

I agree that the CoD rules seem rather lackluster, but if the points are cheap enough I could actually see some use for these.

They give a pretty massive foot print of no deepstrike for the enemy. If one were to take 3 sets of them you could secure your entire board edge and flanks.

You could teleport them forward and block pathways and such

I missed out on the chance to preorder it too. Probably should have seen that coming tbh.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I agree that the CoD rules seem rather lackluster, but if the points are cheap enough I could actually see some use for these.

They give a pretty massive foot print of no deepstrike for the enemy. If one were to take 3 sets of them you could secure your entire board edge and flanks.

You could teleport them forward and block pathways and such

I get that you're looking for a silver lining, but I don't see it. The fact that the starsteles have to leave the board for a turn really cuts their balls off.
Honestly, we shouldn't be surprised. Of course the "Supreme Marines" have to be blatantly better than everything. I wouldn't mind if it were just an edge that GW was giving to the marines, but it's way past that. Space marines = gun
Everyone else = knife