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catbarf wrote: Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.
Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.
Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).
A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?
Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.
The phrasing of the rule makes me think they mean 3 shots total and not per die. However, one thing to keep in mind is that GW tend to use the word “dice” when they mean a single die, so minimum 3 per die could be the interpretation they intended if that is what they stated on the stream. Although I’m not so sure that the wording is actually ambiguous, but we all know how good GW is at actually writing what they mean.
'If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks' seems clear and unambiguous to me. It's not saying 'if a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, count any dice which show less than 3 as 3 instead'.
sweetbacon wrote: A volcano getting NINE shots at any unit with 6-10 models is bonkers and incredibly troubling. I really hope that's not what they meant.
I mean a likely 600 point model spending that kind of gun on infantry type units isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means someone can take a Shadowsword in their list and not worrying about getting swamped by hordes / infantry.
A Volcano Cannon will get no benefit from the blast rule for 10 or less models. But will magically go up to 9 shots when the unit is 11+ models. Seems legit.
sweetbacon wrote: A volcano getting NINE shots at any unit with 6-10 models is bonkers and incredibly troubling. I really hope that's not what they meant.
I mean a likely 600 point model spending that kind of gun on infantry type units isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means someone can take a Shadowsword in their list and not worrying about getting swamped by hordes / infantry.
It doesn't get 9 shots. It gets 3-9 shots against 10 or less, and 9 shots against 11+.
catbarf wrote: 'If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks' seems clear and unambiguous to me. It's not saying 'if a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, count any dice which show less than 3 as 3 instead'.
That is correct. A Blast weapon that that makes 2D6 shots will get between 3 and 12 shots against 6-10 and 12 shots against 11+
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/10 16:06:46
catbarf wrote: Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.
Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.
Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).
A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?
Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.
The phrasing of the rule makes me think they mean 3 shots total and not per die. However, one thing to keep in mind is that GW tend to use the word “dice” when they mean a single die, so minimum 3 per die could be the interpretation they intended if that is what they stated on the stream. Although I’m not so sure that the wording is actually ambiguous, but we all know how good GW is at actually writing what they mean.
Yea, my brain conceptualizes the Volanco cannon as three separate blasts. So it stood to reason (in my head) that each dice roll benefits from the blast dynamic. The rule wording is potentially fine if you forget about my mental musings - but also what BCB said above.
It’s definitely not outside the realm of possibility that this is the way GW think about it as well.
For units 1-5 Roll as normal.
For units of 6-10, each D3 rolled has a minimum of 2, each D6 rolled has a minimum of 3.
For units 11+ all rolls are max.
Vaktathi wrote: Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.
I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something
I won't complain much yet, because it makes Grotesque hordes a lot more risky. I hate those effin' things.
I mean, for the primary armies I run (tank heavy Guard and CSM's) these are all broadly powerful buffs with little downside. I just don't think an opponent is going to be terribly amused when a single Cadian tank commander mulches half a thirty-strong Boyz squad in one average round of shooting.
Against an opponent with a significant amount of blast weapons, large units are going to be actively more dangerous to you than they will be helpful, or at least won't be any more functional than smaller units. Whether an Ork Boyz Mob is 10, 20 or 30 models, it'll still only take about 2 rounds of max-blast Cadian Tank Commander fire to kill (the ~4 dudes left over on average afterwards in the 30 strong unit probably aren't particularly terrifying), and nobody's gonna buy full sized Loota squads ever again
Yeah there basically HAS to be other adjustments that we're not seeing yet because as it stands this looks naaaaaasty.
And I have LOADS of Plasma Cannons ready to go.
Yeah, without further adjustments, which I'm hoping will be revealed, I don't think this is a net positive change for the game. We haven't heard much on changes to terrain/LoS/wound allocation (unless I missed something), so hopefully that counterbalances some stuff.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
All this changes are good. The ones to vehicles , too. They add consistence.
Nothing of this has any relation to lethality on the game, as many people claim. Offensive and deffensive profiles are, by the most part, actually fine.
The problem with 8th, and 9th too, is the accumulation of bonuses on units, Magic the Gathering style.
I get it. We all love sinergyes. To make something that is greater than the sum of is parts. But things have become just too silly.
They should max it at 1 negative and one possitive stratagem and/or psychic power per unit, to make you spread your buffs in your army, diluting the offensive power, because buffs are multiplicative, both offensive and deffensive, the more you have the better they all become.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Another potential side-effect -- the cost of blast weapons could go up considerably as compared to straight shot anti-tank (lascannon), which could open up space for those weapons, too.
Insectum7 wrote: Also Thunderfires are going to be abominable against hordes with this.
Esp. with fire-twice.
Unless you drop the target unit below 11 models with the first shot.
Shoot it at a different target then, and spread the love.
Many 'fire-twice' abilities and stratagems don't allow that though; so marginally less useful on the 2nd shot.
Not that I know of, certainly not for the Thunderfire/Whirlwind Strat. And if you're shooting at real horde units (20+) you're pretty unlikely to kill them to less than 11 with the first salvo.
catbarf wrote: Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.
Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.
Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).
A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?
Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.
The phrasing of the rule makes me think they mean 3 shots total and not per die. However, one thing to keep in mind is that GW tend to use the word “dice” when they mean a single die, so minimum 3 per die could be the interpretation they intended if that is what they stated on the stream. Although I’m not so sure that the wording is actually ambiguous, but we all know how good GW is at actually writing what they mean.
'If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks' seems clear and unambiguous to me. It's not saying 'if a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, count any dice which show less than 3 as 3 instead'.
It *could* be ambiguous if GW conceptualizes each die as a separate blast as Daedalus suggested. That’s definitely not the way other rules are written, and I’d agree it’s a bit of a stretch to extrapolate that into such an interpretation as written. But again, GW rules writing.
Vaktathi wrote: Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.
I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something
Yeah there basically HAS to be other adjustments that we're not seeing yet because as it stands this looks naaaaaasty.
And I have LOADS of Plasma Cannons ready to go.
At this point I only have to assume GW is only drip feeding enough info to keep the community riled up over telling us anything that calms the community down.
If we're all arguing then we're still invested in what the next bit of news is, and what the rules look like.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jullevi wrote: But hey, this time GW spent lots of time to make rules as clear as possible.
A lot of 9th ed rules have been written like that. I approve of the more exact wording.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 16:47:37
Small sidenote: IF they make the terrain rules sooo awesome that they keep light infantry viable, the IG custom regiment trait "Wilderness survivors" (infantry is always in cover against shooting if it did not advance) becomes pretty bonkers.
Also some weapons like Eradicator or Hellhammer that negate cover could suddenly be more appealing.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Vaktathi wrote: Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.
I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something
I won't complain much yet, because it makes Grotesque hordes a lot more risky. I hate those effin' things.
Grotesques are broken AF. They are better than Custodes in many ways. Bonkers.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I'm really curious what bones they are gonna throw to hordes. It's looking a bit rough if you want to take 11+ models.
It could be blast weapons get a truly hefty point increase, as even their consistency against 6-10 man squads has gone up, but stuff like thunderfire cannons getting 12 shots max, firing twice, is horrifying as a horde player.
Considering what we got as a melee 'equivalent' to overwatch it's probably more like:
Any model with a thunder hammer now makes D3 attacks at -1 to hit. Roll 1 single die to determine how many attacks each model makes. A new stratagem has been added!
2CP: Smashiferous Bludgeonment. Reroll the die to determine how many attacks a unit with one or more thunder hammers make with the thunder hammers in the unit with the thunder hammers (e.g. if there are 2 thunder hammers and you roll a 1 on the d3 to determine that the unit with the thunder hammers would make 1 attack each with each thunder hammer you may pick that die up, roll it around in your hand, blow on it if desired and drop it, while rotating, onto the table to re-determine randomly how many thunder hammer attacks each model in the unit with one or more thunder hammers make with the thunder hammers they have)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
That would hurt my paladins, especialy if GW decides to add more blast weapons for multiple factions.
RIP factions that were designed with running 20 man squads in mind though.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Daedalus81 wrote: Another potential side-effect -- the cost of blast weapons could go up considerably as compared to straight shot anti-tank (lascannon), which could open up space for those weapons, too.
Like lascannons need a buff.
Lascannons aren't the single-fire AT weapon that needs help. The Railcannons and Vanquisher Cannons, real, tank mounted, AT weapons that are directly completing with multiple-shot multiple-damage weapons but are actually just a Lascannon because nothing can do more than 1d6 damage.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Daedalus81 wrote: Another potential side-effect -- the cost of blast weapons could go up considerably as compared to straight shot anti-tank (lascannon), which could open up space for those weapons, too.
Like lascannons need a buff.
Lascannons aren't the single-fire AT weapon that needs help. The Railcannons and Vanquisher Cannons, real, tank mounted, AT weapons that are directly completing with multiple-shot multiple-damage weapons but are actually just a Lascannon because nothing can do more than 1d6 damage.
well, except for the things that do more than 1d6 damage that are fine, like the neutron laser.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
Eldar- 4436 pts
