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Bonde - I do BOYZ-KNIGHT test to check, wheather my list has a chance.

Do I have a power to kill 30 boyz a turn?
Do I have a power to kill 1 knight a turn?

Twice?

If one of the answers is no, back to the papers.

Vineheart01 wrote:Only named psyker im aware of is Zogwort, whom we USED to have as a unit but "no model no rules" killed him along with Wazdakka (evilsunz)

Normally i'd say i really wish Zogwort would come back but unless they make Snakebites viable...he wouldnt be used lol. Ever.
He used to have a special ability that basically polymorphed characters. It was almost impossible to go off but MAN was it satisfying when it worked lol

In the end of 4th when the Psyker model and new codex was released that psyker model was Zogwort. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Ork-Weirdboy He has a large Z on some trinkets on his model. The John Blanche art in Zogworts profile matched this model as well. It was more than likely GW felt since it stood in as a generic Weirdboy they wouldn't bother make a second profile. Which is dumb as they did that with Prince Yriel, granted that was an additional model to the autarch not a 2-for-1.

Wazdakka was a model back from 2nd ed with an 'Eavy Metal conversion job back in WD in the early 90s. He just kinda existed in 3rd ed as a side-bar (a la

Vineheart01 wrote:yeah anything FW for orks im super skeptical of right now.

100% this. Having been back in 40k since 2003, I would say, FW is buying into a single edition when it's released. Otherwise you just take a huge chance your super expensive model may work. And with 4k on a 3-year cycle I would advise against it. I have a Mega Dread and Meka dread, 4 Grot tanks, Grot Mega Tank and would part with all in a heart beat.

 Tomsug wrote:
Bonde - I do BOYZ-KNIGHT test to check, wheather my list has a chance.

Do I have a power to kill 30 boyz a turn?
Do I have a power to kill 1 knight a turn?

Twice?

If one of the answers is no, back to the papers.

I do pretty much the same thing, just different targets

My lists (both orks and DG) need to able to get a guaranteed to kill on
1) 1 tank commander or
2) 10 intercessors or
3) 20 genestealers
even when you go second.

The big part is "guaranteed". It's important to understand that killing a mathhammer average of 10 intercessors will not cut it because defensive buffs or one or two bad rolls can set you up for failure.

 Tomsug wrote:
Bonde - I do BOYZ-KNIGHT test to check, wheather my list has a chance.

Do I have a power to kill 30 boyz a turn?
Do I have a power to kill 1 knight a turn?

Twice?

If one of the answers is no, back to the papers.

Killing one knight IMHO has always been unnecessary. On the other hand killing 30 boyz a turn is too low result, if we're talking about competitive lists. The equivalent of killing a knight should be killing 60 boyz (both 500ish points). Which is also unnecessary. I'm talking about orks lists, other factions may have different priorities.

I typically do the opposite when I do listbuilding: I don't have a body count result per turn in mind, rather I try to figure out what kind of redundancy my units have. How many infantries am I going to lose against an average SM TAC list? How many light vehicles? How many armored vehicles? Things like that. If I expect to lose too many points of stuff for 2 or all three categories I'm not bringing enough redundancy.

Blackie - yeah, 60 boyz should be better, but honestly in my meta, I hardly meet some GEQ or boyz or something, so I underestimate it a little.

But I speak about proof of attack abilities you speak more about defence abilities.

From the defensive point of view, I plan different than you. I spam. All or nothing. Infantry? So just infantry. Vehicles? All vehicles. Of course, there is alway some “except” like 6 SMG in all infantry list, or few trukkboyz and small kommandos now between the buggies and planes. But if he wants to kill me, just antitank works.

Btw. Killing one night even if you go second is always very useful...

I'd add to that list the power to kill a C'tan shard now...

That's not really a challenge for orks though. A lucky scrapjet can do it one turn

How do you define killing something a turn? Does that mean shooting only or also melee? Is it just raw potential or do you consider executional properties too?

Also, apart from spamming KBBs, how do you kill huge amounts of infantry a turn? You can use burning highway only once a turn and take a single Da Boomer, so what else do you use that holds it's value all game and is TAC?


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 Jidmah wrote:
That's not really a challenge for orks though. A lucky scrapjet can do it one turn

That's what I've been thinking about also. I actually wish I'd meet more C'Tan now before Necron players learn to play them more safely against orks. It only takes 2 slip-through rokkits T1&2, 2cp worth of ramming speed and 3 odd wounds in melee to bring down Nightbringer, which we can do much more cheaply than what the C'Tan cost.

killing a ctan is not really something you plan around. The only armies that will struggle against them are armies that go full force melee or shooty, which arent many.
a Ctan will take 4 phases to kill unless you get lucky and manage to cause 3 damage in 3 phases before his living metal (or other heal for the void dragon) kicks in. Always do overwatch if it charges, as thats a different phase, always have good dakka and choppy units, and of course mortals on the charge doesnt hurt either.

Really only other ctans right now are going to easily kill a ctan, since they can ignore their own rule (NB anyway i dont think the others have that rule). Everyone else just has to not ignore them until its too late, dont omit shooting them "because i cant kill them anyway" - thats the issue people do whenever i field Ghaz lately and its comical that later they wig out at out rude he is.

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
How do you define killing something a turn? Does that mean shooting only or also melee? Is it just raw potential or do you consider executional properties too?

Mostly shooting, smite or stratagems. I mostly consider melee a utility tool as I have limited control over what I can attack, but you are quite likely to get a charge off on horde units. So from a gut feeling, I consider boyz a viable answer to genestealers but not to a tank commander or 10 marines because they are unlikely to take out a backfield shooting units before it has done serious damage.

Also, apart from spamming KBBs, how do you kill huge amounts of infantry a turn? You can use burning highway only once a turn and take a single Da Boomer, so what else do you use that holds it's value all game and is TAC?

KBB, the scrapjets' big shootas, da boomer, nauts, burna bommer, dreads with stratagem and basically any infantry unit that is not gretchin. Countering light infantry really doesn't need much thought for most ork armies.
You really are just making sure you don't accidentally screw yourself over by taking too much anti-tank.

Honestly I'm not sure if orks can properly do a TAC list. They usually specialize in building Skew lists that are difficult to deal with. That's the issue of the design philosophy of orks. Cheap, lowish quality that you can (in theory) take lots of. GW got the lowish quality part down pat but kind of forgot to give us the cheapness. So we get by with spamming one statline type and hope the enemy runs out of the counter before you run out of the statline type.

TAC refers to what you can kill, "skew" refers to you defensive profile.

The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The "answer" plan is half the game, the other how to earn points which is often forgotten for mathhammering who and what kills what. I found Nanavati's explanation of his Clown-list really interesting as he said that he´s basically not very interested in fighting. Only positioning to score and hindering the opponent from scoring. It speaks volumes to why he´s such a good player imo.

Please provide links when you are referring to other sources. It's impossible to discuss something otherwise.

Without searching for what Nick has said, I'd bet that his list can answer all of the threats above anyways, and it's also important to understand that unlike orks, harlequins extremely fast and can ignore both terrain and unit blocking. If I wall off parts of the board with MBH and PBC and you don't have the abilty to take out 1-2 LRBT per turn, you are not going to get those primary points. I've gotten quite a few cheap wins with that strategy. A harlequin player will just flipjump over them and take the objective.

In any case, being able to take out the targets which are best at killing your stuff is an essential part of ork survival. You can't just sit on objectives with your entire army and wait for the end - first of all you might run out of orks before T4 and second your opponent might be ahead because of bring it down.

Source link: Art of War podcast (part 1)

Again, he´s talking about his scoring plan before the fighting plan and will basically fight when needs be, but that´s not the onus of the army. About the details you have to ask Nick himself. Obviously you need to fight, but as Bonde suffered, going into a game without a scoring plan is equally bad if not worse.

I can get behind that. My strategic priority is basically:
1) Can I prevent my opponent from scoring an objective? (Ignore if they would max out anyways)
2) Can I score an additional objective? (even when you are maxed out, only leave objectives unattended when your opponent has no way to get to them)
3) Is there an action I can interrupt/a unit I can kill to prevent my opponent from scoring a secondary
4) Is there something I need to kill/block in order to keep units doing 1 or 2 alive?
5) Is there a unit I need to kill to keep one of mine alive?
6) Is there a unit that can score VP by performing an action/being somewhere?
7) WAAAGH! No, seriously. Charge stuff that won't wipe you as often as possible, it's free movement and reduces enemy shooting.

Obvious these are weighted, not absolute. Safely scoring two objectives is better than taking away one from your opponent under heavy losses.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-northern-front-and-new-books/

Another ork placement with the goff list, but this time with tankbustaz and stormboyz in place of meganobz

 Jidmah wrote:
I can get behind that. My strategic priority is basically:
1) Can I prevent my opponent from scoring an objective? (Ignore if they would max out anyways)
2) Can I score an additional objective? (even when you are maxed out, only leave objectives unattended when your opponent has no way to get to them)
3) Is there an action I can interrupt/a unit I can kill to prevent my opponent from scoring a secondary
4) Is there something I need to kill/block in order to keep units doing 1 or 2 alive?
5) Is there a unit I need to kill to keep one of mine alive?
6) Is there a unit that can score VP by performing an action/being somewhere?
7) WAAAGH! No, seriously. Charge stuff that won't wipe you as often as possible, it's free movement and reduces enemy shooting.

Obvious these are weighted, not absolute. Safely scoring two objectives is better than taking away one from your opponent under heavy losses.

Well written.

It' s important to do all this scoring sheneningas, have a plan how to do them and without it, you can 't win. But you can' t score, if you' re dead. Prevent opponent to score = kill his stuff, that can score. Interrupt action = kill. Hold = kill what can kill you. Well, it' s also about screening and have more models there and ther, but in our army, there is nothing that hold a turn of concentrated fire, so you need to eliminate opponents dakka, or you' re wiped out T2.

These are 2 layers of planning an army and game that need to be in synergy. Old days of pure dakka are over of course! But you need to be brutal to do the kunnin' !


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miscNouns wrote:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-northern-front-and-new-books/

Another ork placement with the goff list, but this time with tankbustaz and stormboyz in place of meganobz

Boyz Nobz have double killsaw (pretty expensive!)
On other side neither Kommandos nor Stormboyz have a klaw.

See - he pass the boy-knight test. Wanna kill knights? Ghaz one turn in cc, Megamek in cc second turn and tankbustas from deepstrike and 3x doublesaw have a chance to kill even the third one! Kunnin but brutal!

 Jidmah wrote:
TAC refers to what you can kill, "skew" refers to you defensive profile.

The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

While true I do think that most skew lists will have a shallower pool of tools to deal with any given issue. Unless you luck out and have ork buggies who are diverse enough to have the tools for most issues. To put it another way. An ork buggy list could indeed by a TAC list with plenty of anti tank, anti infantry, mobility and okay durability. But I do think it's an outlier rather than the standard.

But as another example an ork infantry spam list will usually solve it's issues by simply bulling it's way through adversity.

Not really. Successful infantry lists always had the means to kill all sorts of targets through lootas, tank bustas, mek guns or warbosses.

So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?

 Jidmah wrote:
Not really. Successful infantry lists always had the means to kill all sorts of targets through lootas, tank bustas, mek guns or warbosses.

Exactly. Check the greentide lists from last few month on goonhammer or wherever. They always hve some “iron punch”

Thanks for the answers folks! Reading all your insights gives great depth to this army. I've got one more question:

With a little brief, I've now won 4 of my last 5 games with buggy/transport heavy Evils Sunz, but I'm feeling a bit dissatisfied with all of them. The problem seems to be that I need to rely too much on not rolling under average during the mid-game turns where I've not gained enough of a lead due to bleeding killy secondaries. I tend to struggle the most at T1, where it always seems hard to decide whether to pile on the mid-table objectives or pressure the opponent to his deployment zone. I usually turn towards the latter due to my speed and fear of loosing too much units to shooting (and not having LoS with my own shooty units), but that tends to leave my lines too thin to guarantee the majority of objectives surviving to T2. In fact, I think I've yet to score 15 vp T2 on any of my games.

So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?

Hello guys,
I'm moving to 40k form KillTeam. First I'll be playing Patrol Size Games.
And quick question. Is a Gitstoppa Shells and Kombi-Scorcha solid option or just a gimmick (assuming 500 pts game).

ninjaska wrote:
Hello guys,
I'm moving to 40k form KillTeam. First I'll be playing Patrol Size Games.
And quick question. Is a Gitstoppa Shells and Kombi-Scorcha solid option or just a gimmick (assuming 500 pts game).

The shells don't apply to the skorcha part, so the relic is mostly useless - even with a kustom shoota, you have a decent chance to never hit once during a game.

Aarre - very good question. I focus in T1 and T2 on lowering enemy mobility and firepower and keep my units alive to be able T3-T5 score.

But I ´ m not 100% sure it is the only or even right options.

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?

For me it's not rare to max out as late as T4 or 5. Orks don't have the staying power to hold a heavily contested objective, it's much more important to block movement, deny scoring and take away options. An old piece of MtG wisdom is that disrupting your opponent's plans is always a more powerful tool than accelerating your own plans.

 Billagio wrote:
So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?

Oooh! Depends on how many points you want to pay for it :-)

+1 A to all shooty weapons would not hurt. So Shootas go to 3A, Sluggas go to 2A etc. Nor would making Skar Boyz a data sheet be OTT.

Wild Boyz as a Troops choice, but with Choppa or Big Choppa only would give more options to a Codex.

 Billagio wrote:
So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?

There are a few things that could work. Make PK's a weapon to be feared again (getting rid of -1 to hit or making it flat 2 or 3 D), make choppa's -1 AP (I'm not sure that giving them -1 AP would be healthy for the game overall), or let boyz attack again if anything falls back from them. I would go with buffing PK's since that is a change that would buff multiple units that need it.

Honestly, boys might be "good enough" with two simple changes:

1) Choppas have AP-1. (Big Choppas go to AP-2 as well).
2) Engagement range for Boys is larger, so they can fight in more ranks.

This whole nonsense people often spout is "Well, 30 boys gets 150 attacks, that's OP", when it never happens due to not being able to get your boys into CC. Make that easy, and all of a sudden boys might do fine.