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I always figured that -1 AP would be a fair thing to have. sure you can have 30 boys but you cant ever really hit with all 30 boys and if you can, there probably isnt enough cover on the battle map you use.

Orks dies like flies, and Orks dont have durbility, but they should have great offensive abilities in return. Which i feel like they do in general, but boys only really feel like a menacing force when they are given Skarboyz. But if they were given str 5 to begin with, that would put nobz on str 6 and Mega Nobz too, which i feel like spirals things out of control.

But Boyz at -1 AP seems fair for melee. Im not sure what to do about ranged attacks. probably give shootas 3 attacks? Big shootas 4?

tulun wrote:
Honestly, boys might be "good enough" with two simple changes:

1) Choppas have AP-1. (Big Choppas go to AP-2 as well).
2) Engagement range for Boys is larger, so they can fight in more ranks.

This whole nonsense people often spout is "Well, 30 boys gets 150 attacks, that's OP", when it never happens due to not being able to get your boys into CC. Make that easy, and all of a sudden boys might do fine.

I like your last idea too as having 30 boyz only really increases their durbility, not their offensive capabilities in your turn as all 30 will never be able to reach anyway. You could argue by surviving better, that also adds offensive power in the end but.. yea thats not where im going. Staying power sure is important and bodies gives that, but with very little power to fight back at a distance, especially if you went for slugga boyz, then they could at least do melee better than what they do.

Or maybe remove the 9th edition coherency rules for ork boyz so they can reach targets more easily. Its not like Orks fight in dedicated armies with file and rank anyway. They are more like a big mob of rioters who are gathered by their shared love for burning things. Something, at least, that makes Boyz able to actually reach an enemy and attack with their full force easier than what it is now.


Also, for the love of god, reduce the amount of points for Grots.

i like the idea of increasing the combat reach for boyz.
The few times ive gotten the majority of the squad to swing its...quite brutal. But realistically its around a dozen that fight.

My favorite solution would be giving PKs flat 3 damage to bring back the hidden klaw. It would fix so many issues boyz and other units have right now.

 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite solution would be giving PKs flat 3 damage to bring back the hidden klaw. It would fix so many issues boyz and other units have right now.

It kind of doesn't, though. With only 3-4 attacks, it kind of still incentives you just to take min squads anyway, which is why trukk boys hit about as hard as 30 boys, as depressing as that is.

And the hidden Kill Saw sort of achieves this anyway, and boys still suck donkey balls.

Boys need a power boost, or they need to get cheaper. If they are supposed to be "scary", make em scary, or so cheap I don't care they suck.

I feel like the PK does deserve to be flat 3 damage, if only because then it makes taking Warbosses with them potentially feasible without always having to resort to the Killa Klaw to make them useful. It also makes Nobz/Meganobz squads in general more useful.

I do agree boyz themselves need some extra oomph, especially in a post primaris world. The main problem is that weight of attacks just isn't enough anymore, especially with how limited our attack range is. So either we make it easier for our attacks to get through (AP -1 as mentioned) or something where we add the caveat that attacks made with choppas give +1 to wound against non-vehicle and non-monster units when the unit equipped with them charged, were charged or heroically intervened.

This makes it so you still need to rely on the Nob or other Ork specialist units to deal with the hard targets like vehicles/monsters, but boyz can actually do the job for taking down regular and elite infantry.

Well we live in an era in which chainswords are AP-1 or even AP-2 from turn 3, bolters are AP-1 in turn 2 and primaris bolters are always AP-1 or AP-2 in turn 2, infantries are getting tougher, etc...

So it would make sense to get -1AP on basically ALL our weapons. In particular boyz, bikes, lootas, killkannon and big shootas need the AP boost. Maybe rokkits. I wouldn't increase damage though. It's just annoying when you roll hundreds of dice and achieve very little because enemies pass most of their saves: 70 dice from a 10man squad of bikes that costs 270 points kill 10 guardsmen (50 points) or 2 intercessor (40 points).

Maybe the role of boyz is not to kill osmething, but die holding the field and protecting the klaw / double saw. So called Kannonenfutr.

a quick question, does "Ramming speed" allow me to also charge further than 12 inches away given that i have 3 die to cast?

Or do i still need to charge max 12 inches away?

Just 12” - core rules second sentence in chapter “charge phase” - eligebale units to charge are 12” max.

To be more precise, the target you select for the charge must be within 12", but you can move more than 12 if you roll high enough.

Regarding Klaws, what to do re: PKs and Killsaws in light of the Power Fist changes is a bit of a puzzle. Obviously point changes are in order but I'd really like to see them avoid the same situation we're currently in where there's no reason for anything with the option to take a Killsaw over a PK to do so, or vice versa.

Killsaws should follow the Lightning claw route, where each one gives an extra attack, though I wonder if it should go down in AP to compensate for the extra attacks it would generate. As mentioned previously, Power Klaws would go up to flat 3 damage. So Killsaws will be one of the go to weapons for handling elite infantry with the flat 2 damage, while the power klaws handle bigger targets or 3W block guys.

Well, it's likely that killsaws turn into chainfists, which are d3 damage and flat 3 vs vehicles.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, it's likely that killsaws turn into chainfists, which are d3 damage and flat 3 vs vehicles.

In all likeliness, I think this is probably true, though personally given that we have a general lack of CC weapon diversity compared to Imperials, I'd prefer if our weapons were a little more different, hence my desire for what I mentioned earlier.

Hey guys, finally am wrapping up my Krieg at 5k and looking at doing Goff Orks with Ghaz. Been reading through here a bit and got a good basis as what appears to be things for sure to bring:

-Ghaz
-Painboy
-MANZ
Battlewagons/Bonebreakers
-Buggies

However besides this I was actually wanting to know what would the viability mean for a unit of x30 Skarboyz? Thinking of pairing them with a weirdboy so they can jump anywhere on the table.

 gmaleron wrote:
Hey guys, finally am wrapping up my Krieg at 5k and looking at doing Goff Orks with Ghaz. Been reading through here a bit and got a good basis as what appears to be things for sure to bring:

-Ghaz
-Painboy
-MANZ
Battlewagons/Bonebreakers
-Buggies

However besides this I was actually wanting to know what would the viability mean for a unit of x30 Skarboyz? Thinking of pairing them with a weirdboy so they can jump anywhere on the table.

Keep in mind that Ghaz lists are predominantly green tide oriented. So for the Skarboyz heavy lists, Ghaz is the main contributor to them getting into the competitive realm with his aura and rerolls. He's combo'd with a Big Mek in MA with KFF equipped with the Killa Klaw and with the Follow Me Ladz! Warlord trait to act as another warboss bubble on top of Ghaz's. Painboy is there to help the boyz blobs but keep him near Ghaz so he can heal him each turn with the Medi-Squig strat.

I would like boyz to be able to fight in three ranks again...

That's good to know though my wallet is crying a bit thinking of a minimum of x90 Boyz, was going to use Nobs to be my Skarboyz to.

 gmaleron wrote:
That's good to know though my wallet is crying a bit thinking of a minimum of x90 Boyz, was going to use Nobs to be my Skarboyz to.

Unfortunately, that is the nature of Ork lists. You either go all in on a theme or you don't bother.

I know flyers aren't that relevant in this edition give how important board control is at the moment, but besides the burna bommer for the kamikaze strat, are the other ones even worth looking at? The dakkajet can be a decent character sniper given how they can zoom behind characters given that LoS is much more limited compared to before. The blitza bommer seems to remain inferior to the burna bommer even with their SotB strat, so I don't think they have much value. Is the wazbom blastajet worth taking at all? If so, I'm guessing the KMK are better than the tellyporta blastas? They do also give a large KFF range for their base T1, though I'm not sure if it has any value past a buggy list since they're the only ones that can keep up.

There was interesting and succesful list with 2x wazboom and 2x burna aprox month ago.

I run flyiers a lot and they are fine. Blitz is useless. Dakkajet used to be fine to clear the screens, especially like Bad Moon, but I don' t use it any more now because Burna is better.

Wazboom with KFF and KMK is very good IMHO. You can hide under his KFF most of the army and has a firepower of aprox 3 SMG witch is decent.

Why use it (or flyiers generaly) - people tend to shooot at them in T1 and they are pretty tought. Usually opponents have a big problem to take 2 down a turn. Some short range unluckers are not able to kill a sigle jet a turn.

So reaon 1 - very decent T1 anti tank fire absorber. But take alway 2 yets at least. One will survive and do .....

..... Reason 2 - you move over the board whereever you want with firepower able to tear down rhino, whirlwind/manticora or thunderfirecannon, beefy character a turn. They can' t hide. You can kill units, hard to kill another way because of hiding out of LOS / out of range, or finish damaged units hiding behind the corner. As said last week - disrupting opponent plans could be much better than appliing your plans

Reason 3 - Any plane (but Burna is the best) can do massive mortal wound storm on crowd of characters and their screen vie Eadbutt - this makes you opponents deploy and move them less efective or suffer masive damage.

I run 2 wazbooms or wazboom+burna and my plan is to try 2xWazboom and 2xBurna.

Whole EedButt game is funny but has a serious problem. One eadbutt is not enought. You just scratch the paint. You don' t finish the job. You need to do it twice at least. So you need to have anought flyiers to Eadbut in T1 and T2. And because they will be the target number one, you need 2 flyiers to soak enemy fire and 2 of them to eadbutt = 2x wazboom and 2x burna.

The fact is, that if you put 4 jets on the table, the rest of you army is pretty safe. Nobody fire at them for first 2 turns.

And if you finish 6MW per unit storm in enemy main group of units on beginning of T2, you win the game, because what lefts? All characters are 4-6 wounds. Eridicators etc are unit of 3 per 3W. Even tanks are on half and start to be broken.

On one tournament, one Ultramarin player underestimated my wazboom and Dakkajet (Not even Burna!!) and let me to eadbutt them in his marching castle with bunch of auras etc. I went first and he was de-facto tablet T2 with wounded gulimen, some apothecar and half of tactical squad left on the table. Bad luck on his side and very bad played by him, but shows the power of concentrated Eadbutting.

 Billagio wrote:
So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?

I see it as 3 distinct issues. 1: Ork boyz lack dakka of any kinda that is worth mentioning. if you somehow get all 30 shoota boyz into range you are likely only killing 2 Tac Marines on average. The easy solution would be to make Shootas either Assault 3 or possibly even assault 4. The 18' range really hampers them, especially in an edition where Intercessors and HI are troop choices with ranged 30 weapons.

2: Ork boyz lack damage in CC thanks to everyone getting toughness increases. A shoota boy in CC does .22 dmg to a Tac Space Marine. In order to kill him you will need upwards of 9 shoota boyz. The Choppa boyz need 6 boyz to kill 1 Tac Marine. So before any points increases happen (And you know they will if we get buffs) You are looking at 48pts of Choppa boyz finally getting into CC to kill 18pts of Tac Marine, or 72pts of Shoota boyz. Giving Choppas +1 Strength and -1AP would go a long way towards making Choppa boyz good in CC again. And before anyone jumps on me saying "YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR!" remember, Choppa boyz have to be alive to use those CC attacks, and that isn't an easy feat when Aggressors were "nerfed" to only dump out 1 shot per 3.33 points compared to a Tac Marine putting out 1 shot per 9points. (lets not talk about their powerfists). A Single Choppa boy does .33 dmg to a SM right now. If you gave him +1 Strength and -1AP it becomes .66dmg, so it still takes 4 Choppa boyz to guarantee 1 dead SM a turn.

And finally 3: Ork boyz die far too quickly right now for what little damage they can pump out. So the question becomes if GW gives them the above buffs to DMG output, should they stay the same? and if they don't, what would be a good durability boost to make them worth taking in quantity. Honestly, I don't like the 2nd wound mechanic for boyz, especially with how little faith I have in GW correctly pricing them. SM got a 2nd wound for 3ppm or 20% increase in price, For orkz, a 20% increase would be 1-2pts, I don't see that happening, I think it more likely they would do 3+ maybe even as high as 5pts extra. Regardless, I think the better buff for Ork boyz would be an increase to T5 and maybe giving them 5+ armor which actually lets them get an armor save occasionally against things like Bolt rifles or run of the mill bolters during tac doctrine turn.

What I don't want to see is all of the above happening because I can't imagine GW letting Ork boyz have that kind of damage potential and durability without going up to at least 12-15ppm.

 AarresaariAarre wrote:
Thanks for the answers folks! Reading all your insights gives great depth to this army. I've got one more question:

With a little brief, I've now won 4 of my last 5 games with buggy/transport heavy Evils Sunz, but I'm feeling a bit dissatisfied with all of them. The problem seems to be that I need to rely too much on not rolling under average during the mid-game turns where I've not gained enough of a lead due to bleeding killy secondaries. I tend to struggle the most at T1, where it always seems hard to decide whether to pile on the mid-table objectives or pressure the opponent to his deployment zone. I usually turn towards the latter due to my speed and fear of loosing too much units to shooting (and not having LoS with my own shooty units), but that tends to leave my lines too thin to guarantee the majority of objectives surviving to T2. In fact, I think I've yet to score 15 vp T2 on any of my games.

So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?

- Aarre, what does your list look like? I have been trying out an Evil Sunz mechanized list, but it has not worked out for me. I am thinking that Deathskulls might be the better Kultur:

I'm thinking of running something along the lines of:


The plan is to have both Bonebreakas (with 5+ Invuln) drive up into the face of the opponent and assault forward units, supported by the Wartrike, so that the opponent has to deal with the the hardest targets first.
In the meantime the Scrapjets and DeffDreads go to block off objectives while the Trukk Boyz capture the points. If the Bonebreakas or Trukk Boyz get assaulted, then the Dreads and Scrapjets will act as counter-charge units.

I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.

I think there are lots of things they could do to Orks that would make them a well rounded codex suited for 9th edition, but its whether we can trust GW to do it which they havent had a great track record when it comes to our army in general.

First off id like to see stratagems starting to be baked into units that correspond with them. We have started to see that with SM with Duty Eternal and CP upgrades being moved to units (Veteran Intercessors) and upgrades to pre-existing models like Chapter Master, Master of Sancity and Chief Apothecary. For example; Dreaded Death Machine. Have that included into the Deff Dreads datasheet. Same could be said with Mob Up, it literally only affects Boyz now so why not just add it to the datasheet?

Next I'd like to see a boost to survival. Orks are a resilient and tough species but it doesnt exactly show apart from T4. There should be a stratagem that is for Nobz and Warbosses that give them either a Transhuman like rule or -1 damage to reflect how tough they actually are. This rule is becoming more apparent in these later codexes. Quantum Shielding, Inner Circle for Deathwing Infantry, a strat for Primaris and Custodes. I dont think it would break Meganobz if all of a sudden they have access to this strat. They arent exactly brickwalls when there are plasma weapons with flat 2/3 damage and other weapons that have seen a boost in output.

On to army special rules, its probably only me that wants this but I would like an overhaul to some degree. GW just cant seem to get rules that are pretty much identical fair. And thats exploding attacks. Some armies have either 6s gen another hit, other gen another hit roll and others like Death to the False Emperor that allows weapons like the Deathguards flail to gen an additional D3 attacks..... Id like to see DDD get changed to 6s explode into additonal hits. Ive lost count how many times DDD has done nothing for me and thats not even going into how the core rules has unmodified 6s always hit. Would you think its too strong? I dont think so. You hear all the time how Orks just throw buckets of dice with shooting but I dont think thats true anymore. So many armies just out shoot us in terms of sheer volume of shots, and accurate shots at that.

Next I would like to see Waaagh! reworked. I know this is a big one! But I would like it to be something that builds up and has momentum like with Orruk Warclans and their Big Waaagh! but obviously tweaked for 40k instead of AoS. It seems like a trend that armies are going to get some sort of turn based benefit. We have seen it with Space Marines with Doctrines, Necrons with Command Protocols and some extent Grey Knights with their tides. Now im not saying we should loose advance and charge, but as it stands, to me the current iteration of Waaagh! doesnt make me feel like its anything close to the lore. I havent shouted Waaagh! for my Orks for a long time as to me it no longer feels like we actually have one.

The Ork Waaagh! should effect different units in different ways. What do Lootas get out of it? What about Flash Gitz? Our planes? Its like it doesnt exist for them at all.

On to wargear. This is a tricky one I think. Add too much AP or Damage and we will see units skyrocket in points. One for sure I'd like to see improved is our shootas of all kinds. The Big Shoota just doesnt do anything, its one of our iconic weapons and it might aswell be a glorified Heavy Stubber. It doesnt have the number of shots or the stopping power to even be worth adding to units that can take them unless they are forced too like our Buggies. But this largely applies to all our shoota weapons, from Supa to Deffstorm to your standard Boyz gun. They just dont hit hard at all. This moves on to our close combat weapons. Imperials and mainly Space Marines have just seen a huge boost in their melee weapons. AP1 chainswords for SM, +1 str across the line for all power weapons, better close combat weapon profiles on Dreadnoughts. We just dont hit hard enough in Shooting and Melee with an exception to a few good units.

I would actually like to see our Boyz get split up into different units: Shootas, Sluggas, Stikk-bommerz, 'Ard Boyz, Skar Boyz and Trukk Boyz. Each one getting a benefit for their specialisation or just not being forced to be a CP investment to actually get. And please for the love of Gork and Mork give 'Ard Boyz their 4+ save back, 2CP for +1 save is pretty damn bad.

Lastly Clan kulturs. They need a huge revamp. Why don't Snakebites work with Painboyz? Bad Moons dont really shoot all that great. Blood Axes just arent good period and Goffs have a pretty damn awful trait. Look at other melee Chapter Tactics out there..... puts Goffs to shame. Just imagine if Goffs had the +1 to wound like Blood Angels or +1 to hit like Space Wolves.

I could carry on with other changes but we would be here all day and this post is already huge haha!

The jist of the message is that I hope GW go above and beyond just stat line tweaks. I want the army to have meaningful and thematic rules. I want Orks to actually be threatening. We arent a cheap horde army like people expect us to be, and we dont have the quality of firepower or staying power our costing implies.

In regards to durability a faction-wide 6+ feel no pain I think would make sense

 gmaleron wrote:
In regards to durability and faction-wide 6+ feel no pain I think would make sense

What would a Painboy do though? And how would you envision Snakebites?

Faction-wide 6+ FNP would be a waste of everyone's time and not fix anything. Having pox walkers shot by battlecannons or similar weapons takes an insane amount of time to properly resolve, and they actually have decent chance of surviving multi-damage weapons.

Id rather go away from abilities that proc on 6s. As Jidmah has stated, it really slows down the game and in my personal experience 6+++ is way to swingy. You have matches where it rarely pops up and matches where you just get super luck and absorb more damage then you should have. Making Nobz more like Abberants with the -1 damage would be cool and thematic, but for Boyz I have no idea how youd make them more durable. +1 save wouldnt do much for them in a Marine dominate era. +1 wound would be idea but they would get too expensive and I cant see them getting +1 toughness either.

Agreed that 6+ proc abilities are generally something you don't want to stack too much of, especially when it comes to saves. I feel like for Ork boyz at least, the durability can only really come in 3 ways.

1. An extra wound. The problem is that this would inflate the price and be of dubious use given the 2W marine meta means a lot of weapons still do a lot of damage to our boyz units.

2. Be cheaper. I find this one unlikely given that GW's current design paradigm is to avoid promoting cheap hordes (even if exceptions to the rule keep popping up).

3. Higher saves. 'Ard boy saves of 4+ would have to be an option again and likely only through a separate datasheet or as a point upgrade since it makes no sense as a strat. Again, of questionable use since a KFF offers pretty much the same, if not superior, protection with how much AP-1 and AP-2 weapons are being thrown around.

I feel like support units should be what helps the durability of boyz IMO, who should instead be made more effective in offense, since it's really their damage output that makes you disappointed when they finally hit enemy lines. Whether that means Painboyz give a 5+ FNP instead, or if we get strats that are closer in line with whirling onslaught for Skorpekh destroyers, I think that's a better call than trying to make a unit that's largely meant to be spammed to be overly durable.

Can someone explain to me what a Gunwagon is?

Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).

I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.

So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?

Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??

I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.

What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?


Also for the Meka Dread i can only see statistics for the Rippa Klaw, yet Forge world sells a Mega saw as well? what characteristics does that have?